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LINK We're on a road to destruction if we don't make changes. Some thoughts on outrage and an idea to get human.

I normally don't post commentary here as I try to stay neutral and behind the scenes. I have several goals in building this community - one of which is to help bridge the growing divide in society. My thought was if I could raise the view of non-believers in the eyes of religious people, it could help them humanize what they may perceived as bad people. That was one of my motivations in adding Humanism text here... to give us a shared vocabulary of "goodness".

As I expected, almost everyone who joined here was a good person who wanted to make the community a better place. However, I became disappointed in the way that the majority of members (who were left-leaning) treated the minority who are conservative in positions unrelated to religion. Before you say, "oh, they started it", please remember, I'm not picking sides but only observing that contempt is a dangerous thing - especially in groups of people. Many of our conservative non-believers have left in the last few months.

When couples are fighting, they often try therapy. The best predictor of divorce is whether or not the couple has contempt for each other. Make sense, as contempt can only build if the other person is dehumanized first. In society today, contempt has grown to a level unmatched since World War 2. Social media, which machine-learning algorithms optimize what people see by how effective the content is in creating outrage and contempt (as it increases revenue), is a major contributor to today's growing unrest.

This makes me think of how we can help improve things here. I realize that part of the fun many members have is jumping in a thread of some daily outrage posted by members who are tacitly encouraged to find the most outrage-inducing posts. It's a drug, pure and concentrated. While it was not our intention to become a pharmacy, we are.
It's more obvious when you scan the groups and imagine them as assorted drugs in a cabinet. Some come in extra-strength, 72-hour doses.

Aside from the normal admonishments of "hey, tone it down!", I want to help find another type of communication for members that is unrelated to a topic. I'm thinking of something like "hey, how are you doing?". Many sites have "status updates" where you can post temporary things that are at a single-human level instead of some external outrage at a 3rd person or group. It's hard to build contempt at another human being who is sharing their personal, intimate feelings. The weakness of status updates is that it only shows up to your friends and only if they're keeping an eye on you. I'm hoping that we could do better.

Here's what I'm thinking the "status update" feature would look like. On the main page, we put a tiny form for "How you feeling?" (or similar), it either opens a form or pops a small window for you to enter 120 characters or so. We then put that as a comment to a single post called, uh, "How you feeling?" and perhaps even display the last 10 or so on the main page. You are encouraged to reply KINDLY to these "comments" - even more than on any other posts. The member will get alerts when people reply to the status update.

What do you think? Are we on the right track? Other ideas?

Admin 9 Apr 27
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99 comments (51 - 75)

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4

The idea has merit so I think it's worth a shot. Let's implement it and see how it goes. We can speculate but the only way to know if it'll work as hoped is to try it.

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Firstly, I love the idea of a "How are you feeling" post. It's a positive message rather than negative and an opportunity to be honest and supportive.

On another note, I've stopped regularly participating in this group due to the negativity and constant criticism of my posts and comments. I have a bit of a conservative slant and I find that most people here are on the extreme left bordering SJW, a vocal minority which has taken over everywhere else. I was hoping to find a community that wouldn't judge when I signed up here, but that's simply not the case.

Everybody judges. It is our nature. Otherwise we wouldn't know who to trust, who to like, who to be wary of. We all do it every day.

4

I think that a site like this should try to be as board as possible, because the one thing that would drive me away would be banal content, and because if there are people saying things I would find horrible, then I want to know about them and what they are saying. Part of the reason for joining was to learn about human diversity and hear things which challenge me.

But you can't please all of the people all of the time as they say, and it would be silly to bend over backwards to accommodate people who do not really want to contribute and would be happier elsewhere, you could easily go to great damaging lengths and then they go and make their own site elsewhere anyway.

4

I fully support the idea of a status update section where we treat each other with kindness. It happens that I just had some trauma. It would be nice to have polite exchanges so that such things can be aired.

These extreme differences—liberal/conservative, religious/atheist—they are only skin deep and in no way define who a person really is. It’s sometimes stimulating to banter about politics or religion but we should try to remember that each person, no matter what their opinion, represents something dear and special, to be revered and respected.

