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Guys ask why women are so pissed off. Even guys with wives and daughters. Jackson Katz, a prominent social researcher, illustrates why. He's done it with hundreds of audiences:

"I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other.
Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they've been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, 'I stay out of prison.' This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, 'Nothing. I don't think about it.'
Then I ask the women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine.
Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don't go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don't put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man's voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don't use parking garages. Don't get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don't use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don't wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don't take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don't make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.”

― Jackson Katz, The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help

(The first man to minor in women's studies at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, holds a master's degree from the Harvard Graduate School of Education, and a Ph.D. in cultural studies and education from UCLA.)

HippieChick58 9 Sep 28
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61 comments

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2

I've read, I think, the majority of posts here (62).
The ladies' posts are a majority of descriptions of traumatic experiences happening to themselves, a daughter, or a friend. So, is this a true sample of the day-to-day reality for most women? Or, is this a place that attracts victims. I'm asking this in a non-judgemental mindset. Please don't be offended.

I would say that a majority of women have had experiences, not just women in this forum. I can't say that I've had any experiences that stick out for me, very small minor ones, but it's a shame that I feel lucky to have not experienced it. I should feel lucky to not have had them... they should just not happen at all.

I truly believe every woman you know either has such an experience or has/had a close friend who had such an experience. They just don't talk to you about it. But on this site I think women feel safer to discuss it openly.

Sounds about right. Most every woman Ive got to know well enough for her to open up to me, on this site or elsewhere has a story or 3. Its disgustingly common, and severely underreported.

@Charity I share your pain. Hugs

The victims , are not the ones taking these precautions , The victims are the ones who did not take these precautions . These are those who , may have learned , at a high cost , what happens when you do not guard yourself . Not saying that all men are violent . But the ones who are , usually take on more than one victim , overall .

As others have stated, 1 in 3.
So yeah there are a lot of women who've had at least 1, the average was reported at 3. Add to this the recent statistics that over the last four generations over 63% have been abused in America and you'll see a seriously fucked up multi-generational trend.

[americanspcc.org]

Like global warming, this isn't just a "libs" whiny talking point that corporate media and the "toxic" conservative crowd can start claiming is hurting their "rights" and "free speech".

It is a epidemic.

16

It always surprises me, how many men have no clue. And how many women do these things without a second thought.

@Stepmomofdragons yes. One of my daughter s walks with headphones in.so she can ignore catcalls.

13

This is a huge reminder to me because I had forgotten that I do all these things on a daily basis. They are so ingrained into my being, that I just don't notice them any more. 😟

12

I've been giving this a lot of thought since my initial response yesterday.

I think the men who ask the question simply do not get it.
That's it. They just don't get it.
I also think most of them don't want to get it, either.

10

I re-read this, and most of the comments quite a few times, and had changed what my comment was going to be about 100 times.
So I've prepared myself for all the hate responses that I'll probably get.

First off, I by no means at all am trying to belittle any of the horrible ways a lot of women get treated by men.
It's down right inexcusable.

But one thing I have to say here is for one, it's not ALL men that treat others like this, there are many who would never treat a woman like that.
Second, I've known some men (including myself) that have been victomised by women. Yes, it does happen.
If you think that women are the only ones that get abused, raped, assaulted etc. Watch any prison doc. that will put an end to that kind of thinking right away.

Again, I really do understand (as much as I can) the horrible shit that some men do to not just women, but to anyone.
But I've also seen and lived some horrible shit some women have done to men as well.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that I don't like it when anyone categorises people in one group. There are many different kind of people, and just as many different kinds of behaviour.

I think it's a good idea to talk about how EVERYONE, should or should not be treated.
JMHO.

The only prison movie I've ever watched is Shawshank Redemption, and yes assault happened in that movie. I am not about to hate on you, I agree with what you're saying. Yes, men can be victimized by women, and men are usually reluctant to go to the authorities because of the scorn they will endure. And men do horrible things to other men, or anyone they perceive as being weaker than they are. As a people we really haven't evolved much.

@HippieChick58 Thank you, I wasn't sure if anyone would get what I was trying to say.
But yeah, I think it should be that every one, men and women alike should be treated with respect, and kindness.

