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What would you do?

Hello, thank you for taking a few minutes to read this and I appreciate any opinion/advice regarding this issue.
My daughter just turned 6 this summer and loves hanging out with her best friend from school, who happens to be the daughter to my best friend. My best friend has been with me for 15 years and even despite my changes over the last couple of years we're still very close and respect each other's views and beliefs. But to make a long story short Bible camp was 3 weeks ago and he asked nicely if my daughter could go along with his and even to my discomfort my mother and my ex believed it was the best so I didn't make a fuss about it and let her go. The following weekend I was sitting with my daughter and she asked me "Why I don't believe in Jesus?" And I just told her it was a grown up issue and I'll explain when your older. But I can't just leave it at that. I don't want her to fight such blatant mind washing tactics all her life, I don't want her feeling judge for every misthought or misdeed she does in her developing years. I don't like lying to her about this stuff but it's so complex. I really wish my ex would have supported my wishes to keep my daughter away amap until she was older and could make an informative decision then. But on the same breathe I know I made valuable friendship in my religious endeavors that I don't think I would have made if I was so skeptical in my youth. So I don't know what to do now. I live in South Dakota the state that wishes it was apart of the Bible belt and I feel trapped and I feel both of my child will be forced into such overwhelmingly stenchy manure that is organized religion and I don't want that but I rarely get what I want. I guess I'm asking for ways to handle this? How are you handling your kids, if you don't get a say, how do you handle your kids grilling you? What would you do if you were in my shoes? PS. I also really want to keep the peace obviously lol šŸ˜

SeanPaul91 4 Aug 14
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37 comments

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7

I would speak with her just as though she were an adult. Sheā€™s a lot more astute and perceptive than you might think.

Talk about the various religions around the world. Use reasonā€”set an example. You are her shining idolā€”sheā€™ll follow you for now. Later itā€™ll be out of your hands.

I couldnā€™t agree more with WilliamFleming. I would not call it a grown-up issue. I would talk to her in simple language a child can understand and answer her questions as fully as I can.

Iā€™ve talked to my son about this to a degree. (Heā€™s now 9.) I just tell him people have different beliefs, and they all think theyā€™re right, that they have these beliefs because itā€™s what their parents taught them, and it sometimes makes them feel better to have these beliefs. But people donā€™t need these beliefs to be good people, like us. See? Nothing fancy.

4

Six is within the age of reason. When she asked me "Why I don't believe in Jesus?" I would explain why. It is not a grown up thing. Why are there Bible Camps? It's to brainwash children. Through the years our family has always had a tradition of sit down supper and it was a time to discuss what things came up through the day especially for my daughter. We would ask questions and she would tell us. Ask her if she believes in Jesus and why. Is it just because your friends do? When my daughter was about nine, my wife had sent her to CCD as she is Catholic and Samantha had biblical questions and I just gave her a Bible and told her to get to reading. She read some each day but when she got to Lot's daughters sleeping with their father, that was it and she refused to read farther. Sam decided she didn't want to go to CCD anymore my wife didn't force her. Kids are smart and if you ask questions they will tell you what they think. Question and discuss but never preach.

gearl Level 8 Aug 15, 2019
4

Most of all be a good dad, nothing will help her to question religion half as much, as having the example of a good person who was not religious in her memories for her whole life. But don't wait to answer her question, the best time to answer a question is when it is asked, not doing so is evasive, and that can in a child's mind be mistaken for dishonesty.

3

I raised my three kids without religion. Sometimes my Catholic parents would take them to church (my rule was that they could go if they wanted to, but they were not forced to go. After a few times they found it boring and did not want to go. My youngest went to a pre-school ran out of a Methodist church (it was close to home and had a good reputation). It was a very well run program with small class sizes and he had a fantastic teacher that he loved. He had fun there even though there was 'Jesus' involved on some level.

As my kids grew up, I would periodically explain to them my views and why I felt the way I did (no evidence for god, but plenty of evidence that god was man-made) and answer any questions as they came up. Explanations should always be tailored to a child's age. A simple, "there are lots of religions in the world" and "people all over the world believe many different things, the important thing is to be a good person" should be pretty sufficient for a 6 year old.

When youngest went to middle school, he loved the class on world religions and came home with A's on all the tests/assignments in that section. Once in awhile, a classmate would try to convince my son that he should believe in god. Other classmates would say that he should believe the way he saw fit.