We have a saying down here "you need to get the dirty water off your chest before it festers and sours you".
Barmaids have been the traditional go to for men after their best friends, doctors and priests. Like good barmaids they are rapidly becoming extinct.

The thing is liberal/conservative is no longer skin deep. The conservative party line these days is 100% for putting children in cages for their parents "crimes", letting people die because basic healthcare is a "privilege not a right" and the millions of homeless, displaced and left behind people just arent worthy of life because they couldn't be " succesful" in the way these people define success. It's not about philosophy anymore, it comes down to whether or not you're ok with millions suffering and dying needlessly to further your political agenda.

@OpposingOpposum Demonizing and hating people because of their political opinions is not very rational or liberal. It’s tit for tat. At heart we are about the same. From a higher perspective we ARE the same IMO.

@FrayedBear I appreciate your response. A friend recently died. I cried at his funeral and I’ve had a week of feeling sort of bereft. The odd thing is that I had no idea he meant so much to me. It’s hard to understand. He was a generation younger also, but I held him in great esteem.

@OpposingOpposum it's about money.

@WilliamFleming horseshit. Some people have ethics some do not. Supporting mass murder is never ethical.

@WilliamFleming, @Wildflower exactly. If you can justify torturing and killing people for money you don't get to claim you are in any way a decent person or someone worth listening to. Ever. Period.

@WilliamFleming Understood. Can I try a rephrase to realign your perspective. What you actually grieve is the loss of opportunity to conclude the bucket list, conscious or subconscious, that you had in respect of future activity with your friend. I was similarly affected by the loss of my elder brother who I always had we would together share a friendly peaceful relationship in the future rather than the cat and dog aggressive one that existed for all but 6 months with the first three decades of our lives.
The answer I suggest is to get out there looking for those who will fulfil the aspirations that you had for your dead friend. IMO the only emotion that you should now have is the joy of the memory of the times that you spent tigerher possibly tinged with a little sadness on his behalf that he possibly did not do all that he wished to whether with you or others.
Lol tell your Companions of Health, Peace and Fulfullment that if they will not attend on you more satisfactorily then the FrayedBear will cast his curse at them!

@FrayedBear What you are saying is definitely a factor. Also I deeply empathize with the man’s father who is having to bear the worst loss of his long life. Projecting myself into that situation has not helped.

Now is the time for me to practice what I’ve been preaching on this forum—to think only true thoughts about the situation.

Time heals and life goes on. Thanks.

@OpposingOpposum I don’t know who you are referring to. Is someone justifying torturing and killing for money?

The point I am trying to make is that it is logically necessary to respect everyone, regardless of their opinions, because from a certain perspective we are all the same thing. Someone claiming to be liberal should especially demonstrate an open mind and tolerance for those whose opinions are different. In the final analysis no one really knows much of anything anyway.

If Adolf Hitler walked in I would treat him with respect and courtesy, even though I think he made horrible mistakes. At heart he is no different than Mother Teresa.

“Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”

—Martin Luther King, Jr.

@WilliamFleming I worry about your Adolf : Teresa analogy and do wonder if you have it the wrong way round. At least Adolf believed that he was doing it for the good of his people, Teresa believed that she was doing it for the good of her religion and her God.

4

@Admin What is the change you want to see here - and can we help you make it?

It is very hard to convey one's vision. Of that I'm certain.

The ugliness between "factions" is a thing - I doubt that truly a lot of members are actually involved but probably a small subset. They're just LOUD and vocal.

Tell us what you want to make happen. Maybe group originators can each find a way to participate and get that rolling.

BTW as a disabled person with chronic pain - a status update? I do NOT burden the world that way. Not here - and not on FB.

We will start with a minor feature idea but follow it up with exercises.

But equally how honest is it to reply to the question "how are you?" with "I'm OK" when in fact you are in screaming pain needing analgesic as a result of your physical symptoms and a very bad reaction to your monthly menstruation which is pushing you to padded cell insanity?
I understand that most people do not genuinely ask "how are you?" the question being as fatuous as the checkout chick saying "have a nice day".

