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Do you think that information can be destroyed, or do you think that it is a permanent component of the universe’s anatomy?? This is very important for the reconciliation of all facts and truths. If information can be destroyed, then there are no facts or truths and everything would therefore be subjective. On the other hand, if information is permanently preserved in a given spacetime then fact and truth are demanded by descriptive logic. The latter would facilitate objective reality, and thusly descriptive law. The former opens up the flood gates for human power struggles, wars, and prescriptive law. What are your thoughts??

Shifty 4 Aug 21
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Not destroyed, but misplaced or hidden maybe, which I guess is just the same as if someone has an agenda to mislead. It's supposedly impossible to create new energy or destroy energy. Information must also be stored within that energy somehow somewhere in the universe then.

The question to me is if the information is accessible or not. For example, would it be safe to say that there could have been a civilization before the earliest that we know that could have been destroyed, but we have no idea about it because that information is no longer accessible to us through our understanding and senses or measurable tools? Could it have happened 3 times or 100 times or 10,000 times?

I also have wondered about deleting files from your computer. When you delete them, they seem to leave your computer's hard drive, but where do they go? Can anything ever REALLY be deleted?

I don't think that what you said necessarily means that it would facilitate objective reality. It's still all based on our perception. I'm not sure there is universal truth or fact on a LARGER scale. There is fact and truth based on our experiences and molding over time. We can go back and get some information based on our own LOCAL dealings to prove someone said an exact word or that someone shook someone's hand or stole that loaf of bread etc. Our brain fills in holes to try and make sense of things though. This has been proven. There was a scientist who demonstrated it in a presentation. I wish I could remember the name of the video on YouTube. There can be completely different rules of nature somewhere else, or even in another dimension (if they exist). This can be a broad subject that can be discussed for a long time without getting anywhere though. It's kind of a circular argument because probably neither side is provable.

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Most truths are conditional - absolute truths are always true.

gater Level 7 Aug 22, 2018
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You're muddying the waters.

  1. Facts: have nothing to do with the observations of a sentient being. Someone can be wrong and it does not affect the reality of the fact. It can be proven time and again objectively and does not require anyone's recollection.
  2. Memory: has varying degrees of accuracy. You can debate that much of history is affected by this and some histories are colored as chosen by the writers. Depending on the number of viewers the potential error rate climbs as the viewers drop. For instance, one person says they saw a spaceship or millions of people were witness to the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
  3. Truth: is a concept that there is an objective viewpoint that would be in concert with historic reality.
  4. Information: is simply data, someone can lie to me and still provide information.

Some information can be destroyed such as memories and truths can be forgotten or altered but facts cannot. Facts are not required to be remembered.

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I think you're confusing the word "information" as it pertains to vastly different areas of inquiry. There's information in the classical sense -ie "I have information pertaining to Russian collusion and the Trump Campaign. However, when one asks the question of whether information can be destroyed, they're usually taking about in the physics sense which is defined as the measurable properties of a particle or collection of particles, such mass, charge, spin, momentum, etc... It's an important scientific question with tangible consequences for relativistic and quantum physics, but it has no real bearing on information in the common vernacular. If it turns out that information (measurable qualities of particles) CAN be destroyed (black holes being the prime candidates) it will not affect information as we commonly understand it. It will not undo any collusion with Russia, it will not destroy any evidence of said collusion -unless they physically throw that evidence into a black hole- and it will not erase any knowledge thereof.
BTW, sorry to keep harping on the collusion example, butt I'm the type to take analogies and run with them.

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Information can, for all intents and purposes, be lost. When the great library at Alexandria burned a lot of information was lost forever. And some was rediscovered. Whether or not information is stored in a parallel universe is pretty much irrelevant unless you have some way to access it. I doubt that all information becomes subjective if it can be destroyed. Facts are facts, whether or not anybody knows them.

In this day and age , considering cloud storage , I suspect rather than being lost , information is more likely to be buried . Unless you know specifically what you're looking for , and how to research it , it may be difficult to find , even if it's properly stored and indexed .

