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I’d like to get members opinions and thoughts and feelings about agnostic theists; of which I am one. I don’t KNOW if an entity was the first cause or if there even was a first cause but the Kalam really makes one think. I have all kinds of doubts due to the problem of evil and the suffering in the world.

tactic8 4 Oct 15
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0

Finally admitting that there is no 'Supreme Being' you can understand why there are good and evil people in the world.

It seems me that by your statement that you conclude that people who "admit" that there is no Supreme Being somehow have better understanding of why there are good and evil people in the world. How does admitting that there is no Supreme Being lead better understanding of why there are good and evil people in the world?

@tactic8 It is my opinion that people who want to believe that we were all created by some all seeing, all benevolent, all powerful being can't logically explain how such a being could create evil. Yes, it would have to be the creation of that being since, according to them, nothing existed before it. Without that problematic belief, you can understand that some people a. are out to get whatever they want regardless of who it hurts, b. Have power over others, and/or c. take pleasure in others' misery. You don't have to reconcile with that foolish remark about 'free will' that so many theists use.

0

OK I'm stupid, what is an "agnostic theist"?

0

Evil is caused either by nature or mankind. Kalam, or any religious tenant, doesn't mean anything. Man is inherently evil. We want or need so we take. If it is not given, we take by force. This is not to say that evil can't be overcome by good. It can... But rarely.

You are mistaken. Man is a social creature and meant to live in groups. Evil is not inherent, empathy and care for others like us is.

@sterlingdean He spoke of evil and suffering... Put 5 people in a room for 1 week with no food. Then, put in 1 plate with food and see what happens. Sharing won't happen most likely. Man has always conquered and taken what he wants. History is filled with the stories.

1

If you don't know something to be true, then the default position is to assume it isn't.
You do not KNOW there is not a nun's habit wearing purple invisible intangible giant hedgehog shitting invisible, intangible big macs all over your front room carpet, but I am pretty damn sure you are not agnostic about that.
You do not know that Leonard Nimoy was not the second coming of Christ who instead of saving the world decided to make sci fi movies instead and just never told anyone and refrained from performing miracles becaus they gave him chronic IBS, but I am pretty damn sure you are not agnostic about that either.
What makes the ridiculous claims of Christianity any less bull shit, than any other bull shit claim?
Nothing, so why make a special pleading claim for ir?

1

I refer to Occam's Razor: * "the principle (attributed to William of Occam) that in explaining a thing no more assumptions should be made than are necessary." Or, in other words, the simplest explanation is more likely to be correct.

The simplest explanation is that potential energy/energy has always existed. We know that energy becomes matter and that matter returns to an energy state. Sometimes that matter becomes life; sometimes life becomes sentient and sometimes it becomes self-aware. But, in the end, everything is energy in some form or another.

Science shows us that no creator being is necessary for the universe to behave as it does. So, if no god/universal consciousness, holding everything in its place, is necessary-- why insert one?

Adding a consciousness to this energy, or making it a god, adds an unnecessary layer of complexity; and especially so if one gives human attributes to this being and makes claims that it is involved in human affairs etc.

[google.com]

A good way to put it. Also if there was a god, it would have to exist outside our Universe, for if it did not then we could not know what each individual is responsible for, or whether god did it. Therefore there is no free will, which we all know exists, otherwise, why have a consciousness, it would just make one aware of some bad thing coming without being able to do anything about it. A Universe is not needed unless there is a god who needs to spend his time playing with himself.

0

Darn! Who wants to try to talk to that bald asshole! He talks over both the lady and the caller. His style turns one off completely.

I could care less about STYLE
I care about TRUTH

@AgnoBill...You have a problem with bald people?

1

Maybe this helps.

1

Does it not strike you as somewhat odd that all of those who believe in a heaven and hell have managed to create one for themselves and nearly everybody around them. If someone believes that there is a heaven or hell which one enters after death then I wonder why they are waiting, surely they should be making all haste to get there. However, they may find as Nietzsche said: "In heaven all the interesting people are missing."

1

Most of us are free thinkers who dispassionately look at evidence

bobwjr Level 10 Oct 16, 2020
5

Examine the evidence...that is how we evaluate anything prior to concluding whether or not we believe it to be true. In these present times of so called alternative facts, it still holds as true as ever...there is no alternative to facts, alternative facts are fiction at best and downright lies at worst. This has always been true, and after 13.8 billion years of known existence of our universe, there is not one shred of evidence of the existence of a creator. Logic tells me that on laws of probability therefore, that the likelihood of one existing is nil. Evil and suffering are sadly part of the human condition, along with a propensity to believe in a non-existent and wholly manmade god.

