Agnostic.com
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(Gnostic) Atheism and the Burden of Proof - Richard Playford

As in sciences, virtually all reality as we know it (one in the same as I see it) and ...in philosophy, even if all the arguments for a proposition fail, it does not follow that the proposition is false. (RP)

Now I promise the article is barely a page but I'm certain (almost in a 'gnostic' way) the only GAs responding won't bother to read it.

This is not a matter of their beliefs (as indeed they are, as sure as they are for the gnostic theist) but their behaviors on this website. I've beaten back my playground bullies...either in pointless debate, reporting them for harassment, standing toe to toe with them with insults...most still n this site know to just leave be alone...BUT...

I've been made aware many of these bullies are just laying in wait for newcomers to pounce on. I've seen it, I've reported it and I will continue to do so when I come across it or I'm made aware of it.

A final word to gnostic atheists: While we are all here as guests the name of this site is AGNOSTIC.COM. You are truly the outsiders here and to attack the members this site was designed for is to assure as brief a stay here as your average gnostic theist.

It has come to my attention atheist.com is now a (probably scam) free music site...feel free to check for yourself. Still, I'm sure there are many other sites you might go to vent your rage at those who don't believe as you do...

Good luck with that!

[crossexamined.org]

DangerDave 9 Apr 1

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7 comments

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1

Reminds me of a song..."Looking for love in all the wrong places".

I think that if there is a god then that belief is not provable or reasonable, and the notion of god is not an empiric notion, i.e., found in the world. Caputo argues that God does not exist, God insists, and that God’s existence depends upon us.

Perhaps some people experience a demand, a calling, then saying that god that lives within them. We actual do not have good definitions for 'Existence' or 'reality', so to try to pigeon hole something as being or not being may work in the science of probabilities but this does not work outside this framework where human social realities instill their values into reality.

cava Level 7 Apr 2, 2019
1

The notion in the article that the burden of proof is on atheist to prove that God doesn't exist is plainly ridiculous. Its the Theists and evangelical Christians in particular who have, and continue to go around the world by the millions evangelizing and trying to convert non-christians to change their traditional views and adopt the story if Jesus and the existence of their christian God. And, they assert that because their belief system is true, others must conform to a truck load of significant obligations beyond simply believing - including to put money into the churches and to stand in opposition to those who do no believe. They have, in fact, murdered millions in the process of forcing their beliefs on every culture they can get their hands on. It is most definitely the Christian who have the obligation to prove the existence of their gods (Jesus, God, the Saints, etc.). They make the assertion. Its their crusade. And a destructive on at that.

MrLink Level 8 Apr 2, 2019

@DangerDave the me fact of the absence of evidence that god exists can be evidence of the absence of god.

0

Well said friend

bobwjr Level 10 Apr 2, 2019
0

It has come to my attention that you are neither a believer or a non believer. I'd bet that you're a believer hedging their bets on whether to believe or not believe. Claiming not to know says nothing about what you believe or don't believe!
Still, I'm sure there are many other sites you might go to vent your rage at those who don't believe as you do...

zblaze Level 7 Apr 1, 2019
0

This article is from 'Christian Apologetics Alliance
answering seekers, equipping Christians, and demonstrating the truth of the Christian world view.'

First of all, shame on you DangerDave.

This is exactly the kind of article that a Christian apologist and believer would post because of their dishonest and disingenuous perspectives of what atheism means.

Gnosticism and Agnosticism are positions of knowledge or lack of it, other than a reason to believe/Theist or not believe/Atheist, they are not positions on belief.

There are Agnostic Atheists, and Agnostic Theists as well as Gnostic Theists. The Agnostic ones are at least being honest.

A Gnostic Atheist would be someone that claims to know that a god or gods exist, while at the same time not believing that they do. I haven't seen anyone on this site with those delusions, and if they have been they won't last long.
Gnos·ti·cism
/ˈnästəˌsizəm/
noun

1. a prominent heretical movement of the 2nd-century Christian Church, partly of pre-Christian origin. Gnostic doctrine taught that the world was created and ruled by a lesser divinity, the demiurge, and that Christ was an emissary of the remote supreme divine being, esoteric knowledge (gnosis) of whom enabled the redemption of the human spirit. 

IMO it is an oxymoron, and the term is not used once in the bullshit article. A good example of bullshit is this excerpt from the article; "“agnostic atheist.” This has been defined in a number of different ways but one definition is “one who does not know for sure if any gods exist or not but who also does not believe in any gods.”[5]The problem with this definition is that it does not give us a complete account of what the person believes. This fails to tell us whether they believe in God’s non-existence (the belief that he does not exist)."

LOL Problem? The problem is you believers[Are you a believer DD?] want a "complete account of what the person believes", you can't accept their disbelief as a valid position. I am an agnostic atheist, and I believe the sun is a star, the earth is round, and that grass grows quickly in the spring.....I could go on. I do however lack a belief in gods, so I'm an Atheist, like it or not.

This is what I accept as a definition of Atheism; "Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.

Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Older dictionaries define atheism as “a belief that there is no God.” Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions.[As they do in your Christian article) The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as “there is no God” betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read “there are no gods.”