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Matter and energy are interchangeable at a certain level and can not be truelly destroyed just converted. In that sense certain truths are eternal. Can knowledge or information be destroyed? Of course awareness of a fact can be destroyed, however it does not alter the facts. Information relating to facts can be destroyed but it again does not destroy what is fact.

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This is a very good and thoughtful question. I am just thinking: Is there any way that information can be permanent without there being some kind of non physical intelligence such as what people usually think of as some kind of "god"? I am open to hear a good answer from someone.

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"Do you think that information can be destroyed, or do you think that it is a permanent component of the universe’s anatomy?"

Information is stored in records. Can records be destroyed? By all means. The library of Alexandria, the House of Wisdom in Baghdad, the destruction of Memory Alpha by the 'Minds of Zetar,' 😉
Great losses can occur, and without back-ups once the data is lost, it is lost forever.

But this only relates to our attempts to gather, store and analyze information. Phenomena, discoveries and observations of fact are necessarily dependent on an observer. We are the recorders of all information we collect, produce and disseminate. However, it seems to me that the universe would continue and function just as it does today, even if our entire planet were destroyed by an asteroid.

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"Information" is such a nebulous term, I can't make sense of your question. In some cases, information is perception; different people might literally see a color differently due to their brain's interpretation of information, but as long as they agree it's red, this information remains persistent. Additionally, how do you define "information being destroyed"? Do you mean wiping a disk drive? A person dying and thus info in the brain going away? The rings of a tree destroyed by fire? The same or similar information can often be redundantly stored in multiple ways; the information that is lost by a witness of an event who dies may still be retained by another witness of the same event, or perhaps a TV news camera. And if there is nothing to record an event, does that mean the event didn't happen? Is it possible for information not to be recorded in some fashion?

godef Level 7 Aug 21, 2018
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O.K., I bite. When you say permanent component of the Universe, would you suppose that the information we receive on Earth is available to us if we leave the solar system domain, or our galaxy, and relocate on another planet, in another dimension. I think we are subjective to the cognitive powers of the solar light were we are located. We may not have the same information available to us every where in the universe, nor the same ability to be in it, or it in us. Over, and out !

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Yes. No. And bull.

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Doesn't matter. Without the means to "mine" the information, this is an exercise in mental masterbation.

You are kidding, right !

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If I may add another dimension to this discussion, our perception of time is linear. However, it is not. Scientific equations going back to Einstein have pointed to this. Current physicists have come up with the equation and many are still trying to wrap their heads around it. Everything that has ever happened or will happen exists right now. So if past and future do not exist, all information exists now all at the same time. We have not figured out how to access it from our linear perspective however. So based on that I would say no it can not be lost. We just need to learn how to retrieve it.

Finally some body who is taking this discussion seriously. Thanks for your input.

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Quantum Physics may prove parallel information exists but that is yet to be accomplished. All current evidence points to information being lost. For example in a sentient context there is no natural transfer of lifetime information (memories or cognitive extension) upon death to anyone or anyplace in this universe. Another fact that points to information loss is the unsophisticated mind state at infancy. There are vestiges of instinctual behavior like sensory systems, mimicry, and stress responses i.e.crying, but no higher level cognitive information. In the context of space time there is no evidence that information is preserved past the event horizon. Lastly in the human social context information is preserved though communication (e.g, verbal, written, and signals) but over time this information could be lost due to cataclysmic natural or man made events.

You are so wrong. Or in denial.

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Let's try an experiment: Ask Admin to delete this post and see we we can unsee it.

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Do you know anything that you can unlearn? I don't believe information is physical in nature or of a material state that would allow its destruction. Civilizations can crumble and the knowledge contained can be lost temporarily, but I doubt that's what you are talking about.

Information encrypted into the structure of the universe isn't information as in what we'd record in books or digitally, but rather is the foundation of existence. If it can be destroyed we'll never know when it is.

JimG Level 8 Aug 21, 2018

I so agree with you .

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Okay. Clue... What you don't know... you can't make a point to destroy.

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