LINK Separating Facts About Clergy Abuse From Fiction
Separating Facts About Clergy Abuse From Fiction
Thomas G. Plante Ph.D., ABPP
From *Psychology Today" Aug 23, 2018
Four Important Facts to Keep in Mind
1) No empirical data exists that suggests that Catholic clerics sexually abuse minors at a level higher than clerics from other religious traditions or from other groups of men who have ready access and power over children (e.g., school teachers, coaches).
2) Clerical celibacy doesn’t cause pedophilia and sexual crimes against minors.
3) Homosexual clerics aren’t the cause of pedophilia in the Church.
4) The Church has used best practices to deal with this issue since 2002.
If we as a community pride ourselves on being fact based, why do we keep promoting the nonfactual notion of sexual abuse being endemic to the christian church to the point of criticizing it's adherents based on this view?
This is not a defense of pedo priests.
This is not a defense of the christian church.
This is a test to see if facts can really sway atheists and agnostics, we who pride ourselves in being able to be swayed by facts.
3
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21 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Sometimes coincidences are almost too funny to be believable.
Educator Sexual Misconduct:A Synthesis of Existing Literature
Prepared for the U.S. Department of Education
Office of the Under Secretary
Policy and Program Studies Service
By Charol Shakeshaft Hofstra University and Interactive, Inc.Huntington, N.Y.
A sexual misconduct study by Charol Shakeshaft!!! 
"Certainly any large organization, such as the Catholic Church, have holes that need to get plugged when things fall between the cracks and so we all need to continue being vigilant in our efforts to keep children safe. "
Who's writing this stuff!!!?
"The Bottom Line"
"Certainly some people fall between the cracks when policies and procedures are not followed carefully."
This writer seems to be lodged between the cracks.
Here we go again...
"And so, more work is always needed to plug these holes to be sure that best practices and industry standards are followed at all times and by everyone."
I'm really not trying to undermine the legitimacy of the article, I suspect it's sincere, but man, the dude could have chosen his words a little more carefully!
skado
Level 9
June 8, 2019
7
I would disagree on item 4, best practices. I don’t believe that the Church, Catholic or any other denomination, uses best practices with regard to the outing/revealing of sex-related crimes committed by its clergy. I don’t believe that’s the case unless, by best practices, you mean silence, buying off families, obfuscation and denial until forced by legal and public pressure to admit to the illegal acts.
From 2019... [nytimes.com]
From 2019 also ... and, keep in mind, before Francis, the Vatican refused to admit any concerns. [i24news.tv]
From 2019 in re the State of Pennsylvania’s charges regarding clergy abuse revealed cases not deadly with openly by the Church... [google.com]
No... these cases were not handled with best practices. They were handled with we’ll buy their silence if they complain but ignore them otherwise.
Rob1948
Level 7
June 9, 2019
5
#1 False
#2 It doesn't cause it but it makes it more likely to happen...
#3 The only statement in this post that is completely factual...
#4 Bullshit they still protect pedophile priests from the law...
Lizard_of_Ahaz
Level 9
June 9, 2019
5
@Antidronefreeman I prefer a steel drum and 100 pounds of thermite....
Then post facts not fallacies.
Mofo1953
Level 9
June 9, 2019
3
@TheMiddleWay everything wrong, first because regular people do not have the power a priest has over kids and their brainwashed religious families, and second because the top church officials continue to protect them so they seldom go to jail, whereas regular people who are caught normally and usually do.These are facts, not stereotypes.
@TheMiddleWay you're pulling false data out of nowhere, that is what's wrong.
@TheMiddleWay not unaware, sinces you are the one claiming tthese faux statistics, name your sources (which should not be I pulled these numbers from my ass.)
The big problem is that the issue goes beyond pedophilia and priests. Many orphanages (especially in Ireland) have a history of abuse and even death. Going over the FFRF Black Collar Crime sheet one does see abuses by all the different religious sects but the Catholics have the most infractions. I recently posted the latest "Atlantic Monthly" that was written by a priest and highlights the issue of "clericalism" as the driving force. Celibacy is definitely part of the problem. By best practices does that mean best for the church? The cover-ups are a major problem in the church and this has been documented ad infinitum.
JackPedigo
Level 9
June 8, 2019
3
Who cares what group it’s endemic to?
I don’t care if it’s the Shriners doing it or the invisible man.
A shit load of catholic priests are sexually praying on young kids.
What else matters?
The article derails what is important.
It’s a pointless article and a waste of time.
And since when is it our mantra ‘to be swayed by facts’ ???