@Gwendolyn2018 you had me up until "However".
It's not a competition. there are other ways of being victimised other than just physical.
I have a pile of stories, as well as other men I know about some horrible shit that women do to men, just as men do to women.
My basic point was then ALL people deserve to be treated kindly, and with respect.

@Gwendolyn2018 I love the double standard you use there.
You said that "If you have been abused and taken advantage of that many times, you are the common denominator and should examine the type of women with whom you consort".As if it is my fault that I was abused.
You do realize that it is the same thing as saying that women that are abused is their own fault.

And by the way, It wasn't just by women, I had an abusive father that put me in the hospital a few times.

And you still clearly missed my point once again that ALL people should be treated with kindness and respect. men and women alike.

10

Great post, thanks for that.

It's always surprising how some groups just can't see the pain of a separate group. I saw a youtube video recently of a guy who was a gamer and posted how he doesn't use a specific piece of software anymore because the company said they didn't need another white male youtuber as a representative. He called the company racist and the comments were a wave of "how dare they! BOYCOTT!!" Not one person stopped to think, damn so this is what minorities go through on a regular basis. It's not racism that people are concerned with, it's only racism against their race.

I see the same thing here, men will often huff and puff when there is a perceived sexist line against them, but won't consider at all to see what women go through regularly.

Thank you for your insights!!

"It's not racism that people are concerned with, it's only racism against their race". I like that statement and will use it when necessary.

9

For the benefit of the men reading this thread, I feel like I should add: I don't generally smile at men I don't know. It's not because I "hate" men in general, or even that I don't trust men in general--it's that I care so much about potentially catching the eye of the one person that maybe wants to hurt me that I don't have anything left to invest in caring about the hundreds of people whose feelings are maybe hurt because I didn't smile back at them.

Honestly, IDNGAF if you think I'm a stuck-up bitch. I care about staying alive, and unraped, unbeaten, unstalked, unharassed. It's worth it. Anyone who wants to guilt me over this is not someone I want to be around.

I think we all got the message in your original post. "Remain well clear of @stinkeye_a!"

9

A woman's senses is heightened every time she ventures out alone. They just are. I remember running early one morning and running past a group of men on the other side of the street. I remember to make eye contact (to let them know that I see them), but keep running. Of course, they just had to say something: "Hey, come here! I want to talk to you!" Or walking across the parking lot to work, a guy has to drive up (which puts me on alert) and catcall me (I told him to fuck off, which then he started to call me a bitch, blah, blah, before driving off). Or on another day leaving my car and walking to work, a guy in a minivan pulls up in front of me before I could get to the door and starts to jack off for a few moments before driving off. These are just some of many inappropriate situations that I have endured, and I haven't even mentioned the physical ones.

Us guys really do suck far too often.

@kmdskit3 I don't put all of you guys in the same basket. I know there are some truly good ones out there.

I never realized just how bad this problem was or how often this sort of stuff occurred until joining this website and the growth of the #metoo movement. Hopefully the growing consciousness of this problem will lead to changes in our society.

@BlackDove I do try to not behave so reprehensibly but that doesn't mean I'm immune. I think it's important for all guys to recognize that kind of stupidity is within us.

9

Women and girls are unsafe in America, and all over the world.

Since age 15, I have been grabbed, kissed, fondled, sexually assaulted, stalked by two different men, and catcalled. Two supervisors tried to rape me at work: Tacoma Family YMCA and an insurance agency. I dress modestly.

Both times I hiked alone, I was frightened by men.

"Hey pretty lady! Where are you sleeping tonight? We'll join you!" hunters called, leering. On horses with rifles, they were heading up for the high hunt.

This was a women's backpacking trip. One-by-one, my friends dropped out. I hiked in alone. One friend planned meet me in the morning. She never did.

I spent a terrified night awake in the tent, jumping at every snap in the woods. At dawn, I broke camp and fled. Carrying a 50-lb. pack, I RAN.

The result is PTSD. Walking, I constantly scan people around me. Never look at my phone while walking. Cross the street to avoid men. Lock my doors. Never live in a ground-floor apartment. Never walk or run after dark. I never go to bars. Every time I went to a bar- to watch my alma maters, Univ. of Michigan and Univ. of Washington, in the Rose Bowl - men grabbed me, and wouldn't leave me alone. I'm not safe.

