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I’ve been very involved in my local town hall. At this month’s meeting they started the tradition of adding saying the Pledge of Allegiance (fine) and a Christian prayer (not fine). When I voiced my opinion opposing this, I was told that Congress and most of then surrounding municipalities do this. They also added that if I didn’t like it, I should step outside during this part of the meeting. I haven’t begun researching counterinformation yet. I’m pretty sure anyone not Christian is viewed as not worthy of life.

This is a small rural community. Any suggestions on valid arguments that might make sense to decision makers (who are all older, white, good ole boys from the country)? Or should I save my breath?

Bethany 4 Aug 22
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37 comments

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0

why are so many people saying to save your breath? this town hall gang is breaking the law. saying they can do this because we are (purportedly) a democracy is like saving leave the bank robbers alone because this is a democracy. congress does it too, yep. they're breaking the law too.

i wouldn't pull any of the stunts folks are recommending. i also wouldn't grin and bear it, or step outside either. just call ffrf.

g

2

Check to see if the Satanic Temple has a counter prayer. Argument is that they have to be all inclusive or nothing at all.

1

It depends on how much effort you are willing to put into it. If you see yourself moving away in a couple of years, then I'd say not worth it.

Nada Level 3 Aug 24, 2018
1

I think you've probably already figured out by now that the Freedom From Religion Foundation is a good resource, but the larger question, for me at least, is how hard up are you? Are you willing to go to the mat on this one? Do you have kids or a spouse who would be drawn into this? And to what extent is your livelihood dependent on your community? Do you wish to retire there? Do you have any allies in this fight, or are you the sole champion?

It's your call to make in this struggle, but go into it with eyes wide open, would be my advice. Peace.

4

Bring a rug and start praying 5x a day 🙂 see if they like that.

I was thinking a colander, but the prayer rug would proabably send a more forceful message.

2

Talk to FFRF and let them know when and where that is happening. Onlline, go to FFRF.org

yrral Level 3 Aug 23, 2018
1

Talk to FFRF and let them know when and where that is happening. Onlline, go to FFRF.org

yrral Level 3 Aug 23, 2018
3

Contact the Freedom From Religion Foundation. They will likely send a letter pointing out that this is illegal. Most towns back off, as they always lose if it goes to suit.

2

I think you should write an atheist creed that asserts your rights that you can recite during prayer time. If people don't like it they can stop praying and you will too.

1

You might suggest that once or twice a year they invite a humanist chaplain or celebrant to give a humanistic evocation, offering inspirational words of wisdom enshrining human values and ethics.

Perhaps back up any suggestions or complaints about the Christian prayers by providing up to date statistics of your town or county to show that some percentage of the citizens they serve should be included rather than offended by the worship of a supernatural deity. Humanistic prayers are all inclusive and non-offensive, as they address, well, humans, who in turn can pray to their god if desired, or inspired.

2

Save your breath .

4

I agree with another comment here.call the church of satan. They will send a priest out to say a satanic prayer before the hall. You won't BELIEVE how quickly they will change the guidelines on praying before once that happens. Hell, if your close to Minnesota, I may do it for you. Getting the paper work to be a member of the s.t. is pretty easy, I hear.

3

Save your breath! You would probably get into a bit of a mess with these guys as rationale isn't the strong suit. Even going outside will cause problems. If you want peace and quiet in that area probably best to keep go along and think your own thoughts while the prayers are happening. Principles are all very well but one has to be aware of responses to them and are we happy to live with any fallout.

2

One thing I have done in the past is to just act totally incredulous when some religious beliefs or stories are told. For example, once I heard about this guy at work who gave most of his money away because he thought the rapture was coming. The person who told the group I was in acted almost embarrassed telling it. I'd heard stories like that before but I acted stunned and said they must be lieing, that no one could be that dumb. I finally acted convinced and made a point of saying that religion makes people think the strangest things. Then I kept bringing it up - "but I still can't believe they really gave their money away! That's just absurd!"
The point is to make them feel included in the realization of how ridiculous a lot of it is. Like - "so, you're Catholic? Do people really believe that transmogrification stuff? Isn't that kinda like magic?".

3

You should say you've had a change of heart and ask to lead a prayer. Then use some really offensive Bible quote to support something really offensive. Something like
"Today, Lord, give us the strength to stand against even our own family when they sin. For, as Leviticus 21:9 tells us - 'A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.'"

Check out [evilbible.com]

Or not. I probably wouldn't be that brave. ?

Love it! Ha!

2

Just thought of something else. Call the Satanists.
They LOVE this kind of stuff and would probably file suit to have their
prayers said at meetings, too.
They have been extremely successful at beating the "christians" at their
own game. They might just be a really good ally in this fight.

