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The Real Problem
I Love this site and the clarity of thinking exhibited, even love chasing down the trolls, lol!
However, I see a pervasive myth that if we just show the religious the Truth, they will quickly see the light as we have.
I believe this is completely false thinking, because Most of what people get from religion, on a day to day basis, is the Community of it, which goes deep into our genetics...a tribe member had a much better chance of surviving, procreating, having a good quality of life, than a loner.
If we wish to truly reach the average person, we need to have a replacement for that sense of belonging....you even see people on here who have "seen the light of reason", asking about where & when they can find "community" (usual answer, UU or similar).
The feeling of being "tended" by an all-seeing mystical parent, I think most people could be weaned from, but replacing the feeling of BELONGING is a huge obstacle!

AnneWimsey 9 Sep 13
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42 comments

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5

Well stated. All a logical, rational thinking person can do is present the evidence, facts and data in support of reality and "let the chips fall as they may". You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

4

Why must we "ween" people from believing in anything? I'm for "live and let live".

My saying is "You do you, I do me", which is live and let live, I must add the caveat, "let's strive to do or cause no harm". Therein lies the difference.

@jlynn37
I'm with you sir.
Unfortunately, we don't seem to be wired that way.
Not just religion though. Apparently any excuse will activate the "My way or the highway" gene.

4

I guess I have enough interaction with others that I already have a feeling of community.

1

I couldn't agree more. I understand that some non-religious Unitarian "churches" attempt to fill that need. I guess some Unitarian "churches" are religious, presumably tied to Christianity, and some (most?) have no connection with Christianity (I'm not an expert in this regard). My wife was Jewish (not very religious but still Jewish) and after we had kids she wanted the kids to get Jewish instruction. We joined a temple for several years but I was eventually convinced that Judaism was just as hocus-pocus as Christianity. Where I did not buy the religious aspects, I very much appreciated the connection with the community and, to some degree, the fellowship tied to the religion. I believe that the sense of belonging and connection with the community has far more draw to religion than the actual devotion to or .

OCJoe Level 6 Sep 13, 2018
3

Obviously you can not change another person—only they can change themselves. What might not be obvious is that the other person’s opinions might just be superior to our own, and that perhaps it is we who need to learn and change.

IMO, more important than to express opinions is to respect each other.

0
1

@AnneWinsey Please feel free to send information about suspected Trolls/Scammers to my Group *Trolls, Scammers & Nigerian Russian Wives

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We use reverse image searches and other technology to analyze profiles and to identify trolls and scammers.

I enjoy being snarky to them, actually...it would be a far duller site without them and their obviously "I am so clever" attempts, lol

1

I agree. We are tribal primates. To the sense of belonging, I’d add fear of death, fear of the unknown, lack of meaning (even though you dismissed it in my post on the subject ?).

If atheism is to become more popular it must find secular ways to address the emotional aspects individuals get from religion. Not all people think rationally or favor reason over emotions. People also have a lot of fears and strong instincts. We think that showing religious people their beliefs don’t make sense will make them refuse religion. That’s far from being true. Most people don’t believe absurd things with their rational mind obviously. it’s their emotional/spiritual/tribal sphere that makes them hold to their beliefs. Most of the time only speaking to those emotions is it possible to get a shot.

4

I think you are correct when it comes to the majority, but there are those of us who are quite comfortable not belonging to anything. I have a feeling, and it is just a feeling, that the percentage of us who have no need to belong may be growing. We shall see.

There's a nasty rumor goin' 'round that you belong to some internet community that has a religion-related theme... 😉

@skado -- LOL ... nice one.

2

I can see why you think that if you have come from the comfort of being part of a community, such as a Church congregation. I never ever had that and feel quite at home being “different “ from others. Here where I live it would be easy to feel like an outsider if you left your religion I think. I, on the other hand have always been accepted by people of different faiths and denominations as being a bit of an anomaly, but never with hostility , more like curiosity. Never ever having had a faith I obviously am in a completely different category from most of you.

6
I love everything about this post. I say this all the time! To your first point, I think confronting someone on their illogical beliefs only makes them cling more tightly to those beliefs and makes them less trusting of atheists in the future. Arguing with people will never get you anywhere. Accepting people, inspiring people to be better and earning their respect is the only thing I've ever seen that changes minds. 
To your second point, we absolutely lack that sense of community and also the ability to get together once a week and discuss ideas, particualrly pertaining to morality. Sometimes navigating life is difficult and having people to bounce ideas off of and having that support system makes a big difference. I would love to see atheist gatherings; complete with discussion, debate, guest speakers, etc. 

Well said. 🙂

3

Well said and right on. The reason that I joined UU was for community plus there is nothing to believe, no dogma about invisible beings, just a respect for all beings.

1

I don't have to believe in fairy tales to love my fellow man and I don't need to believe in bullshit to give them a hug or a handshake.

We are all we got in this Universe. I feel if more would really think about that and come together we could drop all the religious nonsense.

1

You are right. Humans are hard-wired for tribalism. Free thinkers are variants on the more independent end of the spectrum. Still, we have community. It is just loosely knit.

