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Guns
I would like to hear thoughts from others in this group on their feelings about guns and gun control.
I personally think that we need to revolutionize our way of thinking. We still seem to have this old west mentality that guns empower and equalize us. I still hear people state the fallacy that we need our guns to protect us from an oppressive government.
We are killing ourselves in numbers that we would not tolerate if those deaths were caused by any other product on the market. Look how quickly Romaine lettuce was removed from shelves after just four deaths.
Do atheists, with no strong belief in an afterlife have different opinions on gun ownership than the general population? I would hope that we as a group find life more precious and not something to be squandered with a policy of more guns as the solution to gun violence

JohnHenderson2 4 Dec 4
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4

I live in Missouri, ground zero for gun nuts. I own a single pistol, a .380. I have to pick up rent sometimes and also carry bullion to and from the bank. Very rare do I even carry it. The guys I work with occasionally run out into the woods and mince about pretending to be Seal Team 6 or Rambo or whatever. Often enough they spend thousands on ammo and new weapons just to fire away aimlessly and brag about that one long range group they managed. Meanwhile none of them have decent insurance for their families and half are on food stamps, I ask about college savings for their children and get blank stares.

Decades ago I worked amid those type in the rural hills of Oregon (not all OR is ‘blue’ ). Every payday several of them would buy another gun, and most weekends there’d be a beer party so as to attract enough of them to haul an even larger gun safe into someone’s basement.. It appeared to be a sickness. And no doubt, their families suffered 😟

@Varn drove through those hill to get to Lincoln City. Definitely"Deliverance-ish" Heard banjos halfway through.

4

I am a gun owner and was rated "expert" with the M-1 rifle in the Army. Nevertheless, I believe that all firearms , the primary purpose of which is to kill human beings, should be banned to the civilian population. That includes all automatic weapons of any kind, assault rifles. and all pistols. "Open carry" and "concealed carry" should be prohibited except for police officers and persons whose occupation is such that they are more likely to be robbed.

Same here...I am not looking to take away anyone's guns...just to make it reasonable and safer for all...

@Morganfreeman Australia made it work. I think that we are at least as smart as the Australians.

4

I love to shoot, but I think there are types of guns that private citizens neither need nor should find accessible to them. Unless the zombie apocalypse ever becomes a reality, if you find yourself in a situation where you're wishing you had a safe filled with AR-15s, having one won't help you.

Deb57 Level 8 Dec 4, 2018
3

Thre is gun control - for non whites - in this country. Look at the news and at statistics.
That said, there are plenty of things that could be done with no constitutional changes needed (note we do not adhere to Hamiltonian interpretations- look them up). We could ban semi automatics and restrict the number of shells in a clip. 40 years ago when I still hunted, the state only allowed me to have three bullets in my gun to deer hunt. We could do like Iceland, or to some extent Finland and Switzerland, and require mandatory training and testing. We could go back to the "old" days when gun owners were held responsible for what are now tragic accidents (nobody wants to fine or imprison a grieving parent). We could do better background checks and keep people with physical violence offenses or domestic violence from obtaining them. We could, although I believe it is already better done than reported, keep mentally ill people from obtaining guns(this has a lot of flaws, as it has been politicised as a scape goat since most gun deaths attributed to mentally ill people are suicides).

3

Excellent ideas being offered.

The refusal by the Republican party to support any meaningful gun control legislation is an outrage. Their solution of fighting gun violence by arming more people makes as much sense as fighting an out of control forest blaze by setting more trees on fire.

This lunacy is all the result of special interest money corrupting the system to the point where even meaningless half measures are resisted before being grudgingly put up for a vote, after which, even they're likely defeated. The Murican love affair with firearms, ALL firearms, is a sickness. Own a handgun for protection. One handgun. No one needs a military grade assault weapon to shoot a duck or even a rapist. A simple revolver will get the job done.

On a more hopeful note; a gun shop not far from me that proclaimed itself "Your AR-15 Superstore" recently went out of business. That really surprised me.

Gotta say, that’s some solid commentary!