When my oldest son was in high school he attended some church youth group events with friends and he considered the possibility of god. I think parents need to teach kids critical thinking skills and the freedom to learn. They have to be allowed to investigate and make up their own minds. Ultimately, all 3 of my kids are agnostic as adults.

At 6 years old, your daughter probably just wants to play with her friends and do fun activities. As long as the camp is not too overbearing with religion, and your daughter's life is balanced with lots of other learning opportunities, I would not worry too much. If however the camp causes behavioral issues, I like the suggestion made by @avron to schedule an alternate learning/fun adventure during bible camp week. (We always celebrated Easter at a Science/Natural History museum.)

2

As soon as I felt that my daughter was old enough to understand what I was explaining to her I told her the truth in words and ways that were appropriate to her level/s of comprehension at the time/s.
By the time she was around 10 years old, she knew all about, except the nitty-gritty bits, the Facts of Life ( the Birds and Bees bit), was fascinated with things scientific, etc, and had formed her opinion that God/s never existed despite what her mother and others tried to tell her.
Don't think for even ONE minute that children are DUMB, they are not, just answer their questions factually and in terms appropriate to their age and levels of comprehension BECAUSE they do and can understand much better than we give them credit for.

2

You screwed up when you let your daughter attend that camp. There is no safe level of psychological indoctrination.

I'm afraid you have no option to keep peace with your family while simultaneously resisting their religious indoctrination.

Psychological indoctrination is very mentally abusive. So much of our system is about affirming indoctrination.

It's basically a way to not only give a mistaken idea of what is accurately out there, but it rewards people for being reactively assumptive, rather than thoughtful, resolute, etc. A person is basically making others psychotic by training them not to think about the information being given, and the scenario that they're in.

Raising children this way is a good way to end up with a mentally recessive child that will not be able to really do anything right. So the child's ethical perspective will only display a narrow range of moral approaches, they will blindly apply crystallized knowledge, or not be able to minimize assumptions in a series to arrive at well-developed or accurate conclusions, etc.

If you brainwash a kid, you basically get AOC or Ben Shapiro.

@DZhukovin I see no evidence that AOC is the product of brainwashing.

2

[amazon.com]

I would find a good book on world religions and start the conversation there.

"People believe all sorts of things - this is what I believe - "Do you have any questions?".".

Open ended enough for her to understand that her friends have a fascination with Harry Potter level story telling - but that you recognize religion for what it is - good story telling. That you don't buy into the mythos.

I'm not sure if there is a good children's book on Atheism.

You might check with the FFRF (Freedom From Religion Foundation) or the American Atheist (Both have internet sites) - they might have reading material for kids too. It has to be a topic that comes up often.

2

You should have no dilemma if you believe firmly in reason and logic. Here is how:

  1. There is absolutely nothing wrong for your 6 year old to go to church with the friend you trust
  2. You should answer her question by explaining very articulately why you don't believe in Jesus and why it is important for her to go everywhere and experience what various people do so when she grows up she could make a good choice

I just not allowed but encouraged my daughter to go to church, mosque, temple. In fact I took her everywhere many times since she was 4. She asked similar questions and I explained thoughtfully why I do not believe in religion and why I changed since childhood. What changed my beliefs and why I thought that being a good human being was more important than all these beliefs. Contrary to what most think, little children are very attentive, intelligent and fast absorbing reason and logic.

My wife was religious when we married but she did not oppose it. I did not force it, It was open for discussion at home. Over time, my wife became very less religious and my daughter is now atheist at 21.

I would not be worried about she going to places of worship if you can help her stay grounded in reason.

2

People are using the word inoculate which i think is a great word, I play this game with my 9 year old and have been for years, "Real or Not" dinosaurs, unicorns, magic, tooth fairies, gods, elves, dragons, etc. Santa Klaus when she was ready for that. mixed in with the "Is it a mammal" game. but yeah critical thinking games are a must.

2

I would explain to her the difference between myth and reality. I would warn her that religions are scams based on myths. Religions only want to control people and con them into donating money.

2

Just tell her how you feel and why, and add that she has to make up her own mind to believe one day or not.

2

Um, children might get abused at Bible Camps. Be fucking careful about leaving a SIX year old child with laypeople. Thatā€™s really just common sense.