@FrayedBear i always answer honestly - I do not ever give chapter and verse. It would freak out the folks who are more normative and that's never my goal.
You can give a piece of honesty without sending someone to therapy. 😊

@RavenCT I wasn't necessarily asking for c&v but a simple "not good", " up and down like a fidler's elbow", "wrong time of the month" I suggest is preferable and will elicit in most case appropriate sympathy or request for further information.

@FrayedBear quite true! But the Dr who deals with chronic patients caught me the other day... "How are you?" she said - " Oh I'm fine" I replied.
Then she said "No really ... How are you?" .
We were going to get down to brass tacks either way but humor is always a good thing.

@RavenCT Hmmm Doctors are a different kettle of narcissistic fish.

4

Hmmmm... I'm on the fence... Could be good... Not sure... I predict most members won't use it...

Agreed, the feature is a bit of a red herring as the key message is about communication and the pitfall of group speak. Oh, wait, did I just say that out loud?

4

I just think too many people are too assertive about what they believe. No, assertion is fine, aggression is the problem. We've moved from religious aggression to atheistic aggression; so many people knowing instead of thinking, pontificating instead of discussing, insulting instead of challenging. I'm not sure it can be helped. Maybe a lot of people feel they will just sink in the huge marketplace of opinion if they don't express themselves strongly.

Anyway, why not try out new ideas? Nothing ventured etc. Thanks for caring.

I've another long post idea that is about the new religious of personal truths. Will need oven mittens on that one.

@Admin reading your reply and cursorily considering it I visualised the children's toy where heads or pegs pop out of a hole in a board to be put down with a wielded wooden mallet whereupon another pops up to be similarly hammered down. And so on.
Considering that I have most unusually just vomited a part of my breakfast of vitamin pills, apricot juice, toast, butter and marmalade I was in need of a laugh. Thanks for the inspiration!

4

It's a great idea! Definitely on the right track.
I also think we can be more subtly assertive as opposed to too direct and hurtful. I understand certain things have to be said in a certain way and it's not deliberate intended harm. We're All adults and believe we are able to take constructive criticism in it's stride.

Yep, there are different languages being spoken.

@Admin and even when speaking English there are different understandings, nuances, past experience, beliefs and motives that all help to confound comprehension.

4

Good we need it

bobwjr Level 10 Apr 27, 2019
4

Please don't do this. On FB I can at least partly control the types of "status updates" I am forced to view, as well as the sheer volume of them. I really like the fact that you have created groups where people can share their lives, and friendships can flourish; that in addition to groups that are purely topical or pedagogical.

I really really really hope to never ever see these status updates in the main feed, though I do think having the option to share them in groups would be great. There is clearly a demand for that stuff, among some users. And those users can be in groups together (or already are).

@admin i watched this 2 part Frontline documentary the other day, about FB. Their initial ideology was strikingly similar to what I think im hearing from you... if we all can find our shared experiences, the whole world will naturally become more understanding and more happy... But what FB saw was an increase in divisiveness, as people found ways to connect with only those who agreed with them. It led to political movements like the Arab spring just as well as to the Russian fake news just as well to the growth of all sorts of hate groups.

This site walks a fine line with this "status update" idea, and at the same time allowing people here who do the same thing by blocking anyone they don't like. The groups feature (which I hated at first) actually allows and promotes freer discussion and will hopefully cut down on people who make the whole site harder to use, by disrupting the flow of discussion and idea sharing. From what I understand you had to tackle this issue in your "senate" group, so people could simply read and understand each other. Again, letting people segregate into groups is a great idea, but please keep the main feed free of popularity contests.

[pbs.org]
[pbs.org]

@MarkiusMahamius Great feedback! I'm thinking it could be another category that you can elect to see or not.

3

“...to help bridge the growing divide in society. My thought was if I could raise the view of non-believers in the eyes of religious people...”

A noble cause indeed; one I support 100%. But that is only one half of the task. You don’t save a marriage by talking only one member out of their contemptuous ways, and giving the other partner no support. It’s a two-way street.