🥴
darthfaja
Level 7
June 8, 2019
2
@TheMiddleWay The possibility of bias is a legitimate concern, in this particular case and generally speaking. You're right in saying we shouldn't automatically assume bias. But it does seem like a pretty real possibility in a case like this.
@TheMiddleWay
Again distracts from what’s important
What’s your agenda here? This article is a waste of time.
Being Atheist doesn’t mean anyone presents themselves as anything other then Atheist. None of us here are any different then anyone else.
That’s making a generalization about Atheists that isn’t true, which oddly enough is relatable to the point you attempted to make with this post.
@TheMiddleWay
My agenda is to dispel bullshit
All people pride themselves on being rational and factual. We are not special because we don’t believe in gods.
@TheMiddleWay
Just put the pieces of shit behind bars and end the pointless banter.
@TheMiddleWay who ever said it is unique to the Catholic Church?
The reason they are in the forefront is because they knew about it and did nothing to stop it, even covered it up.
Nobody is saying this is solely Catholicism.
And again who cares?
If we want to de-villainize anyone then please let’s focus on a worth while group.
@TheMiddleWay
The point of the Catholic Church is that they knowingly covered this up
@TheMiddleWay I disagree
The article displaces blame away from the church
By creating a conversation about a non-issue
This is just a political move to try and squelch a fire
Self-policing is never a best practice. Self-policing never exposes crimes - it only covers them up and reinforces the regime under which crime exists, and that is the intent of the Vatican - as they recently announced yet another self-policing "measure."
Until the Vatican makes public and transparent everything and turns it all over independent police, none of these measures are interesting at all, except in that they are deliberately going to be ineffective. The Church cannot be considered an authority in this regard - they have proven they cannot be trusted with that power.
As for the whataboutism of Mofo, wherever crime exists investigation by independent authorities should follow. I doubt anyone would say investigations should not happen for claims of pedophilia/pederasty outside the Church, but the clergy must not receive a pass on such independent investigation. That will just perpetuate the problem.
I have a darker idea forming as to why pederasty occurs within the priesthood. I wonder what the number of repeat crimes against the same child are, on average. Are we talking about a small number per child, or a continuing state of abuse of the same children by the same priests.
Raeat
Level 2
June 9, 2019
2
two and three are true. four is blatantly untrue. one is iffy; there have been individual cases in the clergy of all religions because the clergy are human, and humans do strange things, but catholic clerics are infamous and the massive coverup certainly speaks to the extent to which the problem is rampant specifically in that church. it isn't rampant among jewish clerics, and yes, there have been rabbis guilty of sexual abuse of children, just as there are people who aren't clerics of ANY religion guilty of that. too many christians, not necessarily clerics (and not necessarily catholic), have used their religion as the excuse for their offenses. no jewish laymen have done this. it's not built into the system. in the catholic church it appears to be built in, regardless of the above so-called facts.
g
genessa
Level 8
June 8, 2019
1
@TheMiddleWay what is false is that the coverup continues. so we don't really even KNOW if it's down or if the coverup is working better.
g
OK..how can you PROVE statements #1 and 4?
LucyLoohoo
Level 9
June 8, 2019
1
@TheMiddleWay Unless I've missed a link to the ''proof,'' all I see is a statement. Believe me--I'm no friend of the Catholic church but I'm willing to see documented proof...numbers, percentages, etc. We ALL know they've covered up/ignored child abuse, so telling us they've been "using best practices" is meaningless without data.
@TheMiddleWay i clicked a major link, the one to a grand jury report. it had no evidence at all to support the claim that the catholic church has no more sexual abuse of minors in it than other religion's clergy. none. it spoke of the coverups, though. so... what evidence?
g
@TheMiddleWay it is not just better reported. if anything it is worse reported because it is actively covered up. i don't know about other christian sects but when a rabbi does it, it's reported and he's arrested and he loses his job. so there is no credence i would give to the notion that it is endemic in other judeochristian traditions, nor that it is equally found in all traditions. it is not traditional, at least in judaism, to sexually assault children. the rate of pedophiles in the general population is reported better than the rate in the catholic church because there is no concerted coverup throughout the general population, though there are of course coverups at various institutions.
g
@TheMiddleWay because as you noted there is no central authority to create or perpetuate a massive coverup.
i would not have used the word tradition; i was repeating your word.
we disagree, then, about the catholic church's misbehavior in this regard's being nothing more than a reflection of the worst in our general population. i am still convinced that it is more, and i have seen no evidence otherwise.
g
@Silverwhisper "Jesus was real!" "How do you know?" "The bible tells me so." "And how do you know the bible is true?" "Because it says it's true."
RIIIIIIGHT!
@Silverwhisper Middleway just told me a couple days ago that he didn't know what a "claim" was, at least in contrast to a "belief". It seems he's running with pretending to be confused about what a claim is in this thread also.