2

I think it’s great that you’re considering possibilities. Having given god away with Santa and the Tooth Fairy as mythical, it worries me that people still think that a reasonable/ good all powerful being could allow this level of inhumanity in the world. At best such a being would be a bit sadistic, from my point of view.
All the best with making sense of it, from your view point.

0

Could you elaborate? What does the Kalam really makes you think?

The Kalam makes me question why there is anything at all; though I've heard the thermodynamic thing a bit and that energy may have always existed.

@tactic8 Yes, β€œwhy is there anything at all” is an excellent question. But what I was wondering is: what in the Kalam makes you think that there was or there is an entity that was the first cause?

@Rodatheist I don't know if there is a conscious entity that is the first cause, or not. Does anybody know one way or the other?

@tactic8 I’m sorry but you were the one who started by saying that β€œI don’t KNOW if an entity was the first cause or if there even was a first cause but the Kalam really makes one think.” as if you are saying that the Kalam really makes you think that there is an entity that was the first cause. I know by the way of reason that there is no such entity; but you are the theist and that is why I was asking what in the Kalam made you think that there is such an entity?

2

"Not knowing" and "having doubts" makes you wiser than all the televangelists combined. If you question your beliefs sincerely, examine the evidence rigorously, and then at the end of it, you still hold those beliefs and find they're consistent with the evidence, more power to you. It's those who hold a blind faith in the face of all evidence to the contrary that drive me batshit.

Thank you for the affirmation Paul4747. I think the thing is that social conservatives have painted themselves into a corner and are now in a position where they feel the need to try to prove 70 years of accusations against gays correct. Some say the ship has already sailed on the LGBTQ+/GRSM thing but I think they still want to tell the world not to touch themselves based on a 2000 year old book with contradictions and a baby-killing god. It's enough to make me batshit at times; and that's a fact...or a psychologically constructed label; or both. Thanks again, and I guess I should be happy to consider myself wiser (at times) than the televangelists, as if that says much o_0.

2

agnostic theists - sounds contradictory to me. These days people come up with all kinds of questionable composite positions. I myself as an atheist prefer to focus on creating a religion free secular world based on science, reason and social and economic justice, even if I won't live to see it.

I consider myself to be an agnostic atheist. I see agnostic theist as the other side of the coin.

I am an atheist because I absolutely do not believe any gods exist, either inside or outside of our universe. There is simply no need to insert one.

I am agnostic because I accept that it is something that cannot be known (at least when it comes to some generic, creator, being that we would call a god). I cannot say "there is no god" because it will then be upon me to prove it...and I simply cannot do that--no one can. I can only provide evidence against the existence of specific gods--the Abrahamic god, for instance.

An agnostic theist is saying that they cannot say that they KNOW that there is a god (because just as I cannot KNOW there isn't, they cannot KNOW there is). But they believe there is, or most likely is, some kind of god/universal consciousness that is responsible for creating the universe.

Agnostic Atheist: I cannot know, but I don't believe there is a god of any kind.
Agnostic Theist: I cannot know, but I believe there is some sort of creator god.

@Joanne I think we are on the same page with the definitions and I think your admitting that we can't know for certain one way or the other is honest. I guess they call it faith for a reason. Maybe energy always existed or maybe there had to be some eternal first cause. IDK

@tactic8 To clarify: I see no reason whatsoever to think that any kind of god exists. I refer to Occam's Razor which basically states: when searching for answers, don't add anything that is not necessary. Or, in other words, the simpler explanation is usually the correct one.

Science shows us that there is no need to give energy a consciousness or call it a god--and especially no need to give it human attributes. This simply adds an unnecessary layer of complexity. But, as said above, this simply cannot be known; but why add something if it isn't necessary.

This said, I have no issues with anyone who believes in some sort of creator being. I lingered at deism for awhile on my way from believer to atheist. I only have a problem with those who claim to KNOW there is a god and go further and claim to KNOW the will of this being and then try to force their beliefs onto others. I also have a problem with those who put us all at risk because they put their beliefs above scientific facts.

1

"Evil and suffering" good and bad? Which party gets to judge what is good and bad? The eagle or the mouse.

3

Let me assuage your doubts. Supernatural beings aren't real...ever, under any circumstances. They don't exist and neither do the magical realms they supposedly inhabit. The only thing that keeps them around is the irrational faith of all the people who have talked themselves into believing it by citing bullsh-t like the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

Two useful points to remember:

First, the universe didn't come from nothing, it came from something we can't explain because before the Big Bang, reality as we understand it didn't exist. How can anyone explain pre-reality? That's why theists think they can shoehorn their unproven God into it. Don't let them.