What goes on in this site is not in view of any religious eyes. They aren’t welcome here.
And for the nearly two years I’ve been trying, I’ve had approximately zero success at raising the view of religious people in the eyes of non-believers.

People don’t come here to sacrifice themselves to those “inhuman others”. They come here to vent about them and lick their wounds. Same goes for the political divide.

I admire your desire to heal this problem, but I have to admit I have doubts that twitbook, whether it’s embraced or ignored, will solve that particular problem. I don’t think it’s status updates that we crave, but maybe status itself.

One thing I’ve noticed in my time here is how attuned we humanoids are, myself included though I’m loath to admit it, to the status conferred by points and levels.

If a point system could be devised by which members could assess each other’s “relative tribalosity” based on, for example, a three position rating - up, down, or neutral - with cumulative “T” ratings visible on the person’s profile, (you rate per member, not per encounter, but you can change that rating as often as you like) and higher cumulative ratings would gain access to site features not available to lower rated members...
who knows? Maybe people would compete by learning how to be civil?

Nah! They’d prolly compete to see who could keep the lowest score! Oh well, I tried.

skado Level 9 Sep 5, 2019
3

I'm sorry if our conservative members are feeling bad. I don't remember any ad hominem attacks, but if that's happening it should stop.
On the other hand, I fail to see what a "conservative" would be doing here, if by that you mean religious. If you mean politically rightist, again, it's hard to reconcile that with a group of agnostics and atheists, because Republicans are the antithsis of godlessness.
But okay, if some members think these people are trolls, they can't be blamed, but neither does it give anyone the right to disrespect them. I admit I'm confused.
As far as getting believers to think agnostics and atheists are "good people," good luck. Speaking personally for myself only, I could care less what they think. Nor do I engage them in debates or call attention to myself in any way. I just go about my business and mind my own. In fact, people without a religious affiliation are now the majority in this country. Why should I feel defensive and want to convince anybody of my goodness?
So I suppose overall I don't understand your concern, but I DO ask all fellow members to express disagreements based on issues and refrain from personal attacks.

3

Excellent post. Keep up the good work. 🙂

3

I like the idea of getting past all the vitriol, and I’m hoping we can all eventually find a way to do that. IMHO, we’ll be hard pressed to fix the world if we can’t even mend relations with each other. Whether we agree or not.

There are two conflicts identified here: so called conservatives who are Atheists feeling unwelcome by those of us liberating everyone from violent theocracy AND THE CONFLICT between believers and Atheists generally....calling the natural contempt a liberal feels for those defending oppressive systems AND THE NATURAL contempt Atheists feel for intransigent purveyors of cultish brainwashing hellfire damnation and senseless heaven bribes to believe....calling both " an addictive drug " is akin to calling Atheism a religion....the fundamental sense of wrong versus right is @ core here....we can proceed with a smile good humor loyalty to secular civility but not sanitize one side and villify the other... armed with the truth opposing evil is a duty not a misguided choice

3

I think . My perspective @admin for what it is worth acknowledging your goals of creating something different goes in a myriad of directions. Religious at least those fervent type will never change their opinion of the other ( whatever they are told that is) , one pathway we could take would be to encourage discussion on what world we wish to see. A think tank of ideas , try to agree on what we want collectively and advance argument or policy that would get us there(absent political labels). Once we proclaim ourselves liberal or conservative we exclude , become exclusive. I am not saying to change your personal life or world veiw , I am suggesting we leave those out of any forum or group where interactions you wish to encourage would take place. Having a place where people can be completely free to express "how they are feeling" will get empathy and compassion/support as needed from those who value those traits. I have read some stories on here and found myself unwilling to comment , at the same time glad to have heard what others experience.We have shared experience's in the one world. The present format I like but any improvement you want to try I guess its your vision so you have to pursue that. I try to go less is more if it aint broke don't fix it as a rule(not always successfully).
I have learned from this forum so thank you for doing .