2

Sounds like the right time to start teaching her about critical thinking. Ask her if she thinks what she is being told is rational. She may not understand initially but over time your teaching will will be the real gift. She may change her mind as she matures.

1

Tough situation, my sympathies, mate. There are several ideas here that I think would go over well. I really like the suggestions about talking about other myths. When I was a kid, my dad and I would study astronomy, go out and look at the night sky, and talk about the myths associated with the various constellations. That's one way to bring in knowledge and the myth aspect while being fun, as kids love stories.
I would also say read the bible to her. It has to be the full version, not a watered down kids version that will miss many of the important errors and soften things. Start off with the beginning, taking some notes for yourself to compare later. Get into the question of "wait a second, I thought in chapter 1, they said creation happened like this, but in chapter 2, it says that." You can have her think about why they might be different, but work towards the conclusion that they both can't be correct. If this isn't correct, is it just a group of stories and go from there. You will find lots of other fun things that just don't make sense (talking snakes, how did Cain meet a wife from other cities if there were only 3 people on earth, etc.). Read from some of the other holy texts out there (I like the stories in the Bhagavad Gita as well as the epic of Gilgamesh, maybe read this second one before you do the flood so you can show where they came from the same place) and other mythology sources like Bullfinch's Classic Mythology, Lady Gregory (for Irish/British myths) are some examples I can think of straight away. Ask her which stories she likes or doesn't like, ask why, ask which she thinks are silly and which are true, etc.
Good luck!
Edit: don't forget to let her know that you don't know an answer. Not knowing is the start of a journey, not the end of knowledge. Inserting a random answer so you can feel you know the answer is the end of the journey and doesn't help us know things. Don't be afraid to say "I don't know." I do that all the time in my classes (I am a university professor, so I am supposed to be an expert in my fields), I just have to be sure to look into a possible answer for the next meeting.

1

Either you love your daughter or like peace with your ex. Choose!

zesty Level 7 Aug 15, 2019
1

I grew up in a similar situation. Dad was an atheist, mom was not. My best friend's family was JWs. I went to Sunday school and all that but when I asked dad he told me straight. However, he did add that this was his view and it did not have to be mine.
She is six and at that age, we are willing to believe all kinds of things. Wait until Santa is blown off and then use it to explain why you think the way you do. A talking snake is something that she can see as a fairy story and not a fact. Then talk about Abraham and Issac. How Abraham was willing to kill his son because he was told to and tell her that nothing or nobody could ever make you hurt her.
Also, I think that avron`s idea of planning ahead for next year might be a good plan. You can add to the pressure by inviting her friend too.

1

I don't think sending her to bible camp is "the best" for her. She get indoctrinated into a vicious ideology but if the mother is a believer there is only so much you can do about that.
Telling her that it is "a grown up issue" and that you'll explain it later is a huge mistake in my view. The believers don't care how complex their ideology is. And I think you are underestimating your daughter if you think she can't understand having doubts. Is she familiar with the concept of lying? Does she understand that sometimes people say false things they think are true? Then tell her that it is important o question things. She needs a method to determine what the truth is and that method is doubting and searching for evidence.
And please tell her about other religions. In bible camp she probably will get the impression that there is only one religious path. Tell her about the different sects of christianity, islam, buddhism, old forgotten mythologies. Tell her that everyone of those religions think they are the right one. Ask her why she doesn't believe in Zeus. Ask her why she thinks you shouldn't believe in Zeus.
Those are not complicated questions. At least you can implant a seed of doubt inside her if the indoctrination has gone too far. But please don't leave her with nothing against religion. She needs your support or else she might live under constant fear of hell and never discover freedom from religious oppression.

Dietl Level 7 Aug 15, 2019
1

that's a tough dilemma. lots of different advice. let me offer this:

She's going to be inundated with christian kaka for years. From all sides. You need to teach her how to weed out the crap. I'd start reading her the koans of buddhism and the fables of other beliefs. The quick little stories like the scorpion and the frog. Teaching her how to pull heuristic concepts from these tales while also keeping in mind that they are fiction. At the end of each story "was the scorpion real?" and "was the frog real?" Point out how we make animals talk and people have tremendous powers in these stories to stress an issue.