Second, the bottom line of ALL arguments in favor of God is that in order to believe any of them, you have to accept that they're trying to validate the notion that there's an invisible magical superbeing who reigns from his kingdom in the sky. That's fine in a game of D&D or in a movie or a book but otherwise it's just effing ridiculous and should not be taken seriously by anyone with an IQ higher than room temperature.

1

The kalam doesn't prove their is a first cause. The kalam doesn't prove there is a god either.

2

Regarding Kalam, you might be interested in this:

Mvtt Level 7 Oct 15, 2020

His first point was good enough to convince the hypothesis doesn’t support a creator god. Thanks for sharing πŸ™‚

2

The Epicurean dilemma was a prime motivating factor in my eventual dismissal of a personal, albeit capricious god, who, it is said, occasionally interferes with the natural chain of cause and effect. Having abandoned the notion of a personal, interactive deity, I retreated to the god of my avatar.

Deism advances the idea that an all-powerful being created the universe and its laws, then moved on to other more pressing matters, never to be heard from or seen. To the Deist, by the time human beings evolved, this supreme being had been completely absent for the better part of 13.7 billion years!

But even this idea is unsatisfying. Prior to the creation of the universe, what was this deity doing? How long had it existed in the nothingness of a non-existent universe? And what possible benefit do we gain by believing in something that can in no way be proven to exist and has zero impact on our own existence?

@p-nullifidian....I've heard the argument that we don't know that time even existed before the big expansion, and a theist could argue that too...and that therefore the question " long had it existed in the nothingness of a non-existent universe?" may be...um...moot perhaps.

@tactic8 Indeed! I have heard this too. String theory branes aside, there seem to be at least three major camps: that time had a finite beginning, that time is infinitely linear, and that time is cyclical. Which, if any of these models, do you subscribe to?

1

The premise might be wrong: maybe the universe always existed. The Big Bounce theory (as opposed to the Big Bang) postulates the universe is in an eternal cycle of expansion and contraction.
If you then say, 'Yes but how can that be? It must have had a beginning,' to that many would say, 'Well then 'god' must have too.'
'But god didn't HAVE a beginning,' to which they would say, 'Then maybe the universe didn't either.'
After all, energy can be neither created nor destroyed...

0

Any and all of any combination of theist, agnostic, and atheist are all of a kind: religious literalists. They either believe, don’t believe, or believe it can’t be known whether a literal God exists. All of it depends on the presence or absence of a belief in a literal God.

The other kind - religious figuratism - doesn’t depend on the presence or absence of belief. It is an observable, historic fact. Metaphor exists.

[agnostic.com]

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skado Level 9 Oct 15, 2020
5

Why is this important to you? Maybe try thinking about real things you could do that would improve the actual world we inhabit?

For one would involve actually working where the other is daydreaming.

Yes, refocusing on doing real things that would improve the world is good advice. It seems that people at Agnostic. are embedded in the larger system of the world with it's beliefs and the non-believers are still defining themselves by a lack of belief in god(s)...enough Agnostic., anyway. Just trying find some like minded people. Here's some food for thought: Do you know what his major at university was?: "Bible"

2

Nobody β€œknows”. Anybody who says they do β€œknow” is either mis-communicating or lying.

Mvtt Level 7 Oct 15, 2020
6

Why does one feel the need to create an invisible, imaginary being in order to create the universe? Why is it difficult to understand and accept that Nature and the laws that govern it has the same abilities of creation that any god(s) have? Nature is real, you can experience Nature with all your senses, can observe it, can test it, make predictions based on it. You do not have to imagine it.

12

Meh.
I'm an atheist. Unless and until there is credible and verifiable evidence to prove the existence of any god, I'm going to continue to live my life without believing in any of them.
Saying, "I don't know", is absurd.

For me, it's no different than saying, "I don't know if unicorns and leprechauns exist, so I'm going to leave the door open for that."
All gods are myths, just like unicorns and leprechauns.
All "holy" books are fiction as well.
All. Of. Them.

Best answer by far.

I love how reasonable you are!!!😘

@LovinLarge Thank you!

@Redheadedgammy You call me "reasonable", all my exes called me "crazy".
LOL

@KKGator many think I'm crazy. I would say you are in good company. I repeat. I always agree with your posts as if I wrote them.

@Healthydoc70 Thank you!

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