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Is science & religion compatible?

Shouldn't religion be classified as 'Paranormal : fraud' along with psychics, mediums, spiritists & mystics?

atheist 8 Apr 25
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It depends on how you define religion. Wikipedia says "There is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion."
Karen Armstrong says the common thread of all major world religions is compassion, and she literally wrote the book on the history of god. There is nothing about compassion that is incompatible with science.

skado Level 9 Apr 25, 2018

@atheist Are you saying compassion was not a common thread in all religions?

@atheist What TheMiddleWay said, plus:
Instead of saying religion equals fraud, it would be more accurate to say fraudulent religion equals fraud. Instead of government = fraud; fraudulent government = fraud. Instead of business = fraud; fraudulent business = fraud, etc. Lumping everything that religion has historically, and does currently represent under the heading of fraud is... fraud.

@atheist Good, but you’re still doing it.
That doesn’t rise to the level of the fraud that all fraudulent religion has perpetrated historically. FYP

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Galileo certainly thought so.

No, that's not a snarky back handed slap up against the church. Back in his day, if you wanted to pursue science, you went the way of the church. In fact, his day, and his input, were part of the turning point of this. Renee D'escartes, Tycho Brahe, and a bunch of others were, if not devout, trained in the church schools. None were academic slouches. The church, in fact, embraced "natural science" (physics, which included astronomy) up until that time.

According to a book, Infinitessimals, the concept of being able to cut things into smaller and smaller pieces is what tipped the balance as it implied things divine, to some clergy. They asked Galileo to weigh in on it. Galileo saw nothing extraordinary about the concepts and much to explore. He thought it should be embraced. The Jesuits opposed it and they won the day. What happened to Galileo you know (this is not directly related to his excommunication but it is a nail in that coffin).

From that time forward, the Italian churches and schools (almost one and the same) were not allowed to study or access this information and... Italy has not been a mover or shaker in the science scene since. Up until then, they were the center of the science scene.

Said scene moved North and soon thereafter a young philosopher by the name of Newton took this idea to the limit (pun intended) and designed the Calculus... 20 years later, Leibnitz was to publish his works which were entirely the same (no one stole from anyone, it's just another interesting story of the times and kind of implies that new ideas happen holistically when the right information is available to ponder).

Long and short of my long winded post is that science and theology worked hand in hand for a long time prior to this. It was the clergy that made a fateful, and egocentric, decision about the center of our universe and the implication that certain things are not to be known... which stalled the Italians for 700+ years... on the science scene.

Edit: just cleaned up some of the text as, upon reread, it was a bit confusing and fixed a grammar error. Note that this is gelled from recollections of the book Infintessimals (Amir Alexander [play.google.com], and my reading of history for many years. It's been a while since I read the book I am directly speaking too and the Jesuits were by no means the only actors in opposition to this idea, or to Galileo, but I recall they played a key role, according to Infinitessimals.

@atheist Having not read that set of myths ( 🙂 )... I disagree... but, my disagreement is in the interpretation of possible intent versus actual, literal, word. I take a look at the concept of Kosher (I know, judaism but go with it) and ask "why?" What benefit does a clergy get by writing that pork is not kosher in his nascent 'good book'?

His goal is to have a strong and fruitful flock, the more in his flock, the more support he has from said flock. It's a symbiotic relationship.

So, said learned scholar notices that people are dying and further makes the connection that all of the families that are dying in this particular fashion are families that have access to, and eat, pork... so, ban it. He further notices that some of the families don't suffer from said disease, either at all or very rarely, and watches their food preparation practices and decides that these methods ARE kosher. Why? So his flock is healthy.

Now, he hasn't a clue about disease or what the mechanic is behind why this is happening, other than that eating pork = higher risk of what we now know is trichinosis. However, he IS able to make the scientific observation of cause and effect, and some estimation of correlation and further to refine his theories. The evidence of said science is in the writing of the rules behind what is proper 'kosher' behavior and what is not.

Sure, it is couched in terms of mythology and commandments, but the fact is we have the "Laws of Physics", such as the laws of thermodynamics (or thermogoddamics) and etc that we use in science... the difference is not really there, in the reasoning, the difference is in the wrapping. Ie: which book the reasoning is published in.

