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Please guys, if non-fiction psychology writing is your thing.... please consider sharing your opinion on this chicken or the egg kind of question! What came first in humanity, the Narcissist or Narcissistic abuse? This question becomes quite complex when you consider personifying environmental circumstances and their impact on human behavior. it is very much so comparable to the chicken or the egg concept as someone can actually develop narcissism through narcissistic abuse, in fact they can develop many other personality disorders as the result of such as well.

Secular_Squirrel 7 Sep 11
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My answer to your question has to stem from survival tendencies. Prior to tribes, being self serving or narcissistic was the only way to be. So I'd have to assume that based on evolutionary traits that help us survive, the narcissist came first. With that understood, cultural validation to that behavior are the catalyst to creating the modern narcissist. In other words learning by mistreatment that the only way to survive is to mistreat others is one catalyst but so is over indulgence of dopamine. Meaning that if I do "x" I feel happy or more specifically, pleasure. So to abtain "x" regardless of injury to others equals pleasure. Narcissist before the narcissistic behavior, in my opinion.

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Interesting question. I'm gonna thinking about it and reply later

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Your question can be answered by looking at anthropology and history. Hunting gathering, tribal societies don't have narcissists. Narcissism develops with class privilege. The emergence of inequality creates a whole host of psychological And social! problems!

Krish55 Level 8 Sep 11, 2018

@Secular_Squirrel Again, in looking at the development of early civilization and class-based societies, we will find the answer.
The Warrior class enforced the acceptance of classes upon those who were exploited. Similarly, but more insidiously, the priestly Class got the downtrodden to accept inequality and injustice in return for supposed rewards after death…
Today, these roles are fulfilled by the police at home and our military abroad. Our televangelists fulfilled a second role…
Going back to the original question, it is no surprise that we find the highest level of narcissists in these groups and in politicians and businessmen.
Narcissism is generally a product of class privilege!

@Secular_Squirrel Your first comment is very simplistic. Violent crime is generally a product of poverty. This doesn't mean that every poor person is a violent criminal. Same with narcissism and privilege. Look, we have the capacity for both selfishness and sharing in our genes. The type of society we live in (competitive vs. cooperative) will determine how those are balanced in what behaviors we exhibit.

@Secular_Squirrel And how on Earth is this to be done ?

@Secular_Squirrel How about we just work for a more just society?

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There is no chicken and the egg dilemma. The egg came 1st . we know this from evolution.

Krish55 Level 8 Sep 11, 2018

Wouldn't evolution suggest that the "chicken" came first? The splitting of cells would have created the animal and the necessity of reproduction would transfer to egg creation via the inability to replicate. Take viruses and bacteria as an example.

@Fibonacci1618 You are ignoring the known chronology of evolution. Egg laying reptiles existed long before there were any birds. Birds evolved from these reptiles. Chickens evolved from an earlier form of bird. The egg came 1st .

@Krish55 My point isn't about the literal chicken. It's about reproductive organs and the production of an egg. The transition from mitosis to eggs. From ameba to plant like to reptilians which lead to egg laying blah blah blah.

@Fibonacci1618 I agree with your last 3 words !

@Krish55 maybe a picture will help you, since blah blah blah seems to be you understood....

No no no no. The CHICKEN came first. I was there.

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Question: Can narcissistic abuse exist where there is no narcissism?

That would be my theory. As far as I can tell most every psychological torment we pass down amongst ourselves can be boiled down to a cycle of shame and entitlement. Everything from the metaphor of our fall from grace to how kids get scolded for something and become obsessed with it later. We accept shame for something that wasnt our fault, and then if we give in to the tendency to internalize it in unhealthy ways and we take it out on the next generation, the cycle begins anew. The first narcissist to abuse someone else was probably someone who was neglected/isolated/abandoned for a not necessarily narcissistic reason, and developed an unhealthy level of self concern as a defense mechanism if I had to guess.

@Secular_Squirrel -- It would seem that it does. It also appears that the answer to your question is straightforward. Narcissism came first, otherwise there could be no narcissistic abuse.

@Secular_Squirrel -- Which simply says that your chicken/egg question answers itself. Narcissism came first. End of problem. QED

@Secular_Squirrel -- I can tell that you're really in love with this idea. Knock yourself out.

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