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Generally, as perhaps too often said before, I'm a broad church skeptic, and have little interest in debates about the small differences between Atheist/ Agnostic/ Humanist etc.. Neither does it seem good, to be hard on believers, since for the most part they seem like victims, deserving sympathy more than anything else, excepting only the phony believers and Charlatons who are exploiting others.

The one group however who I, perhaps sadly, do still find I have a visceral loathing for, are the skeptical apologists, who try to justify religion as being useful to humanity, while claiming not to believe a word of it themselves. It maybe that I misread them, but the visceral loathing comes from what I, perhaps wrongly, perceive as their main motivations, especially snobbery. Since being superior persons, it is fine for them not to believe, but religion is necessary for the comfort and control of the great mass of, what they plainly regard as lesser humans. And the laziness of the idle assumption that it is not worth their while to even try enlightening those lesser humans when asked, because of their low worth perhaps. ( Not evangelizing, because they do not like compulsion or pressure on others is fine.) This especially irks me when I find that skepticism itself is used as a proof of superiority, since that taints what is to me the most important of views, and is I think a contradiction of it.

Rant over, forgive the emotional outburst, and if my reasoning is wrong forgive.

Fernapple 9 July 25
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18 comments

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1

It’s called brainwashing. A woman tried to persuade me to go to church which she says is good. When I replied that both Christianity and Islam have instructions in their old books to kill and/or subjugate non-believers and other evil sayings/instructions in their old texts she says she doesn’t know or care about it and she just goes to mass and thats it. Religious people are too lazy to study their religion and too lazy to analyze and change. In the end religious people are just that: lazy and uncaring to know the truth. Don’t waste your time with these.

2

I seem to recall Hitchen writing along the same lines. You're in good company.

1

Religion and religious institutions WERE important at some point in our history, the catholic church for example was important to keep Europe from breaking completely after the romans. The religion kept china as one, at least nominal because power was always changed from emperor to local nobility and back, but no formal independence could be done due to religion.
Religion is what in the early human civilizations made the gathering of more than some dozens of people possible.

Today we have nationalisms, ideologies, or even pan humanism to gather us in larger groups, religion is not necessary anymore (but in many cultures is still a corner stone of identity).

But is difficult to eliminate this point. Religions were so efficient in mixing with the identity of people that for many to abandon religion is to tear apart its own identity.

It is not about feeling superior, is about understanding that the situation, environment and society I am now is not even close to be the only one in the world.

I do not doubt the value of religion and that many people get a lot from it. I think that you have perhaps missed the point of my rant, I am sorry I do not always write as clearly as I should. Perhaps Callmedubio's comment and my reply to it below, will make it clearer.

@Fernapple Ah yes, use religion to harness power is constant in human history.
Few wars were fought because of religion (the ones that decide going into war wanted power, lands, resources etc) but the fuel that pumped people into the armies and boosted their morale was in fact religion.

1

a broad church skeptic? that's cool. whatever sex you wanna identify with is fine.

3

i think Napolean epitomized the ppl you loathe. he was no doubt an atheist and said: "we need religion to keep the poor from killing the rich".

Very true, and there is no doubt that to some degree, (crowned himself ) he was a skeptic, and without a doubt a serious snob who thought of himself as a higher form of human.

1

...and have little interest in debates about the small differences between Atheist/ Agnostic/ Humanist etc..

IMO the arguments between them are narcissistic bleating that boils down to "the way I don't believe is superior to the way you don't believe". Infantile crap spewed by navel gazing philosophers that has nothing of value.

1of5 Level 8 July 25, 2019
1

I don’t recall ever encountering such people. Are there public intellectuals you could name?

skado Level 9 July 25, 2019

No most of them are not public figures, it is more a populist atitude, there is one especially on this site, who I will not name because I am not going to be personal. I think that they are the exact mirror to the arrogant christian snob, who likewise think their religion is a proof of their greater worth. Interestingly it was your post which set me thinking, when you asked why it was that many people jumped on you for even the sightest praise of religion, even when it was not apologetic in any way. I wondered why people should have an emotional, knee-jerk reaction, to anything even sniffing of apologetics, especially as I find it may be so of myself. While yet I know quite the opposite, that I have no problem granting that religion has some good points, charity work, giving an alternate voice to those down trodden by governments and so on.