Never park beside a van. At 113 lbs, I could easily be grabbed and thrown in, raped and killed. This happened to Carol, 16, my sister's best friend. Carol's naked, raped and beaten body was found in a ditch two weeks later.

At 19, my daughter was raped and severely beaten in her bed at college. She was asleep when he attacked her. The rapist was a college student who plans to be an attorney.

Four girls took the rapist to court. Claire was re-traumatized facing her rapist by testifying in other girl's trials.

It infuriated me that the rapist's attorney got the judge to not register the rapist as a sexual predator. Since then, a federal law requires all convicted rapists to be registered as sexual predators.

Nine years later, Claire still wakes up screaming. She still has panic attacks.

That is horrifying! I ache for you and your daughter.

@HippieChick58

Thank you.

9

We have guys in our midst who act like dominant male chimpanzees. We really have not evolved very far, have we?

THANK YOU for this!! I am hoping that someday, preferably in my lifetime, that the rest of the men of at least the US will evolve as much as you have.

@HippieChick58 Good luck and with the present leadership this is actually going backwards. Watch out for hairy chested men bearing big clubs.

@JackPedigo Yes, sadly you are correct. Which is why we need to impeach the orange POS POTUS, Despot Donnie before too much more damage is done.

That's an incorrect understanding of evolution, I think!

There's an interesting TED talk (I think; can't be arsed to look it up right now) that explodes the "alpha male" paradigm, using chimp or ape (can't remember) studies: they found that the most successful, respected male leaders were the ones who were conciliatory and empathetic--not the most aggressive, braggadocios ones. It's from the same guy who was involved in the wolf studies that gave use the term "alpha male", I think.

9

I think some men are getting their eyes opened a little.

I had a good male friend thank me for posting this in FB. He said he had no idea.

8

What a powerful post.

8

Doesn't really refer to being "pissed off". True, the above does highlight what women go through all the time. To make this analysis refer to being pissed off, it does show all the added baggage women have to lug around. These current supreme court hearings show how women have to take so much shit from men. Considering the suffragette movement, Rosa Parks, Anita Hill have had to go through would highlight in a better way why women are justifiabfy pissed off. While we're at it, call the Senate switch board before today, Friday Sept. 28th @ 202-224-3121 now. You will be directed to your Senator, tell her/him to NOT vote for Kavanaugh's nomination.

8

This article is spot on. And its truly sad that this is 2018 and a lot of guys still are so unaware - what the hell is it going to take?

7

It saddens me that this is even an issue. It's terrible that women have to be constantly on the defensive because of this very real, virtually constant, danger.

7

I have zero expectation that any of this is going to change.
None.
Sure, all this effort into trying to raise awareness is great.
I just don't really see it making that much of a difference.

I think ... I fervently hope your wrong...my belief is that the more we teach our children and each other, things can and will change...getting rid of Religions that teach men to dominate women is the biggest hurdle as I see it...that's where it starts...every God Damn time...unless they are just plain psychopaths...in which case we need better ways to screen for it in schools...problem there is a lot of people will scream "invasion of privacy"...society as a whole needs to evolve or it will destroy itself. Equality, empathy, science and social conscience...namaste

@phoenixone1 I'd like to be wrong. I really would, but I don't think I'm going to see it in my lifetime. Maybe someday. Maybe never. No telling.

I agree and actually think it is going to get worse instead of better. A large portion of those who are or potentially will be predators are getting the message that even if they get caught it isn't a big deal. Just talk about how it impacts your career, family, etc and suddenly the criminal is the victim and the women who are abused are sitting on the sideline being hit with sticks and called a liar.

@KKGator well at least I hope you can be happy...if not all the time...a good some of the time...Namaste

7

You have to watch this man's TED Talk. I post it at least once a year to my FB page. If I could figure out how to do it, I'd work with this man. He's putting amazing information about there on not just the toxicity of "Manhood" but how it's making men suffer, too.