You either know or you don't, you either believe or you don't. Either way, a position on the first is not a "middle ground" position on the latter.

zblaze Level 7 Apr 1, 2019

By placing Gnostic in front of Athiest he an affirmation of Atheism. In other words the Gnostic claims to have knowledge of the supernatural in that it for a fact does not exist.

@DangerDave I get it because I'm purely agnostic and have been relentlessly in banter with Athiests. Thiests seem to respect my position more than the Athiests. I actually thought there would be more Agnostics but from activity I'd guess 70-85% Athiest, <5% Thiest and the remaining being Agnostic.

@Biosteelman Gnostic is the incorrect term to describe that type of Atheism. Hard Atheism or Strong Atheist would be a much more appropriate one.
Gonostic/knowing gods exist is opposed to Agnostic/not knowing gods exist.

The definition of the word Gnostic is about as easy to nail down as a flopping fish. It is derived from the Greek word gnosis, meaning “to know.” In the case of Gnosticism, what is “known” has shifted over the thousands of years since Gnosticism first reared its head during the formation and solidification of the early church.
adjective Also gnos·ti·cal.
pertaining to knowledge.
possessing knowledge, especially esoteric knowledge of spiritual matters.
( initial capital letter ) pertaining to or characteristic of the Gnostics.
noun
( initial capital letter ) a member of any of certain sects among the early Christians who claimed to have superior knowledge of spiritual matters, and explained the world as created by powers or agencies arising as emanations from the Godhead.

There is no such thing as a Gnostic Atheist. Your description "In other words the Gnostic claims to have knowledge of the supernatural in that it for a fact does not exist.", is absurd. No Gnostic would ever claim that.

Please remember that this article is from 'Christian Apologetics Alliance
Answering seekers, equipping Christians, and demonstrating the truth of the Christian world view.'

And even they don't use the term gnostic atheist.

0

It seems to me that with regard to the existence of God the most rational choices are either to lean toward atheism, to lean toward theism, or to be undecided. Those choices are nothing but personal value judgments or emotions and are of little importance except for those who like conflict.

The question of God’s existence can not be definitely decided. No one can define or understand God, so to divide up into opposing camps and fight over the issue is nothing but blind stupidity, arrogance, ignorance, or some combination thereof.

The meaning of existence can not be understood by humans—to go on about the existence of God is nothing but a farce. There are various concepts that can be given the god label, and some of them probably have a modicum of truth, but what of it? The correct state of mind for us humans is one of confusion and bewilderment IMO.

Having said all this, it is important to not allow authoritarian religious organizations to dominate society. That is a different issue altogether.

I think one thing that is rarely mentioned in relation to the existence of "God" is what that even means. As someone who has lived among the full spectrum of Christian beliefs and a few non Christian ones I will say the specifics of the concept of God varies massively among the faithful. When people ask me if I believe in God I ask them who's? As my concept of the particulars of "God" are generally very different then most. Now I do understand the Atheist position of refuting the existence of God which primarily seems rooted in the actions of people who claim that they work with such an entities blessing and at such a entities command. Of course one can reasonably say they are full of shit and are just using "God" as an excuse to do stuff and feel like they do not have to be held responsible for it. I am still a firm believer in action being the measure of a person not there faith or lack thereof. This is why I find some Atheists war on ANY belief to be silly and quite often driven by the same motivations of the zealot Christians, Muslims etc. Namely a need to find meaning not through ones actions but through others obedience to ones point of view.

1

Hm. I just don't see it in such adversarial terms. Nor do I see GAs as you put it, to be very common. And certainly not creeping about, "laying in wait", etc.

You must have a pretty low bar for what constitutes an "attack". It sounds suspiciously like how a lot of conservative Christians are, always confusing simply failing to agree with "attack", as well as "rudeness" and other things it is not.

I will argue with the best of them when we're in a philosophical debate mode but IRL I have friendships with theists, Republicans, even people who, while not precisely Trump supporters, inexplicably, don't see what the problem with him could possibly be, etc. In short I put more emphasis on what we have in common as humans than on our differences.

But you wouldn't necessarily know that from my online persona because people come to many sites specifically to debate these matters, and then, weirdly, can't stand the heat in the kitchen.

Of course when it comes to this site, possibly because it is partially for dating, possibly because it just doesn't attract as many theists, it may be that people are here less to debate, and that is fine, and I respect that by not turning everything into a debate. However when a thread lays down a gauntlet, I will express my views just like the person who starts the conversation. If this is an "attack" or "laying in wait", then I plead guilty as charged [shrug].

mordant Level 8 Apr 1, 2019

For my part I have not had many "trolls" as it were and definitely lean more towards believing in a entity not so much as an infinite God but more as a presence not understand by us and existing in a context we are not capable at this time in understanding. The worst for me is people who respond with statements with no value beyond you suck and I hate you. I have had a few of those but I ignore them or respond reasonably in an attempt to answer what they may have said that deserves response. I do think there are more then a few people who post things who are only interested in people who agree with them. They annoy me.

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