Sorry, I didn't mean that ALL atheists and agnostics are hostile to TNs. Just most are. I suppose it's because they have a need for "God" to refer to something that they can say 'doesn't exist'. They don't like "God" to be just a meaningless word like "Zop" -- but that's all it is. I can't help it.

You say "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are words that enforce the belief of "something". What "something"? Can you describe the concept of the "something". If you can, then please do so. But I don't think you can. "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are not words that enforce the belief in anything. They just trigger the emotions of theists into having the illusion that they are talking about something for "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" to refer to. But they can't image anything for those words to mean. They only think they are meaningful words because of the emotions they have been indoctrinated to have triggered by them.

Can you imagine "an invisible omnipresent infinite spirit that created the universe"? Or do you agree with me that that is just a bunch of words that refers to nothing at all? If you disagree with me, then please describe what you think the words "invisible omnipresent infinite spirit that created the universe" refer to.

@EdwinMcCravy aah, that about answers my question enough for me to give a reply I feel confident with. I would guess that one reason people are responding negatively is that when they ask a question of you in regards to your chosen topic in order to understand your issue better you disregard that question. When you do that it generally isn't going to get very good feedback in my experience.

What big words?

Why do I say they are hostile? I have posted here about my TN, and people on here have been hostile to me because I claim "God does not exist" is just as meaningless as "God exists", and therefore I see atheism and agnosticism as requiring as much faith as theism. Atheists and agnostics hate being accused of having any kind of faith.

You'rer right that they don't like my attitude, for my attitude is that they are wrong for thinking that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words for a nonexistent thing. Other theological noncognitivists (and there ARE others!) tell me the same thing about atheists and agnostics. Atheists like to tell the falsehood that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" refers to "a big man in the sky" or "a flying spaghetti monster". Surely they know this is not the case, but they say it anyway. They can't stand for "God" not to stand for a nonexistent thingamajig. But it doesn't refer to anything at all -- nothing existent and nothing nonexistent. But, as simple and obvious as it is, they can't stand to admit that truth to themselves.

@EdwinMcCravy Most atheists in my experience believe most god concepts to be incoherent and therefore meaningless, but that doesn't change the meanings in common use that we are obliged to engage with. Unless you want to cede the marketplace of ideas to others, I think you have to engage them where they are.

Ignosticism and igtheism are other words for what you're describing and I have no issue with what you're saying. But how is what you're saying actionable? How does it inform your interactions?

@mordant You are speaking contradictorily. Why do you think it's OK that atheists believe that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words when you know they are not? Yet you believe I am wrong for saying the truth that they are not meaningful? I don't get what you are saying.

You can't be an atheist or agnostic if you don't believe that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words that refer to a nonexistent god, like "unicorn" is a meaningful word that stands for a nonexistent animal. To be an atheist or agnostic, you must have faith that "God" and "Allah" are meaningful words like "unicorn" and "mermaid" and not think they are meaningless random rows of alphabet letters like "Ziggelfoop". I think you are not an atheist or agnostic, but a theological noncognitivist. like it or not. Once you lose faith that "God", and "Allah" are meaningful words for something that doesn't exist, there's no going back. You're stuck as a theological noncognitivist. Sorry!

Then what mental concept do you claim to have for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" that you believe Christians, Jews and Muslims use those words to represent? I'm suspicious that you are just like me in that respect and can't conjure up any mental concept for them either. Am I right?

@EdwinMcCravy The only mental concept I would have for a God, of any sort, would be the one that was described to me by another, using words.

Depends on what you men by "usage". Please describe what mental concept you claim to have for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah".

You seem to be claiming that you are able to have a mental concept for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah". However, nothing in what you wrote shows in the least that you do. I can only believe that you're just like me and can't give any description of any concept for them because you know of none either.

Triphid, unlike most of the the others on here, you do seem to realize that there is no mental concept for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" as there is for "Zeus", "Thor" and "Hercules". So you're right that I shouldn't be barking up YOUR particular tree. But look at all the others on here who have shown their blind faith that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words that refer to something that doesn't exist. If all atheists could realize the truth of TN, then that would force theist apologists to try to refute the claim "There is no mental concept for 'God', 'Yahweh' and 'Allah'" rather than "God does not exist". They wouldn't be able to start, for theological noncognitivism CANNOT be refuted. TN refutes theism, atheism and agnosticism.