6

A few days after i was assaulted when i was 12 by a family friend who lived with us, i had to go to an official police interview. When getting ready, my mother told me not to wear bright lipstick. "We don't want them [the police] thinking you were asking for it."

I quit wearing feminin or revealing clothes at that point.

6

We know what kind of scum Brett Kavanaugh and Donald Trump are, we know exactly what their kind are like and we shun them for the twisted and perverted weaklings that they are. Please don't make the mistake of lumping us in with the misogynists because we aren't, we're feminists just like you. Don't accept all women as feminists by default either, we know that isn't the case, many are more sexist against their sisters than Brett Kavanaugh ever could be and they do this consciously.

6

[agnostic.com] There still are,good decent Men,available in the dating World,some are scarred from bitter divorces,and also Widowers who have lost their partner in life. We are not all predators.......

@CoastRiderBill I know I am!

6

Not making light of this but rephrase the question. Draw the same line and ask. "What do you do on a daily basis to prevent being assaulted?" Just omit that one word and see the difference. Men are far more likely to be a victim of assault. Not sexual granted but it can and does kill you. When men say that a woman was dressed provocatively, it is not necessarily an accusation. Ask a guy if he would walk into a rival teams bar wearing his home teams shirt? The answer would be "I don't have a death wish". We have to learn from a very early age to deal with violent assault. Never mind puberty, we learn this in kindergarten. Staying in well lite areas, avoiding eye contact, puffing your chest out and straightening up to look more formidable are second nature to us.
It is good that men get to know how women have to go though life but it might be beneficial for women to know how we go through life too?

@orange_girl For the most part true. Although new research suggests that as much as 40% of domestic violence may be women against men. Surprising I grant you but men are far less likely to report this.
As to plain old "assault" women will suffer at the hands of the same sex just as men do.

@orange_girl Look I am not trying to lessen what women go through but statements like "I would rather have a physical assault than being raped any day." Do no one any good. !st there is no point saying my dogs bigger than yours. Especially when its untrue. Victims of rape are so often threatened with violence unless they comply so... 2nd to what degree? I know that given the choice (and its not something I would wish to choose) would I rather have my balls felt be either sex against my will or have them crushed?
Is rape a fate worse than death?
No one should have to be subjected to either.

@MissKathleen I am not trying to marginalize the problem. Young men between 18 & 25 are far more likely to be a victim of assault than any other group. An understanding of what both sexes have to encounter has got to be beneficial for either sex.

@PalacinkyPDX I resent and refudiate your accusation. My comment was not meant to be all about me. It was an honest attempt to bring an understanding of what both sexes go through. If the questioner had omitted the word sexual first and THEN asked the audience the sexual assault question. Then many there might have picked up some insight and or tips to avoid these things. Many of the prophylactic measures stated by the original post are also things that men do too.

@Stacey48 Point taken but do you concede my point that men are far more likely to be a victim of common assault?

@TheMiddleWay, @orange_girl, @Stepmomofdragons, @Stacey48, @MissKathleen I include here a link and extract from the national crime statistics.
"Sex
Men were more likely to be victims of CSEW violent crime than women (2.1% of males compared with 1.3% of females1, Figure 9). This was true for all types of violence, with the exception of acquaintance violence which showed no significant difference and domestic violence which showed the reverse trend (0.4% of females were victims compared to 0.2% of males). The year ending March 2017 CSEW showed that:"

stranger violence showed the largest difference in victimisation between men and women (1.3% compared with 0.4%)
around twice as many men (1.2%) as women (0.6%) experienced violence without injury"
[ons.gov.uk]

@MissKathleen Okay if you get murdered then it ends there but what if you survive? My gay friend had his jaw smashed by thugs 5 years ago. He hung himself last year.

@orange_girl If you feel that my comment was irrelevant then just ignore it. My point was that the post gave out the impression that women are the only victims of assault and that men do not have to take measures to prevent being attacked. This is misleading. I stated right at the start of my comment that I was in no way trying to undermine or make light of the problem. Merely that men are (as my statistical reference showed) 3 times more likely to be a victim of stranger assault. Do you think that is a privilege?
There are many other threads here that address what you call the issue at hand. All I tried to point out was that we are all in this together sister.
All of my life I have endeavored to treat women with respect. It would be nice if that was reciprocated.