3

This whole gun thing is crazy. The NRA love to make people fear each other so they can sell guns. Now you never know who might have a gun and want to use it because they can just say "I was in fear for my life" like the ignorant Ahole in this story [fox9.com]
What the story doesn't say is that the group of teens were Somalies, that is probably why he felt justified in harassing them in the first place.
I don't mind guns for hunting or if you need one for your job, but to just parade around like it's the wild west, that has to end. None of these people have the training required to carry a gun if the police apparently don't have enough training that they are shooting civilians because they get scared.

3

More control is needed regarding access to guns and ownership

2

Being from the UK I have no dog in this fight but all the NRA arguments for the right to own guns. Could be used for north Korea having nukes.

I don't like guns

@OwlInASack The American comedian Rich Hall put it best in "Americans are happy because they own guns. The American govt. keeps them happy because they own guns"

The tragedy is how such a small percentage of our populous continues to dominate this issue.. We’ve a political ‘party’ that’s cultivated gun nuts, god nuts, and racist a-holes into a solid voting block that has and continues to allow these extremist views to dominate our nation. Not only is it embarrassing ..it may be a fatal flaw ~

2

Who do ordinary Americans need protecting from? I hear comments on the subject stating for home protection or oppressive government, then America votes in an oppressive POTUS45, yet doesn't turn their guns on him?
The USA is a modern country with large wild areas. In most American cities you're unlikely to be attacked by bears or cougars unless they happen to be large hairy gay men or mature ladies!
You have pretty good police forces, the worlds most powerful military. So why should every citizen demand guns? With modern supermarkets, people no longer really need to hunt, just pop down the shops! I'll stop there. If you have guns, be responsible, be safe and have fun with them.

2

They should be much more difficult to own.

2

America needs a national gun discussion. I believe we all agree that we're tired of all the gun deaths. At the same time, we believe in the 2nd Amendment. Somewhere in there, there's room for a solution.

Perhaps start with a definition of the 2nd Amendment. What does it mean today? Unfettered gun ownership? People seize on what is written in the 2nd Amendment like "shall not be abridged" and "well regulated militia". Move punctuation around, or add some punctuation, and meanings change. That needs to be discussed.

Solutions would have to get past our Republican saturated supreme court, though.. It would take both Congress and a willing President to make stuff happen. Every damn massacre since I can remember felt like ‘the one’ that would finally drive our nation to a solution… But the tiny minority of gun fanatics, voting at every opportunity for the party that guarantees nothing gets done on this issue continues to win, as the vast majority tear up over one massacre after another...

2

The second amendment ws written before the Civil War, back when there ws no national standing armies, but national defense was dependent on state militias. After the Civil War, the U.S. has had a national standing military, so the need for citizens to keep guns for national defense has long since passed about 150 years ago and the second amendment is antiquated and needs to be updated and clarified to reflect the time we now live in. Also, when the second amendment was written fun technology was limited to single shot flint lock weapons, which took about 30 seconds to reload.. The idea that a single individual could wipe out several dozen people in just a couple of minutes was beyond the comprehension or imagination of those who wrote the second amendment.

@Veteran229 You are mistaken about the 1st amendment not covering TV or the internet. The exception woudl be what is broadcast over the public airwaves (commons owned by the people). However, i fyou pay for TV, liek with cable or satelite, Federal regulations regardign speech is not limited. Same concept is true for radio.

The internet is generally unregulated as far as free speech goes.

However, as my only original statements pertained to the second amendment... why are we talking about the first amendment now and freedom of speech via TV and the internet? It is totally off the original topic.

@Veteran229 The point o fmy stating tht it was written so long ago, and the conditions and times under which it was written, was simply to point out tht a lot of resoning for the second amendment no longer pertains to our current cultural or national sitation.

I should nto have to state this, but the founders of the country realized that situations would change, which is why they made it possible to make changes to the constitution. I thought the subtext was clear in what I was saying. The conditions which merited the writing of the seconde amendment have greatly changed and it needs to be updated to reflect the current times in which we are now living.

The first amendment has been greatly expanded through the courts (ro better refelct mocdern society and culture), but the actual wordign coudl be revised to include the expansions of the fights we have been given, so they aren't lost in the future, and could also be word3ed to reflect expced cultural changes of the future to solidify the freedoms we have.