2

I agree that some on this site simply do not comprehend the phenomenon of the "True believer" -- ideological or religious. True believers have literally sold themselves to dogmatic belief and it forms the core of how they define themselves. Their need to escape the feeling of powerlessness, lack of knowledge, and of being alone drives them to tis action, to the extent that, if you take their ideological core away from them, they have nothing. To really understand this, one MUST read Erich Fromm's, ESCAPE FROM FREEDOM.

1

I completely agree. I absolutely don't care what others believe, as long as they don't try to convert me to their beliefs of govern based on it. I never, ever try to convert religious people to my beliefs. Of course there is an evangelical radical fringe who want to make America a theocracy, and they are enabled by Trump and his minions, so I will fight them with every fiber of my being.

2

I completely agree. I absolutely don't care what others believe, as long as they don't try to convert me to their beliefs of govern based on it. I never, ever try to convert religious people to my beliefs. Of course there is an evangelical radical fringe who want to make America a theocracy, and they are enabled by Trump and his minions, so I will fight them with every fiber of my being.

1

I also think it's that element of "belief". We make up beliefs in the absence of any actual data, but the nature of the belief convinces us that our belief is "truth." This it comes built in with a self-defense mechanism. The beliefs about God also deal with those nagging questions that humans can't seem to live without answer to: Why are we here? What happens when we die? What's our purpose in life.

Belief answer all of those, and when that belief is taken away, with it go all the comforts those beliefs brought with them. I think beliefs are necessary since we've been doing it throughout our existence. They help us make sense out of the myriad of information bombarding us constantly, but we haven't figure out how to use them judiciously, and therefore we become their slaves rather than using them to help bridge gaps in our understanding until we have enough information to know otherwise.

If this was a "reasonable" debate, we wouldn't be having it. It's an emotional debate, and that's a whole other problem.

2

I absolutely agree. My father and I used to argue about a lot of things (religion not being one of them) and he would always say, 'you just don't understand' to which I would reply, 'No, I just think you're wrong.' Understanding doesn't have a lot to do with religious differences. What's going on is that organisms, human or otherwise animal, will stop doing things that don't provide reinforcement and will continue to do things that give them some sort of reward.

The fact that religious thought is so ubiquitous shows that people do got a lot out of it. Otherwise it would have disappeared. Also, when people make choices and then are challenged, their belief becomes stronger (it's called reactance). Since religion is so basic to some people's entire value system, and they chose that value system, disagreeing or arguing with them is only likely to deepen that belief.

1

Totally agree.

Dietl Level 7 Sep 13, 2018
0

Yes it would be nicer to live in a world where religious superstition is a thing of the past, as an atheist I do not have a need or desire to "spread the word" and convert people away from faith and religion. I very much believe that every person has the right to think or believe whatever bat shit crazy stuff they want, as long as they are not hurting others.
it is one of the things that I understand the least about the faithful, why they seem to feel it is necessary to impose their beliefs and laws on others.
if you think being gay is wrong and that all gay people are going to hell, why do you protest why are you angry, why do you care that random strangers are gay, they are going to hell and you are not, end of story, sell them a cake and move on.
off topic tho lol
at times I have considered starting or looking for some kind of community that would provide similar things to a church experience without the faith part. actually I think I was a part of one for a while when I was younger, the issue with these groups is that without the god element people find it difficult to make attending regularly a priority and things fall apart. the other big issue is community size, the group I was a part of as a youth in northern Ontario (literally a group of parents and kids who were non religious gathering on Sundays so the kids could together) things started falling apart as A)kids aged out and B)people moved away,
in the pre internet days it would have been nearly impossible to establish an international community of atheists and agnostics, now tho seem possible, could be a good place to start if you mission is to wake people up to reality, providing an alternative community to take part in that has all of the benefits of a religious community just without the religion, might make it easier for the faithful to let go of the faith

0

The UU is a good choice as they welcome us and I served on the board of directors for 3 years and even provided a sermon one Sunday on atheism.

2

You hit the nail on the head! The feeling of belonging is what keeps most people in religion. I have heard jws say that if they had evidence that they were wrong, they would still remain in the cult.

1

Yes, it is false thinking, but not "completely", as there are soem peopel otu there who simply never havethought of or considered alternatives to the beliefs they were raised with.

However, the vast majority of religious persons so prefer their fantasies over facts and realities.

Personally, I am more inclined to try to get school to once again teach "logical fallacies" as a part of their curriculum. If people to learn to spot flaw in arguments (religious or political), then they are less likely to cling so strongly to religious views. This would not be a "cure all", but it woudl be a step in the right direction.

0

i agree with your conclusion but not the reasoning for it. religion is certainly not the only way for people to achieve that feeling of belonging. however, there is no hope that by being militant we will ever get people to leave their superstitions behind. i think our real work is getting people to stop legislating them. without that, it doesn't even matter what people do or don't believe; believers and nonbelievers alike are more and more being compelled to tolerate living in a christian country (speaking of the usa, anyway). nothing is going to change internally as long as we tolerate that toxic environment.

g

Fear may have much to do with religion. I often hear of people refer to themselves as god fearing. This keeps people involved with their religion. There may also be a fear of rejection and being an outsider in a religious community.

Politicians take advantage of large groups by encouraging their beliefs in exchange for their support. It would be a monumental task to convince politicians to give up that kind of advantage.

@Betty absolutely. it's certainly disheartening.

g

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