@MissKathleen Brian was a victim of hate crime.
I have never been raped nore have I been left for dead in a pool of my own blood. I would not be crass or patronizing enough to say that one was worse than the other

@MissKathleen I do wish to argue any further. The law does not view rape as a capital offence. I outside of the old testament I do not know any laws that do. Therefore society does not. If you disagree with this then thats your prerogative.

@jorj I am not sure that this is the post to discuss this but to a degree I take your point. Love him or loath him (I am of the latter). One thing Trump has done has stopped to trivializing of sexual politics. By being the lefts worst nightmare, small stuff are no longer being sweated. I recall a a news item a few years back when scientists landed a probe on a comet.All the media could talk about was the inappropriate shirt the guy wore for the press conference. (It had scantily clad ladies on it). Like scientists are noted for their dress sense. The guy helped put a probe on a comet ffs.

6

My son in law was taught by his parents to cross the street at night if he is coming up behind a woman so that he doesn't freak her out. I was discussing this with a man friend and he thought that it was my son in law letting his actions be controlled by the unwarranted fear of some woman. Would that sound like a man friend who is insensitive to the problems that women face on a daily basis? I fear so.

It does not matter if the fear is unwarranted or not, why would you want to cause any sort of fear if it is avoidable?

@Fernapple I think that it is a matter of not letting be controlled by irrational fears of others.

I worked in campus security when I was in college a billion years ago and I was taught to either slow down or quicken your pace to pass a woman on the street to make it clear you're not there to harm her. A newer way of handling it is faking a cell phone call loudly enough for her to hear you say that you're on your way to the club/restaurant or wherever to meet friends. The point is not to appear as if you're lurking.

@Olnoseven That's cool that you learned that even a billion years ago. I think that my man friend is unaware. Perhaps he's just sick of scaring everyone as he is a big black man and a lot of the reasons that he scares people is that they are racist.

5

This makes me smad (sad and mad.)

5

This guy doesn't ask that question. And there are also lots of other men who don't either. Better to say SOME guys ask why women are so pissed off. That would be a lot more accurate. 🙂

5

My first husband was abusive and I was traumatized to the point of finding it difficult to function in life. I was pissed too. But no matter what I did when I was pissed, I failed to change my situation. It's only been as I've gained control over my anger and learned to respectfully set boundaries that things have significantly changed in my life.

I think it's good for men to understand that many of their gender pose a real threat to women. All men should be asking themselves if their behavior may be contributing to the problem. Many of my ex-husband's actions in our marriage are considered rape but neither he nor I understood that. You men could be doing harm without being aware of it.

On the other hand, women need to learn to allow men to learn their lessons themselves and not try to shove them down their throats. Nothing is more effective at prompting self reflection in others than persistent and respectful boundary setting. But in order to do that, you have to respect yourself and learn to put aside your anger. As women learn to set boundaries against men in respectful ways, they will see success in their efforts to be treated fairly.

A rapist is not going to respect boundaries. Rape is about domination and power. Some men feel entitled to take what they want, they do not see women as autonomous beings. If boundary setting worked for you in your marriage, good. That is separate from what this article is about which is violence/rape aimed at women because we are women.

5

That is very true. Men without having things pointed out have for very long been trained by both parents how to live and react in society (this goes for most of the world). I remember studying linguistics and seeing the evidence of sexist language in the English language alone to whit showing there are more derogatory terms to describe females than males.
These thoughts and actions are one of the reasons that I, in high school, predicted a black male President of the United States before a woman. Note black men got the vote (at least legally) in 1868 while women here did not until 1920. I grew up in a rural, very religious and Christian oriented farming area. Many there haven't changed much over the years. I got thrown out of class, even before school stared one day for insulting Billy Graham by insinuating he was a drunk who sold an Elixer named Christ. Such fun times to have been liberal minded. Mostly I got thrown out for arguing with the teacher, whose father was an evangelical minister (who also happened to run a notoriously poorly operated old folks home, now called senior centers), over how I didn't believe I had to "watch it" because I didn't believe her god was going to get me.

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