We haven't had a constitutional convention in my lifetime. I think we shoudl have one aobut every 40-50 years to go over what is there and update as needed. After all, change is the only real constant.

@Veteran229 I think we can at least agree that judicial rulings can expand individual rights, but should not take rights (freedoms and liberties) away.

Having been raise to be conservative, I still feel most comfrotable when expansions of rights are at least implied our of and a logical progression out of what has already been established. I think major changes would require constitutional amendments. Changes to the constitution shoudl always be logn considered and debated.

Whiel I coudl understand the need for the original constitution to be written behind closed doors in secret, because they were creatign something very different, I'd prefer any constitutional conventions and their debates to be very public and transparent, because they would tnot be creating something new, but only making revisions to better reflect the modern world and conditions.

@Veteran229 I think gun control is aobut "how much is too much" as well as about how much is too little.

It would be much prefer it if sun owners were all responsible individuals and they regulated themselves, There are just too many stupid people for that to ever actually happen. So, to insure public safety the government has to step in and put limits on just how much harm can be cone by stupid and/or nefarious persons.

That you say that most fire arms are semi-automatic now, kind pf makes my point when contrasted with the single shot flint locks that were the best guns at the tiem of the writign of the second amendment. Conditions and situations change, we need to update the second amendment to keepup with changing situations, and also to prevent the takign of innocent lives.

2

We need much stricter gun laws. Thorough background checks, waiting periods, limits on magazine capacities, bans on military weapons, age restrictions, etc.

1

Just counted my guns, four rifles, two of which are antiques. Two pistols, one of which is an antique. All are .22 caliber. I am sorry for those who feel they need an external penis to be a man. I would not put up with the hassel to carry a gun. What comes to mind is the statement, "If you think education is exspensive try ignorance!

BillF Level 7 Dec 4, 2018
1

I live in the UK, I think the US is fucking nuts to have just about anyone running around with weapons of war. Revolutionary think not required, just common sense. Guns kill people, more gunskill more people.

I agree (except for the sweary 😉 )

@OwlInASack No just a history of getting the living daylights out of me if I said anything worse than 'damn'

I thought it an appropriate use, calling gun mania in the US just nuts, really don't do it justice.

1

"I still hear people state the fallacy that we need our guns to protect us from an oppressive government." How would your argument play to a survivor of 1930's Germany? There were many then who said the same thing when warned of what was coming..."...it cannot happen here!". Hitler did not seize power...he was elected. Trumps oligarchy of the wealthy did not seize power, they were elected. They violated the Constitution by not allowing Obama to appoint Supreme Court Judges...now the Court is loaded with Trump's minions. Republicans gerrymander and suppress opposition votes as well as other measures to solidify their strangle hold on the nation. You seem oblivious to the parallels of the 1930's. Not only can it happen here, you may be witnessing it happening. You strike me a very naive, or lacking in historical knowledge. Nothing remains the same, everything is in constant flux...our Democracy is being threatened any yet you seem oblivious. It cannot happen here, can it?

The personal attacks are not necessary or productive.
I am well aware of Hitler and Germany. Hitler did not need to seize guns because there were very few to seize. The Weimar republic had very strict gun laws. In fact Hitler made it easier to own guns for Germans with the exception of the groups he considered undesirable. The Jews made up about one percent of the population in Germany. Even if they had been armed to the teeth it wouldn't have made a difference. No sane person will awaken to 30 soldiers outside his house at four in the morning and risk his family in a gunfight he can't win.
Gerrymandering has been around and in practice by the party in power since the inception of this country. It is nothing new. I do agree that it is not healthy for a democracy and needs to end.
The flipping of 40 seats in the house by Democrats seems to fly in the face of your statement that Republicans have a stranglehold on power in this country. The Mueller investigation also demonstrates the rule of law is alive and well in this country. We will soon learn the effect of that investigation.
I have no doubt that Trump would love to be a dictator but despite his fascist dreams, it won't happen. You can put your guns away.

@JohnHenderson2 The possible Republican take-over of the government ala Nazi style is only one scenario of our (U.S.A.) possible futures. I could offer several more, but the point is that there is no way of knowing what possible and life threatening scenarios that can of will play out. But, what ever scenario one can imagine, it is likely that the U.S. will, at some point will cease to exist as has all the other previous democracies. Given that, one must ask one's self, would I and my family be better or worse off if I were armed when it happens? Little chance of survival if armed, or none at all?