3

In an intoxicated for all World, avoidance of tyrannical violence and maintenance of wise Peace are global necessities. In order to avoid inquisitional forms (too many, aggressive questions), I propose to display a message in a form of friendly advice: "Terraprotective advice: Remember to be wise. Control of nerves and negative feelings is necessary for You and the other Co-terrians." #moralevolutionfirst #homosapienshomodeus #allhumanityforterraprotectivity #limitedtimeprecioustime #caresavesterra #protectivereasonnotdestructiveillusion #pandetoxificationisnecessary

tipi Level 7 Apr 28, 2019

Earthlings make love not war

3

All good ideas and, as normal, things have to evolve including this site. I understand the issue on people getting their backs up but, in this forum, there is little anyone can do except spew (and that should be avoided in that it only makes both parties even more upset. I really liked the civil discourse paper and, coincidentally, we had a speaker here on just that topic.He looked at the paper, liked and asked if he could keep it. He was also a former Mormon and was about to be tenured in a private school when he realized he didn't believe (for some reason the n'ts are always highlighted) and left to start all over again. He knew of FFRF and personally knew Dan Barker. I try to use reason and personal anecdotes when dealing with people who disagree and if that fails it is best to walk away or simply say to agree to disagree. It will interesting to see the comments on the "how feeling?"

Thanks, I'll try to write more now that the code is a bit more stable.

3

I like it. Run it up the flagpole and see who'll salute.

How about a May pole instead? Colorful streamers...

@Admin

Positively pagan!

3

I think just like every society needs a cop on duty to enforce good conduct, every web site creator needs to have moderators acting like referees calling balls, strikes and, more importantly, fouls. Foul comments should be deleted.

more active thought policing? Huh, how could that go wrong.

@dellik Not thought policing but behavior policing. If a web site creator wants civil behavior which provides for a safe and inclusive environment s/he must make it so. Ad hominem and hateful behavior should not be tolerated. Bad behavior causes good, decent people to go away, stifles intelligent discussion and turns nice places like this into a troll infested free for all.

@dare2dream open discourse encourages those with contemptible philosophies to expose themselves. I like my bigots loud and proud. much easier to handle.

..."good conduct". Yeah, that's a really loaded subject. There have been others who really wanted to install themselves as the "behavior police".
I don't like that idea any more now, than I did then.
Nope. Nope. Nope.
I say NO to any and all censorship, across the board.

@KKGator I find the 'block' feature provides me with the exact amount of censorship I am ok with. yeah, its annoying when someone does it to me out of spite, r what ever reasons they chose, but ultimately its acceptable with the trade off of being able to do the same.

@dellik Precisely.
I get blocked all the time, for all sorts of reasons.
It's no big deal.

Unfortunately some like @dellick are unable to argue without using viteraputive language, projection, ad hominem, contempt and attempted gaslighting.

@KKGator I've seen intellegeent, civil and enjoyable web sites devolve into hate filled, juvenile, troll infested sewers where all the decent people leave. But if an unmoderated, free for all, food fight is your cup of tea, may I suggest craigslist forums. You might like it. 😉

@dare2dream Craigslist is so six years ago.

3

I’d like to remind people of this support group.
We welcome everyone, and is a safe place for everyone.
I just saw these posts, and wanted to share.

"Mental Health Support "

3

I am part of this community to not have to deal with theists and theism. I do NOT like seeing politics in the general categories here. I stay away from anything but my groups mostly.

3

so, a cross between facebook and twitter?

Twitbook? haha. Yeah, more focus on personal relationships between members.

3

I agree with most of what you posted here, esp. about the purposes of the site and how politically conservative members are likely to feel outnumbered and marginalized on here. However, as a socialist, I am not going to mute or change what I post to appease them. I don't know how to change that phenomenon about this site. As for status updates, I think that is an interesting idea and I hope it would help humanize each other as a community. At the same time, I hope these status updates would usually be more meaningful and deeper than the usual FB types of status updates which are so inane, trivial, etc. such as talking about the weather or mentioning that they are at Walmart, etc. If people actually did emotional check-ins, like in a support group, or shared what just happened of real importance in their emotional or personal life, then, yeah, I would be interested in that. Sort of the same appeal as the reality TV show that was the story in The Truman Show. Only maybe not as manipulative or exhibitionistic.