@EdwinMcCravy Errr, what precisely is that you've drinking from the bottle you are carrying in your profile picture?

@Triphid When that picture was made I was drinking some truth serum from that bottle that made me realize that you yourself don't have any mental concept for "God", "Yahweh", or "Allah" either. So instead of admitting that you really don't, you changed the subject by asking what I was drinking in the picture. I am only able to believe that if you really had any mental concept for "God", you would have described it to me instead, for that would have proved me wrong instantly.

@EdwinMcCravy Oh ever so extremely funny, NOT.
A) 'Truth Serum' comes in injectable form ONLY, i.e. Sodium Pentothal, not in any form that can be made completely useless by the digestive juices of the stomach, ergo, someone, yourself perhaps imo, has been wanking you çhain' yet again, and,
b) any çoncept of God or Deity is one purely of a mental type, a DREAM of something Bigger, Stronger, more Powerful than a mere fallible human being therefore a THING onto which such a feeble, weak-minded, fallible human can pass the blame and responsibility, etc, for its own failings, misgivings, etc, etc.

@Triphid Why don't you describe the DREAM that you believe on faith that theists have when they do something you think they do that you call "dream of God, Yahweh, and Allah".

@EdwinMcCravy Do you realise that your post/comment to me makes about as much sense as pouring gasoline on house-fire to put the fire does?

Are you agnostic to money? Hahahaha

If there is a God the one man that can send you there is Mike Tyson... Lol

@EdwinMcCravy People worship different things. Money is not my god

Then why not describe the mental concept of "God", "Jehovah" and "Allah", "Ultimate Reality" or "Creator of the universe" that you claim to have to me? That'll shut me up. I suspect very strongly that the reason you and others on here do not describe any mental concept you and they claim to have for "God", "Jehovah" and "Allah" is because you and they don't really have any mental concept of them, either, and are just like me in that respect.

@F-IM-Forty It’s like saying you have no concept of what Mickey Mouse means.

@F-IM-Forty Do you actually think that by saying "I can comprehend those words and meanings" shows in the least that you actually do have a mental concept for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah"? If you think so, it doesn't. I'm pretty sure that if you could have any such concept you would have described such mental concept to me. Do you think I'm wrong for thinking that you would have if you could have?

@indirect76 I have a very vivid mental concept for Walt Disney's creation "Mickey Mouse", but not for "God", "Yahweh", and "Allah". I don't believe you have any mental concept for them either. If you did, you'd be able to describe it for me.

@EdwinMcCravy All powerful being that wrote the Ten Commandments, doesn’t like gay sex and shellfish, freed the Jews from slavery, had a kid named Christ. Need I go on?

@F-IM-Forty The row of 11 alphabet letters with one space between the first 6 and the last 5 "Mickey Mouse" means. "Mickey Mouse" is very meaningful because everybody can easily have a vivid mental imagine of the mouse character that Walt Disney created. Of course Mickey Mouse does not exist, but that's irrelevant. The letters "Mickey Mouse" is meaningful because we can imagine Mickey Mouse even though Mickey does not exist. On the other hand, "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" do not refer to anything that does exist -- nor anything that does NOT exist. If you think you have a mental image of anything called "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah", then why not describe the mental concept to me so I can have it too?

No, I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm hoping to teach atheists and agnostics what modern religion is all about. It's NOT a belief in a god, but the ILLUSION OF A BELIEF in a god. No god named "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" has been defined because "Ultimate Reality" and "Creator of the universe" are meaningless wordplay.

@Clare Look, Clare, either describe your mental concept of "God", "Jehovah", and "Allah" to me or be honest and admit that you're exactly like me in that you don't have one either.

@EdwinMcCravy because who died and made you the New Buddha? Your arrogance is astounding!