@Elganned The details of Hitler's rise to power are immaterial. The point is that everything being in flux anything...unanticipated changes do happen. What happened in GENERAL in 1930's Germany is similar to what is happening in the U.S. currently...THAT IS THE POINT.

@Elganned
It would seem that I am not alone in my "...paranoid and delusional with an agenda to push."
[washingtonpost.com]
[vox.com]
[nybooks.com]
[thehill.com]

@Elganned Yes I agree...they must be "...paranoid and delusional with an agenda to push."

@Elganned "It's the gun-toting, "we gotta protect ourselves agin the gubmint" crowd who have the agenda, which is More Guns. And More Guns" But, it is the Left that seems to give dire warnings about the dangers and parallels to the rise Nazisum that I keep reading...the pro-gun people are mostly Republican and Trump supporters so your statement makes no sense...but go ahead with your rant anyway if it makes you feel better.

1

Statistically the less guns you have the less gun violence you have (crazy right?) but Americans are fucking petrified of everything, ESPECIALLY the right. They're fed bullshit that criminals can always get guns regardless of laws even though this isn't true in other countries, and that the only way they can not die is by having a gun on them that again, statistically is more dangerous to the owner and family of. But they're stupid, so there are cold dead fingers that you'd need to pry them from.

@Veteran229 ...people aren't intentionally mass murdering with cars, or butter knives. That’s beyond weak..

@Veteran229 Then we’d have to outlaw Dodge Chargers, maybe rental trucks, fertilizer & diesel.. Wherever it ends, it needs to begin with the oversold civilian assault weapons, the apparent weapon-of-choice.

@Veteran229 There's a reason that your arguments are stupid and weak. You can feel insulted but that won't change the fact that they are. You've based your outlook on fear, and not logic.

The right has a revenue model based off of you staying afraid and stupid so you'll buy more guns. The gun manufacturers pays the NRA and GOP directly who keeps you afraid of everything so you buy more guns and around and around it goes. You're afraid and they're rich, they win. Kids get shot at school but you think it's necessary because you're afraid and stupid. That's life in America.

@mattersauce Worse, whenever there’s another mass murder ..employing the darlings of their gun collection - assault weapon sales increase! Not for ‘defense purposes,’ but the same mentality we’re witnessing here, the fear someone’s going to outlaw their manhoo … I mean their assault weapons..

@Veteran229 ...it’s the best this moderate can come up with: “Assault weapon is a non-technical term referring to any broad category of firearms with certain features. Assault weapons include some semi-automatic rifle, some pistols and some shotguns.

… including: “Additionally defined as assault weapons were semi-automatic shotguns with a rotating cylinder, or with at least two of these features: a pistol grip, a folding or telescoping stock, a detachable magazine, or a fixed magazine that can hold more than five rounds.” Let’s let Congress define them ~

@Morganfreeman No, it’s not - and I’m sick of those attempting to frame this as a ‘Guns vs. No guns debate.’ If you don’t understand or appreciate moderation or negotiation - then leave it up to those who do ~

1

Most definitely, each and every life is precious! Each life is a singular and unique entity, and all are worth protecting to the utmost. Concerning guns... I push for full disarmament, of both citizens and enforcers. We should be utilizing non-lethal means, at all cost, in policing. It's senseless to give lethal means to enforcers, and watch as they kill an innocent bystander by mistaking them for the perp. We have militarized the police, so they act as military, with much less training, and citizenry become the enemy. As for gun ownership and mass shootings... As a mental health worker, I will posit that no murder or mass shooting is ever done by someone who could be considered "sane" at the time. Within every group of humans on earth, there is a percentage of group members with mental health concerns with symptoms that can include possible losses of reality (e.g. times of possible "psychosis" -seeing, hearing or believing something that isn't there or is way outside the realm of normal reality). So, one day, as fans of gun ownership bond over their love of shooting and their gun collection, they don't realize that 1-3% of the other gun fans in the conversation may have these mental concerns. It's great to think that we could take guns away from those who were appropriately diagnosed, but this often only occurs AFTER a possible grave incident. And if guns are in society, a person who wants a gun can get a gun if they desire, legally or illegally (be that because the person knows who owns one that they can steal, or their dad was holding their guns and decided it was okay to return the guns to the individual, or the individual just goes to the black market). I believe that the only way forward is to remove guns from being available at all. I willingly give up my right to own a gun, if it keeps society safer and protects life. Some say "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns". That's a neat idea that is short sighted. You can outlaw them now, and in 20 yrs, we'll have a gun-free society, or you can wait another 20 yrs, and in 40 yrs we'll have a gun-free society. Many very rational nations have outlawed guns, and do we really still have fears that the Gov't will exert control over us with weaponry? They have many ways that are working just fine already that have naught to do with actual bullets. The concept of Gun control being one of them.