0

Hmm..the law has been ambiguous on this point, but this article has some legal info

Link: [ffrf.org]

0

Separation of church and state violation. Oh, and Congress is also violating.

1

Just tell them all the bad things they used to do before and don't do anymore. Examples: slaves worship gods of odin, thought tomato was poison and potato was poison. Women did not have the vote or could own property you get the drift.

5

Any pragmatist would suggest saving your breath. If you really want to oppose it try a 'letter to the editor'.

Not sure if any of my arguments would work, but people are free to pray, sing, pledge, handle snakes and roll on the floor about any time the 'spirit' moves them as long as they don't interfere with others' rights to be free of the nonsense by imposing it on them.

The business of a 'town hall', or for that matter even athletic events, is the PURPOSE for the gathering. My suggestion is and has always been for them to merely publish an actual meeting/event start time and a pre-meeting ritual start time that allows ritual participants adequate time and freedom to babble in or out of tongues, sing, pledge or anything else on the pre-meeting agenda. It is a win:win.

The theological fanatics wishing to use any and all gatherings to aggrandize themselves by taking turns at the 'invocations' will fight it tooth and nail because it's viewed as good exposure - advertizing for their respective congregations. If you are in a community of civilized people who are fair minded and who are closeted objectors too, it might make some progress.

By announcing two times it shows recognition and respect for their craziness while providing those who are there for 'business' an opportunity to get to it without squirming through a bunch of superstitious hoo haa.

1

I don't say the pledge at city Planning Commission meetings though the insist on saying it. I do stand but say nothing or put my hand on chest. I can tell it makes some uncomfortable but so does that mindless pledge to a piece of cloth.

I do the same. I consider it a small contribution to humanity.

@Omen6Actual don't understand your comment.

@trblemaker I'm a white male, supposedly privileged. In some ways I am for certain but I also know thus country doesn't give two shits about me. Never has. When I see liberty and justice for all I might think different. Until then, that is a bullshit lie!

8

Quote Matthew to them and then express your concerns about meeting with a group of hypocrites and blasphemers...

Matthew 6:5-6 New International Version (NIV)
Prayer
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I like that! Thanks for the info!

@Bethany You're quite welcome...🙂

I've never understood the need for so many Christians to gush on and on about their "close personal relationship" with god. The Jesus character always struck me as more of a put-up-or-shut-up figure when it came to demonstrations of one's faith.

Additionally, maybe it's just me, but I've always felt that openly and freely sharing details of a "close personal relationship" with any Tom, Dick and Harry to be rather, for lack of a better term, tacky...

3

Well...from the brief google search I just did...you are both right. Seems the Supreme Court ruled about a decade ago that it was ok...but also ruled against schools organizing prayer type functions. Of course the Supreme Court upheld slavery at one time, and other injustices, that were only changed once people in general got their heads out of their colons. I don't give too much moral or justice credence to them. Seems they typically just rubber stamp whatever is in the governments interest at the time.

I would do some research, possibly reach out to the ACLU or similar organizations to get knowledgeable legal input. I would also see about recruiting other religious organizations to come in and pray (wiccians, Jewish Rabbis, Native American Shamans, Satanists, etc). From what I can tell, they can do it, but can't only allow certain religions (Christians) while refusing others (Muslim Imans).

On another note, how important is this issue to you. You might be right and get it blocked, but at what cost to your ability to chime in on other topics. While it shouldn't matter, we all know that if you raise a ruckus on this, all the Bibe-thumpers will ignore you on anything and everything else you might say going forward.

some times it is worth it to fix what is wrong

@benhmiller completely agree, but sometimes you also have to pick your battles. Not sure the community or the problems it faces. Not saying don't stand up, just advising to think all possibilities and repercussion through

@jondspen great input, thank you! And I’ve been weighing the pros and cons of pursuing this...

1

With all considerations, nonbelievers were not included in the constitution and it would be even more disrespectful to force the religious rules on them. furthermore, it is impossible not to offend a different religious cult especially when there is a specific religious rule are forced upon them. An example is forcing a Jewish person to honor a demigod or a Cristian to observe the rules of Hanukkah.

3

You might begin by asking if people of all religions are welcome to our town hall or only Christians. Presumably they will indicate that, yes, all religions are welcome. In that case suggest that different religious leaders come in and lead the prayers of their respective religions. In my experience that is usually rejected and the explanation is usually something like "We simply prefer Christian prayers because most of us are Christians". To insist that, in oder to make all religions feel welcome, we should do prayers in as many different religions as people can be found to represent those religions. People frequently become pretty defensive at allowing prayers in different religions but, as an exercise, it (hopefully) demonstrates the religious bias so many people have. It might even demonstrate that religion really has no place in a town hall meeting. - Just a thought.

OCJoe Level 6 Aug 22, 2018

I like that idea a lot! Thank you!

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