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Please give us your feelings about the following, which I gave as a reply in another post.

I agree that it would be rude to ignore or deny someone's opinion but I have read somewhere that "Opinions are not allowed". Radical I know, but I think is an attempt to get at facts. [as I assume you would wish]. In addition it could be a good idea to state how your adversary could check those facts or find better ones UP FRONT . Are these a good phrases?
"Check the facts up front?" or
"Opinions differ, facts scientifically found don't"
In that last one 'scientifically found' assumes that large numbers of peers regularly check each others facts.

I also assume that you know that in science when new evidence is found facts quite rightly change and that often opinions change for no good reason

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Mcflewster 8 Nov 9
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12 comments

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"Check the facts up front?" or
"Opinions differ, facts scientifically found don't"

Please improve both for me

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There is difference between out of ass opinion and informed opinion.
Science can change its facts when new evidence arise, but see the new reality must be coherent with the old.
So the new fact must contain the old facts.
Newtonian physics is a special case (low energy, speed, mass, acceleratioms) of Einstein physics.

1

It is an equivocation, deliberately confusing opinion used as a simile for belief and opinion used as a simile for preference.

for example

It is my opinion that apples are the best tasting fruit

I disagree because it is my opinion apples were the fruit of the tree of knowledge therefore eating them is blasphemy.

That does not alter my opinion on their taste being good

You can only know their taste if you are blasphemous, so your opinion is dangerous and proof of guilt

Of course apple is a Latin term for fruit and in no way did the bibley ever actually say what the fruit was, if in a literal sense; which of course is all bollocks as are all man made texts on religion and philosophic thought. Round and round we go and all I need to add to this are some twisted statistics and viola a scientific report.
I like the above point that science can change when new evidence is presented.

I am quite sure of what an opinion is and I had absolutely no intent of doing anything but discussing a proposal. I had no intention to confuse although people do confuse opinion with facts.
Please tell us what tree of knowledge is in the real world. 'blasphemous' is a word thought up to MAKE people feel guilty and not to prove anything.

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I really depends on the topic. There is no arguing about mathematical or logical things. "2+2=4" is true. If someone has the opinion that it is false that someone is plain wrong. The truth of this claim relies on the definitions of the symbols (or words) involved.
Then there's empirical claims. Things that rely on what sentient being can observe. You can disagree on what the facts are if you for instance have different information. But you shouldn't just ignore the facts the other side is talking about but either try to "disprove" it or show how it might not be relevant.
Another category of claims are those whose truth does not rely on the definition of words or on empirical fact like "Blue is a beautiful color" or "murder is morally wrong". The truth of those claims is based on the opinion of someone regarding this issue. You would need "emotional" arguments to convince someone of those claims.

Just as a little correction: Facts don't change. The interpretation of those facts changes.

Dietl Level 7 Nov 9, 2018
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I’ve no idea how to answer because I can’t quite understand the question. I’m a bit dim.

I'm not dim and I didn't understand it. 🙂

@BlueWave Well, between you and me(and everyone else), I was trying to make the poster feel better.

You are not dim. People constantly confuse opinion with facts.

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I go with my gut feelings and they are usually right.

Roley Level 5 Nov 9, 2018
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Whew ! I read all the responses. I discuss things and if it resonates with me ,I will look into it more. If it doesn’t; I keep it moving. Harmony for me is: accepting that all of our perspectives are different, and accepting that I don’t need to prove things to anyone, or try to break down anyones views. I will of course engage one on their views , and see where it goes.

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I can't tell what you mean by what you wrote. I think that very few people regularly check each others facts. I think that very few people know how to check facts. Often people cite articles that don't even support their position, if they cite anything at all.

Sure, Donald doesn't

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There is no such thing as 100% objective truth or facts. There are only probabilities. Many of those approach 100% at least for practical purposes, so that doesn't mean we need 100% certainty to accomplish anything.

Ironically religion's main raison d'etre is to provide (fake) certitude to those who seek it (by asserting things as fact without substantiating them as fact), and science is the epistemological approach that accepts uncertainty and constantly weighs available data and understanding, changing its views on how likely things are to be true, all the time. That doesn't prevent it from having explanatory frameworks that are considered settled and proven, but even those things are refined for edge cases and new circumstances and applications.

Human thought, properly disciplined and organized and committed to intellectual integrity, strives to have an increasingly accurate model of reality, but epistemological humility requires that we acknowledge the inherent limitations and imperfections in our thought processes.

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What is a scientific fact?
What we know in science changes because we question and study it. You don't hear scientists referring to their findings as facts.

MsAl Level 8 Nov 9, 2018

@TheMiddleWay Can I have an example? It's true there are facts in science but many non scientists get the media version of things then claim things are facts when they are really just correlations, theories or opinions. What kind of a scientist are you?

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Some things are not fact based. What is right and wrong? What is the better choice based on fact?
That opinion gives me the impression that you don't like to hear versions of the truth that you don't agree with. I don't. It pisses me off sometimes. I'm not always right though.

Who gets to decide what the facts are?

MsAl Level 8 Nov 9, 2018

You get quickly to the heart of the matter . No I do like to hear versions of the truth that I don't agree with. Without a constantly changing stimulus I feel that I may have missed the right answer -and that is what this site is about. Being P.O. is 'Par for the course'. A consensus is good at deciding facts but is not foolproof as the dissenter may be the right one. Then only time will tell after a lot of rethinking.

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can you be specific? opinions are not allowed WHERE? in what context? of course opinions are allowed -- when they're expressed as opinions and not presented as, or mistaken for, facts.

sorry, those phrases don't mean anything to me. the first one could be improved and the second one isn't even true, since scientific results may vary (with variables lol). so... nope, won't be using those. i'll be adapting my responses to whatever it is i am responding to!

g

Better to ditch opinions and relate them with agreed facts. This is a proposal not an established fact. Confusing isn't it?

@TheMiddleWay you will never FIND facts if you don't have opinions. "wow, this looks as if it was caused by that.' "ya think?" "well maybe. let's TEST that."

g

@TheMiddleWay I am not talking about ditching opinions but sometimes they can be time wasting if they have no possible connection to facts.

See first line of initial post
"I agree that it would be rude to ignore or deny someone's opinion".

@Mcflewster "opinions are not allowed" in the same line IS ditching opinions. also i don't know with whom you agree that it would be rude to ignore or deny someone's opinions; some opinions are ridiculous and should be ignored or denied. you cannot deny that the opinion IS the opinion of the speaker (example: "i think dogs are really martians in disguise and they're all out to kill us" is a ridiculous opinion and should be ignored or denied, but you can't deny that the speaker, if taken seriously, HAS that opinion). opinions based on facts are more valuable than opinions based on nothing, or based on lies. in addition, opinions based on nothing or based on lies will not be as likely to lead to facts (through exploration, experimentation, investigation) as opinions based on facts.

g

@genessa No one is denying anything . I just wanted a discussion of a proposal which has not emerged from me.It is in its simplest terms an invitation to check your facts and know why you are confident in the facts.

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