That’s a well written (if lacking paragraphs..) argument I’m afraid will never go over here in the USA… Honestly, I’d not want to hand over my guns, my ultimate self defense from the barely sane to the certified insane.. But you’re right, other nations appear to be functioning quite well without them, Japan comes to mind with me.

0

I understand how gun possession is rooted in the days of the frontier and the need for protection. As times change so do social requirements and I suspect about 100 years ago it should have been addresses. Probably too far down the track now for any reform not be seen as an erosion of freedom. Difficult for any administration to address.

0

"We are killing ourselves in numbers that we would not tolerate if those deaths were caused by any other product on the market." Not so. Guns are not even in the top ten causes of death in the U.S. Do the research (Google "Causes of death in the U.S." ) There are 250,000 deaths caused by medical mistakes per annum... how much press does that get? There are twice the number of deaths due to overdoses than due to guns. Also note that most of the "gun deaths" are in fact, suicides. You have not done your research. "More guns as the solution to gun violence", while touted by some pro-gun people is naught but a straw man argument.

I wonder if your assertion of statistics might be skewed due to the "Dickey Ammendment" of 1997. The pro-gun lobby has insured that statistics are lacking. If interested in my assertion, check this link: [google.com]

@APaleBlueDot 250,000 deaths per year due to medical mistakes...John Hopkins University. A pro-gun entity?

@dahermit That statement embodies the term logical fallacy. Expect no more replies from me.

@APaleBlueDot Congratulations...you have missed the point completely.

0

We’ve participants who seem only to appear with regard to this subject, though piling on Hillary’s another favorite.. They employ an ‘all or nothing’ strategy, meaning, if you’re for ‘gun control,’ your solution must be confiscating & banning the manufacture of all guns…

I’m impressed by the vast majority of participants, though. Rarely is Atheism revealed in the debate, beyond a common (which unfortunately isn’t all that common) sense attitude that appears to align with most national polls on the subject. But, as it also appears nationally, not only do gun nuts love to carry a big piece (makes you wonder..) - they always sound eager to use it.

So, instead of allowing for a moderate debate, the kind that would likely tweek and finetune our gun laws on a National level, eliminating the worst offenders yet leaving what’s been customarily used for home & personal defence or legitimate hunting … such discussions are either shutdown or endlessly harassed by those, not wanting a safter nation, but the continued ‘right’ to hord military designed weapons with massive clips of armor-piercing ammo to match their assault-ready body armor.. Good luck 😕

Varn Level 8 Dec 4, 2018

I was not aware that the Second Amendment was a right to own sporting and hunting guns. Foolishly, I thought it actually meant access to military weapons. Perhaps if you point out where it says "legitimate hunting" or "sporting" guns and how that would relate to a "militia", I would not be confused.

@Elganned Bill’s got an honest way of getting it right.. Yah, Obama was going to fill all those prison camps with ..with.. disarmed Republican gun owners 😉 But the scariest thing I’ve heard regarding the ‘need’ to own assault weapons are guys actually fearing a Zombie Apocalypse! - no shit. ..I kinda thought, we’re all dead 😕

@Elganned ...reading down the stack here, I’m not the first to mention this paranoia about Zombies.. The scariest thing is likely the fact these guys are totally sober, yet scared shitless 😕 I’d say the NRA, gun manufacturers & Republican Party’s already cornered the market on their paranoia.. My question is, do they sleep with their AK’s..?

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