Note too that the 'good book' is written for every man as not even all clergy are all universally the same level of 'intelligent' when it comes to critical thinking. What I mean is that they did NOT know what was going on but had pretty good theories that fit the evidence. We now have MUCH better theories and MUCH more evidence.... Hmm, where I am going is this: don't assume that they have our knowledge, they didn't. How would YOU explain to your 300 BCE (give or take) flock these concepts? Would you talk to them about bacteria and viruses? Nope, you don't know about them. But something you can NOT see or touch is doing it and how do you explain to them so that they... flourish?

Think about it. Give the original writers of these myths the benefit of the doubt, or, better still, imagine YOU are the one writing it and what your goals must be if you write this passage this particular way... AND if you restrict your knowledge to what they had then, is your writing a layman's explanation of the science you have discovered to help save them, or are you just fucking with them? I see it as writing things in language that their contemporaries understood and would follow.

@atheist But why foods then? Think it through, imagine you are the leaders of these peoples, what are your goals in that particular era? Why not some strange idol? Why focus on food? What benefit do you get from putting your efforts there?

While you are doing this, think like someone who doesn't believe, per se, but is in charge and in charge because your followers believe your clap trap. Don't get me wrong, it's possible, probable, that the authors believed their own folderol but they put a lot of effort into it, and scrutinized every word for maximal effect... remember, writing stuff down back then was the work of the wealthy, NOT everyone. So, why spend the expense to write these words?

@atheist I still think some of my reasoning was baked in there... I won't argue with your point.

Long and short is that there is some 'science' behind the moves, if none other than just logic.

Is there science of any kind behind religion? No. Well, other than the science of herding sheep to maximal profit (which could be inclusive, meaning the sheep and priests, or exclusive, meaning only the priests).

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Asking a question is often seeking to collaborate ones answer. You may be thinking that Christians cannot be scientific to which I would mostly agree but there are many religions. Some are more open to science for example Deism is very compatible to the scientific method.

@atheist how about Shinto and Buddhism. Islam was the most scientific religion at one time.

@atheist Off the bat,you are comparing a belief system to a rational system which are non-comparable (apples and oranges) but it is a question that is asked often and so I gave my answer(s). These 2 things can only be comparable if one allows the other one to be tolerated. Science cannot work rationally as a religion because it's a belief system but religion can accommodate science as a belief system and the examples I and others gave you demonstrate that. As long as religion accepts that god works in mysterious ways both science and some (maybe most) religions can be compatible from a religion's point of view.
EX: DaVinci was a openly gay scientific artist but the church believes his work of art was divinely inspired. Scholars think there are many anti-religious messages in his work. Michaelangelo's work The Creation of Adam is now perceived as a joke (God is in a cerebellum meaning God is the creation of the mind) yet a divine work of art from religions stand point.

@atheist So your original question is nonsense then.

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There have been a lot of scientists with religious convictions. This wiki list [en.wikipedia.org]
shows many. Some may be able to separate faith from scientific method. In the end they may attribute their findings to some mystical power but their methods are scientific.

@kcuhcortsa Right, I was not saying they were proving there was a mystical power.

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Science and religion can totally exist in the same way bacon and sausage do. Science explains natural phenomenon, religion explains the motivating impulse behind it all and outlines a system of social behavior to foster the continued survival of a culture thousands of years ago. Some of it is outdated and needs revision, but as long as you let science have its sphere of influence and religion its, they can coexist quite fine. It's when religion tries to do something science has already proven reliably and repeatedly simply by merit of anecdotal evidence from eyewitnesses 1700 years ago regarding events 2000 years and 4 language translations ago that the two start to conflict.

@kcuhcortsa my point is that if one chooses science, with its focus on replication of observation and the work that explains how things work is a better system of understanding the world and natural phenomena than religious narrative, which is largely or entirely reliant on anecdotal evidence in the form of oral narrative tradition, but faith/religion/spirituality does not intrinsically require that facet to serve an anthropological purpose. Removing the elements of religion which attempt scientific explanation and leaving behind the moral, ethical, and social ideologies as intended by religious systems, using religion as philosophy, I suppose. So I suppose I've kind of argued against myself, and will have to change my statement: yes, but only if you gut religious paradigm to suit a hybrid model.

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@atheists

They have secular Kabbalah texts, which would fall under the topic of "philosophy of science".

@atheist

It tells me that before forming reference material, there has to be a premise to it, and grasping the existence of that premise creates indefinite answers about the nature of reality, and stuff.

@atheist

You know.