It then occured to me that having met several such people over the years, ( Including the first, a truly obnoxious and hypocritical tutor a college, the thought of whom still gives me shudders. ) that others may well have the same experiences, which could easily account for emotive responses. That would seem to be confirmed by the response to this post.

Sorry you asked for public figures as examples and I was writing late at night after a long day, so that since I do not like to name people on a public site I bottled it. But Callmedubio above gave me the perfect example, who no one will get upset by at this distance in time, though perhaps not an intellectual as such, that would not I think be possible. Napolean Bonaparte, who was to a degree a skeptic, praised skeptical thinking as enlightenment, and took the crown from the bishop to crown himself in a public rejection of the church, yet was without a doubt a serious snob, who thought of himself as a higher form of human and stated that the church was useful in controling lesser humans.

0

From what I recall that argument is even pooh-poohed by the Vatican. Russell summed it up by saying that the same thing can be used in support of Father Christmas

1

Sounds like you're describing Repubs.

2

Not sure I’m reading you right and I’m no apologist for religion in terms of the destruction it has caused for many. However, I can acknowledge that personally, it’s what allows some of my nearest and dearest to get out of bed in the morning. What’s a little delusion if it heads off mental illness at the pass and as long as they’re not shoving it down my throat? I can also acknowledge the (often hypocritical) role the Church has played in spreading literature, education, and the arts. I can value religion for inventing and then repeatedly rescuing my particular art form from the trash heap of history while also acknowledging that it’s a system of symbols that represent human abstractions and is often corrupt. Most things live in a pretty liminal space IMHO.

Yes, as I say I have no problem with true believers, or with those who say leave alone if they are happy. It is with those who consider there fellow humans as not worth saving, and it is true that there is no hard line between, leave alone if happy, and not worth talking to, but a lot of apologists will tell you that if it were not for the delutions of religion, a great number of people, who they think of a having inferior minds would run wild and destroy everything worthwhile.

0

Yes; it is Plato's "noble lie" in the Republic.

1

Such reaoning as you depict gives me problems, too.

2

U are right .

2

Like others said that's kind of a broad brush. I do agree.with the main point though about the snobbery. I think most groups have that element though. Athiests think that are smarter than everyone, humanists think they are nicer. I agree with them both in a small way but the self superiority can be a bit much.

MsAl Level 8 July 25, 2019
0

We can’t change the charlatans who victimize for money. We can help the masses see them and the myths as what they are. So while I have empathy for those that are being victimized I turn my empathy into action and education.

1

There are various kinds of religions and some of them really are very beneficial IMO. All religions must serve some purpose or other to their members or they wouldn’t exist.

Good point about the snobbery. I do not agree with the doctrines of traditional Christianity, and I do feel a bit superior in that regard. Maybe you are talking about me. I hope that visceral loathing of yours doesn’t turn to violence against me. 😟

That same snobbery element is, oh, so evident in politics as well as religion. We almost have to judge the opinions and thinking of others, but logically we have no basis to judge people’s characters, except to judge them as good.

No you tend to advocate a spiritualist/deist possition, that certainly is not religious apologetics, but ont the skeptical spectrum for me. Not to my taste but not horrible in any way.

@Fernapple Whew! I was very worried and scared. 🙂

@WilliamFleming I don't think you have need to be worried by me, whatever your views if you are geniune 9as I think you are), I can respect that, it is double values one thing for us and something for everybody else, that I find irk me.

2

Yeah good point but a broad brush of blame is also wrong while unfortunately in the minority some churches do good works don't discriminate against others especially gays and are tolerant caring people

bobwjr Level 10 July 25, 2019
8

Yeah I get it. Unfortunately it seems like a human condition for many people to be filled with hubris. I find it strangely unsettling that even on this site there are some who only feel as if their point of view is correct. If you think about the choice of words given to us to describe who we think we are - agnostics, atheists, humanists, skeptics, spiritualists, etc etc that is a huge gamut and it means there will be many points of view on this site and can we all at least be kind and open minded and tolerant- or at least as much as possible. Life is just too short for a lot of back biting.

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