The point is you need to give her a tool to decipher their bullshit without confusion. That tool, those tools, must subsume their stories and brainwashing efforts. So after the fables start telling her the true history of man with history and archaeology and sociology. You want to counter their mythos with science and eventually let her reach the conclusion of religion's true origin as a tool on her own. That's how you beat them. You can't just let them grind it into her because they have a huge advantage in numbers, but not in depth. YOU own depth and truth in science so use that - while always taking the high road regarding religion as a useful tool when taken properly. Like medicine.

DOn't try to push one religion or no religion. You have to let her make that decision on her own. But give her the tools to make religion transparent so she has a chance to use her own judgment vice being brainwashed by the evangelicals.

1

Start with telling her about all the other religions. Especially how the Abrahamic one has three main branches with their own prophets and several separate factions, like Catholics and Protestants.

You should make her understand that people lie and how to spot it. She will learn that eventually but the sooner the better. The one adult who sat me down and taught me that has my eternal gratitude.

Most importantly, tell her to read the bible, old and new testament; the whole thing. No quicker way to make an atheist/agnostic than that.

1

Never lie to them or dismiss their questions. My mom had a wonderful way of answering things on my level. I grew up with some mild misconceptions because she over simplified some things and I never rethought them. Thank god she didnā€™t lie or ignore my questions though. I shudder to think what kind of beliefs I would have if she did.

0

I would say first of all trust that you are capable of negating any brain washing she is exposed to. Secondly, don't wait to address this with her because she will be a lot more willing to listen now at age 6 than later. You don't have to give her the whole enchilada right now. Pick one or two aspects of your disbelief that she can understand and explain those to her. Listen and reply respectfully to her responses. And finally, trust her to be reasonable herself and to learn to pick up on manipulative devices. She will sooner or later if you guide her well.

0

My children. was raised without religion. Most of their friends had a religious affiliation. When situations like this would arise, I always answered questions truthfully and age appropriate. I also would speak to them before hand to clarify things that might not have come up before. I have always taught my kids that religion is a belief system that does not follow science and logic.I would also let them know about other religions. They are all adults with no affiliations.

0

I could never understand why Christians do not ' market ' Jesus a good but ordinary man. Why do you not try this on your daughter?. It would mean that there is a chance of retaining her friends who are Christians. It would involve explaining how some people take it too far and get delusional but I am sure that your daughter understands that fairy tales are not real.

0

I visiting different religious venues is an option go for it otherwise use the internet to demonstrate that people hold all sorts of beliefs. If you could find a very funky Hindu temple, a sort of spiritual Disneyland, that would be excellent. You can tell that Hindus have about 33 000 000 Jesuses and similar dudes.
I remember having some visitors coming and the old man, in his late 70s, said his prayer. My kids had never ever seen anything like and just started eating and so did his children, some age. He swiftly reprimanded them.
One is now a staunch atheist and climate researcher. One of my daughters declined into religion and joined the JWs.
Don't be too concerned! You can still save your child's sanity.

0

I recall it being really scary when it seemed my daughter was leaning towards religion, so I sympathize with what youā€™re going through. But please know that this definitely isnā€™t something you should withhold information about, and she told you that by loving and trusting you enough to ask about it. The hard thing is her age. They donā€™t take in huge amounts of info at once at 6, but will pepper you with questions over time. I found this happened a lot when I was driving and she was in the back in her car seat. Religion, sex, death (her father died when she was a toddler) would come up. Nothing perks you up quite like being asked ā€œIs Daddy really in hell?ā€ while driving in rush hour traffic!

I think you should dive right in with your thoughts. Since birth, I had been reading my daughter books about other religions and philosophies. I made sure she knew that people needed stories and beliefs for comfort, or for the communication of things they didnā€™t understand, so they needed to be treated respectfully, not with disdain or rudeness. I let her make her own determinations (because she will anyway, whether she tells you or not). To help her cope with her fatherā€™s death, I found an excellent book about a little girl whose father had died, and one of its messages was ā€œDead is dead.ā€ He wasnā€™t coming back. Itā€™s been a catch-phrase for us ever since.

I was a little nervous when she took a bible class in high school (turns out it was just for interest) but sheā€™s been a contented agnostic/atheist all this time, and gracefully navigates religious in our church-on-every-corner city. Good luck, and I hope you find it easier than it seems now.

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