If the goal is to change minds with your posts, it is often more effective to speak in neutral tones as doing otherwise instantly turns of the part of the brain that hears. We all have a tendency to be advocates to our home teams.

@Admin With all due respect and in all honesty, you kind of lost me with what you said there. I am not being snarky or trying to be cute, I honestly am a little confused. Please do not respond with sarcasm, even tho I know that is the common currency on here when someone says they don't get something that was said.

2

I've been kind of a negative guy since my father passed in 1960, Mom raised 4 boys by herself, never remarried. It was just one struggle after another, mostly with money. We all stayed in 1 bedroom.......yeah, i have a chip on my shoulder...BUT......i've had some good times too. i regret getting married but I ended up with 2 magical daughters who are doing very well. I hardly believe they are my kids. NOW......today, it is very sad. The world seems very dark and I worry for my grand kids. I don't see it getting any better. I'm better than I was 20 years ago, I don't worry like I used to, and life is getting shorter and shorter.....but wow......Trump ain't helping matters. We have all this bullshit going on with the politicians.....and wow....watch the news coming from the Sudan!!! There are so many people starving to death......and just trying to find some food and a pair of shoes.....THERE ARE TOO MANY FUCKING PEOPLE!!! SAUDI ARABIA AIN'T DOING ANYTHING, DUBAI AIN'T DOING ANYTHING.......and the whole world wants America to solve their problems. This guy told me that 65 million people want to come to America!! Geez, I wonder why? Well, one thing, here in America if you want to rip a page out of the Bible and use it for butt-wipe.....YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT GETTING YOUR FUCKING HEAD CUT OFF!!! (.......hey, wait a minute.....maybe YOU DO!!). Organized religions and the struggle for power, greed......it's ruining the world. We will not be here as long as the dinosaurs were.

Utopianism has become renamed the failure of socialism and is the main theme of TrumpOLINI speeches....praising greed, denying pollution is the cause of global wars and polar ice melt..... I prefer to raise all out of poverty with green jobs taking away from the war jobs profiteers ....all species can thrive without religion and obscene greed.... when we all vote www.howiehawkins.us we can get there but half compromises with the ruling blueREDS redBLUES duopoly will keep getting worse

2

You're not going to be able to avoid jerks of any kind. I suggest stronger responses to bad behavior like removing them from the site. Blocking them just lets them harass someone else. Just my two cents. And, if you're just trying to make the world a better place, it's like solving the Middle East crisis, not going to happen.

lerlo Level 8 Apr 29, 2019

Of course you can avoid them...it's your choice to ignore or listen/read and/or engage in a debate/discussion/argument from their comments.

For those who must engage, I only suggest we "raise the bar". Let's agree not to fight. Let's avoid name-calling. Attack the issue, not the person. I recommend you copy and save this; It's got an official name, FYI..."Graham's hierarchy of disagreement or debate. It's a required meme for many debate classes. Here's a link; [en.wikipedia.org]

@Robecology I meant you can't wipe them out

i think the blocking feature works well enough. anyone that feels harassed can remedy that problem in seconds by blocking.

@callmedubious that doesn't stop the problem it just pushes it on somebody else.

@Bobsuruncle kind of like saying as long as I get vaccinated and don't have measles we'll be okay?

@Robecology I highly recommend Agnostic.com learn NVC - NON-VIOLENT COMMUNICATION (or Compassion Communication) 3rd edition by Dr Marshall Rosenberg. Excellent communication, listening and conflict resolution skills. I'm now studying it again for the 4th time since I just learned they had edited it again, refining this amazing tool. It truly works if you know how to apply it.

@DeafGypsy A book is hard to pick up....a simple image is easier to read....and thus reaches more people.

The pyramid says it all; most communicate at the lowest level; that of the "name-call".
slightly fewer raise that to the next level; and very few make it to the top of the pyramid.

That's why I'm much more prone to throwing up quick images, and short videos...it reaches more, and makes the point quicker.

Here it is again; simplified. I recommend you download it to "photos" and post it often.

@Robecology Thanks, I like the image. I pasted it and the title line and when I get my printer up I will print and hang it.

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