No. The safest place to live is where people respect each other's diversity and strengths, are watchful for hatred and threats of violence, and work together to protect their communities. Yours is a false, extreme logic, and doesn't bear up under rational scrutiny.

@skye724 The murder rate of the police state city of Havana (4.7 to 100,00) is less than half of land of the free Houston (11.7 to 100,00). While you're up, come back with the murder rates of the world's largest police state (China) to the US.

Offer me some examples of murder rates from police states and tell me again how my logic "doesn't bear up under rational scrutiny."

@WonderWartHog99 The problem with these numbers is that they are collected by governing agencies and do not consider murder by the state, because it isn't really murder. For example, North Korea has a 0% unemployment rate.

Want to go there to get a job?

Police states may have significantly less citizen - citizen violence, but what of state - citizen violence? I would rather not end up in a gulag.

@Happy_Killbot . . . . and do not consider murder by the state, because it isn't really murder.

Murder, of course, is killing that isn't endorsed by the state. Otherwise war would be called mass murder.

Of course if you're living in a communist state, they'll assign you a job if you want it or not but that wasn't my point. The one thing I heard from tourists to totalitarianism states, unlike the local funky town, is how safe they feel after the sun go down.

@WonderWartHog99 so when a police officer beats someone to death it's okay then? Even if they were inocent?

My point is that murder rate is not entirely relevant to safety because it doesn't take account for other factors. It would be like trying to argue that a particular city was healthier based only on tracking he number of hospital visits. On the surface these things seem like they should correlate, but maybe the local culture is one of hypochondriacs who go to the doctor at the first cough, and so inflate the nubers.

If you visit North Korea you have to stay in a hotel on an island and you can not leave at night. They take you through the nicest parts of town, and only show specific venues.

@Happy_Killbot >so when a police officer beats someone to death it's okay then?

A police officer does not have the approval of the state to beat someone to death. Therefore, according to the state it's not okay. Police shooting a person is more likely not to go to court. Have you ever heard of my universal theory of life in the states? We is crazy we is.

>My point is that murder rate is not entirely relevant to safety because it doesn't take account for other factors.

I picked the murder rate because it's the most extreme act of violence people commit. Other factors like purse snatching, assault with or without battery can drag this on for decades. Let's keep this discussion to one easily understood single factor without a galaxy of different factors or we'll never completely finish reviewing the topic for two forevers.

They [North Korean "handlers"] take you through the nicest parts of town, and only show specific venues.

That has nothing to do with violence. Has a lot to do with state propaganda. NK doesn't want visitors to the state to have free and open discussion with random strangers. NK citizens are terrified not to repeat state propaganda to tourists. Everyone you'll meet in NK will be very polite. As for letting tourist go where they want, talk to who they want, not so much.

In any case it's NK least likely country to be murdered by civilians because the state has everyone under an oppressive thumb. You're more likely to get shot in South Chicago than Pyongyang.

@WonderWartHog99 In the US in 2019, 480 people have been shot and killed by police.

[killedbypolice.net]

in the US in 2019, 219 people have been shot and killed by civilians.

[gunviolencearchive.org]

You are more than twice as likely to be killed by a cop than by an active shooter. and almost none of those resulted in prosecution for the police officers who pulled the trigger, meaning that it is state approved!

That one factor isn't easily understood, and to think that it is suggests you know nothing about it.

[en.wikipedia.org]

I have an idea, lets just station a military guard on every street corner and shoot anyone with the audacity to leave their homes. "We did it guys! 0% murder rate"

Edit: I have reviewed some of the data and I think the reason you and so many others believe that more police = more safety is because of the relativity of the numbers, due to a statistical anomaly. Consider this: write down a string of 10 random 2 or 3 digit numbers, making sure that each number you chose is higher than the last. Now open a book to any page. write down the page number below your first randomly chosen number, then repeat for the second and so on. you will notice that as your numbers get higher, you will have page numbers less than the ones you choose. You might therefore conclude that picking a higher number means you will get a lower page number, but this is obviously wrong. That second link has an infographic that shows no correlation between violent crime rate and police killings, meaning that the above experiment is basically what is happening. There is no connection between the two whatsoever, and the data proves it.

@Happy_Killbot > In the US . . . .

It doesn't matter. I was talking about homicides in other countries vs the US. You're rambling on about guns and US police.

A person can kill another without a gun.

@WonderWartHog99 The US also has the highest incarceration rate of any industrialized nation.

My point is there is no correlation between the number of police and the number of homicides, because the cops don't stop people who are about to commit homicides, they arrest people who already have.

In fact, some people argue that our prison system is to blame for the increase in violent crime because it makes it impossible for people to return to a stable life after they were in jail.

@Happy_Killbot >The US also has the highest incarceration rate of any industrialized nation.

Still wandering off topic?

Police states have the lowest murder rates than the US. Maybe NK keeps their tourists locked up at night?

@WonderWartHog99 I think this is perfectly on topic, because it shows how there is no correlation between the number of cops and crime rates on account of the US is a police state.

@Happy_Killbot A police state is not about police. It's about a dictatorship kept in power by the military. No politics allowed unless it supports the dictator.

@WonderWartHog99 so... the US then?

@Happy_Killbot We're an imperialistic kleptocratic oligarchy, a phrase never heard in my neighborhood. Big esoteric words make their ears bleed as opposed to this group, who keep their knuckles off the ground.