“For years, there were people who assumed abuse was simply a Roman Catholic problem,” said the Rev. Russell Moore, who heads the SBC’s public policy arm. “I see that mentality dissipating. There seems to be a growing sense of vulnerability and a willingness to address this crisis.”
skado
Level 9
June 9, 2019
0
Thank you for posting this. I was unaware of the prevalence of child sexual abuse throughout our society.
Consider me swayed by facts.
Nottheonlyone
Level 7
June 11, 2019
0
@TheMiddleWay I agree wholeheartedly.
You say this is not a defense of the Catholic Church. The discussion is about that church, but several times you commented something to the effect (not your words, just my interpretation of your tone):
“But, sexual assaults of children are just as common in public schools, they cover them up too; sexual assaults are just as common in the general public.”
Those things are, for the most part true (though I don’t think public school coverups are as common on the scale of the Catholic Church — that’s my opinion, not fact). And, I agree that your first three points, above are reasonable.
But, what the heck does pedophilia in public schools or the public or other church denominations have to do with the Catholic best practices? You were not comparing best practices to others. You asserted that the Church has used best practices since 2002. The argument is either they have or have not. It is not they have/have not used best practices compared to California (for instance) public schools. And, most would argue the negative and they would be right.
Rob1948
Level 7
June 11, 2019
0
So, Thomas G. Plante (the Augustin Cardinal Bea, S.J. University Professor psychology on the faculty of Santa Clara University and adjunct clinical professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford University School of Medicine) compares two almost 20 y/o datasets - a 2002 report, prepared for the Catholic Church (which mentions, but fails to adjust for underreporting) vs a 2004 report, prepared by the DOE which uses a whopping 6, very poorly conducted, surveys (minuscule sample sizes/misconduct by other students included in results). This looks totally unbiased and not cherry-picked at ALL. /s
Fuck the Catholic Church. Burn that bitch to the ground.
DesertInfidel
Level 6
June 10, 2019
0
@TheMiddleWay No, but I can present Cardinal George Pell. Proving well enough to me that the Catholic Church is nothing more than an organized pedophilia cult, from the top (or damn near it) down. Hell, it probably always has been. The abuse and the cover-ups reach the highest echelons of the Church's leadership. You and Tom Plante can try and convince me otherwise but you'd both be wasting your time.
The only reason, that they are even (ineffectively) addressing this issue is because it's costing them a ton of money.
@TheMiddleWay Confirmation bias is your issue, not mine. You've allowed a lack of evidence to convince you that sexual abuse of children, by admin, within U.S. public schools is as prevalent as it is by clergy in the Catholic Church. I concede the the former is badly under-studied but I will not concede that the Church has, by its own design and with singular purpose, systematically committed and covered up thousands and thousands of cases of abuse with, until very recently, absolutely zero accountability.
If one were to make a similar claim of any other organization, I would laugh in their face.
@TheMiddleWay "Without evidence there is no proof."
Name a U.S. state where anything even remotely comparable to this occurred within a school system. It's never happened.
@TheMiddleWay Again, you consider "the evidence we have" to be somehow compelling. You seem like a smart guy, look at it again.
Allied Security - Not sure how this can even compare to the assault of children.
Horace Mann - Isolated, not widespread but still pretty bad. I'd add the Penn State scandal to this and it would still pale in comparison. These two examples add to maybe that of one diocese.
Hollywood - Hollywood is not an organization with central leadership nor even remotely on par with the Catholic Church's widespread, systemic, sexual abuse. There have been what, a dozen allegations from former child actors? Still horrible, of course, but still not equivalent.
I agree in part that this problem is certainly not limited to the Church but there is absolutely no single organization that is its equal in perpetrating and perpetuating pedophilia.
@TheMiddleWay "That's in one year in one state. The 300 from the Pennsylvania report was multiple decades. Granted, not all 328 allegations are credible but it would only take a few percent of those per year to be credible for Ca schools and Pa churches to be on par."
Again, you misrepresent the data. The 300 number in PA is not allegations it is perpetrators. The allegations (yes, over decades) is in the several thousands. And again, when an educator is accused, school districts almost always direct the case to LAW enforcement, allowing the judicial system to actually attempt to obtain justice. Sure cover-ups happen but not nearly with enough frequency to even hint at such a widespread conspiracy. The Church? Yeah, not so much.
I do not disagree that there are pedophiles among the general population, hell, most sexual assaults of children AND adults are committed by a relative, friend or acquaintance. I do not disagree that parents should be vigilant.
My contention, still, is that there is no single organization EVER as deeply, as purposefully, embedded in pedophilia as the Catholic Church.