@AnneWimsey Arrogance? That means having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities. Are you saying that since I am unable to believe that "God", "Yahweh" of "Allah" are meaningful words referring to some kind of imaginable thingamajig, that either I must keep quiet about my inability to believe that, for if I reveal it then I'm having having an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities? Is the the way you see it?

@Clare You're wrong because it's not at all hard to have a concept of something that does not exist. Google "pictures of unicorn". Google "pictures of mermaids". Google "pictures of hoop snakes" You'll see very vivid pictures of things that do not exist. But it's impossible to have a mental concept of anything for the rows of alphabet letters "G-o-d", "Y-a-h-w-e-h", or "A-l-l-a-h" to refer to. If you think otherwise then kindly describe whatever mental concept you have for them to me, so I will be able to have those mental concepts myself.

@Clare I'm not talking about unreal things that do not exist. I'm talking about rows of letters like "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah". They do not refer to anything that does not exist. They also do not refer to anything that exists. Do you think that "Bloopety-doop" stands for something that doesn't exist, just because it doesn't refer to something that exists?

@Clare You know very well that you did not describe any mental concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims worship. Many atheists speak as if they believe theists worship a flying spaghetti monster. They do that because they can't describe any mental concept for anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims actually mean by "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" They just don't want to admit it..

@EdwinMcCravy Still doing your darnedest to 'flog' the same dead horse I see.
Answer this for me, WHY should any Atheist/s, being for the most part a person/persons who DENY the existence of ANY and ALL Supreme Deity/Deities want/have or need a concept of that which they deny in the first places?
I AM an Atheist, I have been an Atheist since childhood, I have studied Theology and Comparative Modern Religions as a DECLARED Atheist whilst studying and gained a Doctorate in the same and yet I neither have/want/need a 'concept' of something that I, for one, am 110% certain has never existed and never will exist.

@Clare, @Triphid You can diss me all you want, and say that you don't want to describe any mental image for them. But you know damn well that neither of you have any mental concept for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" whatever. You just have a psychological need for them to stand for something imaginable like the word "unicorn" so you can say "I don't believe in God". You can't stand to admit that saying "I don't believe in God" is just as meaningless as saying "I don't believe in Sluberfrig".

@Clare Whether you "give a flying f--k" or not does not change the fact that it's obvious that you yourself don't have any mental concept of anything that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" could refer to.

@EdwinMcCravy Why then is it so important to you that everyone MUST have a mental image of this God/Deity figure you are raving on about so ceaselessly?
Are you yet another those secret religious Trolls ('roaches as I like to call them btw) hellbent on dragging us Freethinkers, my own personal opinion here btw, down to your level?

But can you actually imagine (think of) anything that "Ultimate Reality" could stand for? I claim you can't! I claim that all you can do is make the sound "Ultimate Reality" with your mouth or write the alphabet letters "U-l-t-i-m-a-t-e R-e-a-l-i-t-y". If can't think of anything you could be talking about then you aren't talking about anything. That's why I say "God" is meaningless.

@EdwinMcCravy The concept of ultimate reality arises in our minds when we realize that the world of our perceptions is illusory and that reality itself is beyond our immediate ken. This is not just wu, but has been a basic concept in science since the days of Faraday and Maxwell.

Because of incorrect associations I would prefer not to label ultimate reality as “God”. The Hindus call it Brahman, which resonates with me.

You are right in that there’s not much we can say about ultimate reality. It is however, more than just an empty label.

@WilliamFleming Glad you agree that "God", "Jehovah" and "Allah" are empty rows of alphabet letters. They aren't labels at all. They are emotion-triggering sounds that produce emotions of awe, fear and reverence in those who have been properly indoctrinated in youth.

Hey, that's great, KKGator. You agree that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningless words, not meaningful words that refer to something nonexistent or something existent. There is a big difference between "Zxcvbnm" and "Unicorn". "Zxcvbnm" is meaningless but "Unicorn" is meaningful because it refers to an animal that we have a concept of but which does not exist. We can't say that about "God" or "Zxcvbnm". Atheists confuse a meaningless word with a meaningful word for something that does not exist.