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The answer is resoundingly yes, if your question concerns a person’s subjective state of mind. It’s well known that some scientists are religious. But they occupy different spaces in the mind, sort of the manic and depressive states of a manic-depressive person manifest themselves alternatively instead of simultaneously. But if your question concerns whether religion and science are in and of themselves incompatible, without regard to anyone’s state of mind, answer this: if a tree falls in a forest but no one is there, does it make a noise as it falls?

Science say yes.

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Yes, absolutely. One standard interpretation of quantum mechanics is that the material world can't exist without conscious observers. That's pretty much what George Berkeley, Bishop of Coyne contended in the early 18th century, and it is amazing to me that Bishop Berkeley's theory is still viable three centuries later. Perhaps that explains why Berkeley college at Yale and Berkeley California were both named after him.

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I've a few highly educated friends who are 7th day adventists. Most are surgeons. The common thread through their rationalization of the two is something like: "Science (medicine) is like a maintenance manual" but we cannot create a human.

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Science is compatible with religion only to the degree that the religious person is willing to admit that much of the dogma and scripture are nothing more than cultural myth.

@atheist hmm

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I say no, absolutely not. Faith is suspension of understanding, and science is the search for the truth... With Christianity, from the very first chapter of the Bible, one must deny science. We know that Genesis is flat out wrong; but the faithful "know" that the sciences are all wrong. They're at odds with one another from scene one.

Religion should be classified as a mental illness

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I've always said yes. For those who have only faith, they can always see science as Man's way to explain the work of God; it is provable - so it must not (cannot) go against God. This is no more than an updated way to explain the nature of things, since we have learned so much more than man could comprehend to write down two millenia ago.

I would be inclined to agree if and when the keepers of religion are willing to make the concession that admits that there was/is a wide knowledge gap between what was written in their sacred texts and what is known to be true and update their dogma accordingly. But does that actually happen? Realistically? Coherently?
The deeper I come in understanding of the knowledge that science gives us, the less I’m inclined to believe in the existence of god(s). But I’ll be the first the first to admit that it does not (and likely cannot) fully discount the existence thereof. If someone brings forth an argument that doesn't conflict with what I already know to be true, I’ll be at the very least willing to consider it. But feel free to miss me with young earth creationism, women with six arms and elephant heads, pantheons that live apart from us on mountains or alternate dimensions, but still deign to mingle with and procreate (really?) with mere mortals. I’m okay, thanks

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As Christopher Hitchens once said: They are not only incompatible, but irreconcilable.

@atheist " And the lion will lay down with the lamb but the lamb won't get much sleep " Woody Allen

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I think the question you're really asking is "Are science and fundamentalism/literalism compatible?" and the answer to that is so obvious as to not need asking. But the way you have worded your question makes it sound like you are asking "Are science and art compatible?" which is an equally unnecessary question for the opposite reason.

skado Level 9 Apr 26, 2018

@slavenomore I'm guessing (since there is no scholarly consensus) that your definition of "religion" falls closer to fundamentalism/literalism than to art, in which case I would have no argument with what you're saying.

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Religion is not compatible with science. And yes it is a fraud like psychics and mediums.

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They are as compatible as the differing questions they try to answer. How and why.

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Ultimately, by the standard definition of religion - no.

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They often are compatable, but for true believers... no.

Those who 'believe' in something don't do so because of fact or evidence - it is for a need to accept a 'truth'. Science searches for truth through evidence.

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Depends on what your definition of science and scientists. There are many with little understanding of science who have a faith in scientists that borders on religiosity. And on the other hand, there are some "scientist" who are religious. Recent research revealed that the largest proportion of members of all professions who attended church were doctors. Perhaps it is because they suffer with cognitive dissonance with respect to the poor medical science they have been indoctrinated with. Or maybe just seeking absolution for the deaths they have caused by following the big Pharma ethos.

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Absolutely not.

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Science is compatible with anything that’s demonstrably true and incompatible with anything that’s demonstrably false. Science does not speak directly to the existence of god(s) one way or the other; it makes no attacks on any of them, but if it attacks the foundations they were built on, then those foundations ARE demonstrably false and it stands to reason that at least THOSE gods who stand upon shoddy premises don’t exist.
THOSE religions are incompatible with science because they attempted explanations that turned out to be misguided. They claimed objective truth, but objective truth doesn’t falter under increased scrutiny and doesn’t wilt under brighter light.
Science is a remarkably simply test; if true, you pass and if not, then not. Anyone that claims that science attacks their religion is just complaining that the test is too hard and admitting that they (the authors of said religion) didn’t study for it.

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Not compatible. At all.

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