@TheMiddleWay "I'm aware the 300 are credible allegations (not proven perpetrators) which is why I made the distinction that not all the Ca allegations are credible, but that only a few percent are needed to match the 300 credible allegations from the Pa report.
So one state matches the entire catholic church in another state."
No. You misrepresent the numbers yet again. Are you doing this on purpose??
CA = 358 investigations of unknown scope, origin or outcome, but let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that each of these is credible and involved an individual perpetrator. There are over 266,000 teachers in California so that's around 0.13%. Completely unequivocal. Not to mention the lack of a concerted campaign to obscure, cover-up or otherwise conspire to maintain these abusers' easy access to vulnerable children.
A child is 24x more likely to be sexually abused by a Catholic Priest than a California school teacher. In Owensboro, Kentucky that number doubles. Go figure.
Your crusade to make any other org out to be as bad as the Catholic pedo cult is disingenuous at best, purposeful and strategic at worst. Please stop.
@TheMiddleWay Nothing you have presented leads to the conclusion that in public schools anywhere children are subjected to sexual abuse at a rate anywhere near that of the Catholic Church.
Why are you so zealously devoted to the cause of finding equivalency where there is none?
@DesertInfidel "No. You misrepresent the numbers yet again. Are you doing this on purpose??"
He did the same thing in a discussion with me. He pretends not to understand as an arguing tactic.
@greyeyed123 Indeed. I had posted again, once more dissecting his claim that 301 priests in Pennsylvania and over 4,300 nationally, running rampant for decades, racking up thousands of victims in PA and tens of thousands nationwide, is somehow equal to 350 allegations. He seems quite stuck on purposefully misrepresenting that one point. Likely because it's the only way that any other organization can be made to look comparable to the absolute world champions of pedophilia. Sadly my post seems to have disappeared and just not worth the time and effort to repost it.
@DesertInfidel And you would think those representing god on earth--or at least representing themselves as doing god's work--would hold themselves to a higher standard than other organizations (or society at large) when it comes to...pedophilia!!! I can't imagine the same argument being made if priests were murdering people left and right. "Well, they are not murdering people at a higher rate than teachers murder people, you know." Good grief.
This is agnostic.com and not homeschooling.com. So naturally, we are going to bring legit articles about priests abusing children to everyone's attention. Now, if we were all about ending the Department of Education along with every other institution in the world that involves childhood-interaction, then we would post more articles about teachers and doctors abusing children.
I'm going to argue that medical treatment and education are necessary, therefore the risk of exposing children to pedophiles is necessary. Throw me a bone here, Middleway, even you believe in vaccinations. I think. You really, really don't want me or others who faint at the sight of needles to try to vaccinate children or anything living for that matter. So, the best I can do is: if you a religious fanatic, avoid the risk of a childhood predator and always supervise your child if you must bring them to a church. Homeschool your kid with the religion and avoid the risk. Maybe it's an argument for homeschooling regular education after all.
UrsiMajor
Level 8
June 9, 2019
0
"Given that the incidence of abuse in a church is the same as in public education, would you give the same advice to people taking their kids to public school?"
If you read my response again, I make an argument for homeschooling. So- yes.
"Even worse: the incidence of abuse in both church and public school is on par with the incidence of abuse in the population in general. Would you then give the same advice when your child interacts with anyone from the public?"
Maybe doctors shouldn't be left alone with children. That would put an end to the gymnastics abuse scandal. So again, yes.
I've moved on from the pointless rhetoric to discussing possible solutions to children abuse by society in general.
@TheMiddleWay Well, I don't have kids and never wanted them - so maybe I am not the right person to ask. This writer says- at least make a public database of offenders. Now that I feel qualified to endorse.
@TheMiddleWay I think that is for the Catholics only - it doesn't include other religions. I think all of the non-religious pedophiles are already in databases - this would be teachers, physicians, etc. I have not researched this- so I could be mistaken. I value your dedication to this topic and know you will research it to the fullest...So., I'm using your tenacity to do my homework while my lazy arse watches The Chi....
@TheMiddleWay I came up with a crazy idea that is very Black Mirrorish.
At work, most people are working from home. We dial in on our cellphones and use software called WebEx. So we have virtual meetings with video cameras, sharing screens, and audio. Maybe that's a good direction for schools to take. One of my PhD friends already teaches online using this method. Would you use that for your classes?
Then I thought, what about test taking? What if we had robots proctoring the exam rooms with video cameras as well. I had a vision of a school shooter trying to shoot up a test-taking classroom proctored by a robot. The robot then turns into RoboCop and shoots them. Black Mirror really needs to hire me as a writer.
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