The US runs on the same same system that got Zaphod Beeblebrox elected president of the universe: hide the people who own the show with the inept.

Now aren't you ashamed you asked?

@WonderWartHog99 I don't know why I would be ashamed about that, except that I am unaware of the other 4 people who know about it.

@Happy_Killbot I used to argue politics with my late drinking buddy, Clyde D. Wonderfog (real first name) in public. Guilty bystanders would over hear us and stop everything when they heard the words "imperialistic" and "oligarchy."

Clyde was a straight ticket Republican.

@Wangobango3 Have you ever cleared your browsing history?

[techdirt.com]

@linxminx This has been going on for a lot longer than Trump has been president. There is a reason I am the "happy killbot" and not " John Doe, lives in Idaho"

‘He who lives by the gun, dies by the gun!’ Seems little value is placed on a human life...but, to be able to kill...now there is a real value!

@Freedompath how many felonies do you think you commited in the past 48 hours? Odds are it isn't 0. Your freedom is a delicate illusion, why would you want anything that makes it easier to shatter that illusion?

@linxminx How about homemade tanks?

@linxminx, @kodimerlyn This article is a little misleading, but it is true that you can be prosecuted for clearing your browsing history, and this has already happened several times. The caveat here is that you have to already be under investigation. That mean that if you clear your browsing history then, officers show up to your house with a search warrant, you committed a felony, same as if you were observed destroying or tampering with evidence, because your system logs when you cleared your history. There is no requirement to collect the data in the first place, so using private tab or TOR circumnavigates this issue.

I agree with the observation that freedom is an illusion, but I think your reasons don't make any sense. If freedom is an illusion, why should that illusion stop based on how much money you have? It seems ridiculous to put a threshold of human value to determine someones inclusion in an abstract concept.

I don't believe in freedom because I don't believe in free will, and abstract freedom as a consequence. I have a physicalist perspective on the human mind and reality, so anyone who is rich or poor is that way based on environmental factors and is themselves a part of the environment. Our subjective experience suggests otherwise, but even that is a fragile illusion that can be broken relatively easily.

@Happy_Killbot News flash...you see people through the lens of their imperfections...you will justify anything against your ‘fellowman’...’look, they had it coming, they should not have done ‘so-in-so!’ What you see in others, is the way you see yourself...you will never measure up...defend as you must! Your fate is sealed!

@Freedompath I do not think that clearing your internet history is a crime, or owning a gun, or doing most of the other things that are technically illegal.

I'm arguing against individuals being able to use these things as the basis for making political arrests. Imagine I collected information on you or someone you knew, and then compiled that data into a list of misdemeanors, then sent an anonymous tip to the police. They storm your house, arrest you like an animal and after several months you get a "fair" trial before being thrown in jail.

This happens in the US every single day.

Your understanding of my stance is way off base.

@Happy_Killbot just as you stated...those kinds of arrest do happen and more often than warranty! But, you are dismissing the human psyche...in propelling us toward our best or worst selves! It is not all ‘what you see, is what you get,’ there are powerful conscious and unconscious motivations! And, they can become ‘collectively,’ among the citizens! Nothing happens in a vacuum!

Youtube suggested a 1 minute clip on the Ohio shooting this morning, and a significant number of the comments on it were, "This is a Deep State conspiracy", and, "This is suspicious in an election year," and, "This is a ploy to take our guns away," etc.

Half the country has gone insane.

@kodimerlyn out shooting rabbits, or innocent victims or each other.

@kodimerlyn, @greyeyed123 well, that would be a great strategy. Let’s make the country a unique tourist attraction. Theme Park - Massacred At Walmart.

Take part in a real life shooting incident and maybe get yourself killed!

Just after 9-11 there were many people from UK scared to fly to America. I’m not the scaredy type so I flew there in the October. Great! About 50 of us on the plane. I wouldn’t dream of going anywhere near the USA now. Even law enforcement is shooting the public let alone the nutters with their legal automatic weapons.

@Geoffrey51 I just looked at another youtube clip on the Ohio shooting, and ALL the popular comments were how this was coordinated, a Deep State thing, a government ploy, a staged election year hoax...and the media's fault for reporting on it because that is the only reason crazy people go on shooting sprees. (I note the reasons these people list are not only mostly to extremely wrong, but many are mutually exclusive of each other. It's like saying the earth isn't round because it's a flat square, it's a flat circle, the round earth is a hoax, and it's round because the media keeps reporting it that way.)

@greyeyed123 Uhhh! Perhaps if it were a plot they might blow something up and blame it on the Puerto Ricans or vegetarians or people that watch The Bold and The Beautiful.

What about one mentally ill person is inspired by another mentally ill person!

I despair!

@OwlInASack Totally agree. I am not going back anytime soon. As you say, it looks as though the police are out of control.

>Where’s all the good guys with their guns.

Current reports say armed police on the scene stopped the shooter within 30 seconds. If the shooter wasn't armed a with rapid fire gun, there would have been fewer deaths.

Kind of spoils the argument about the good guy with the gun taking out the bad guy with the gun.

@Moravian Exacrly what I was thinking.

@Moravian Even though the incident was stopped by good guys with guns? I don’t know, I guess I’m assuming things here. Did the guy just give up and stop on his own?

@indirect76 Obviously he did or he would have been shot by the police and you know well that I and others were referring to armed civilians and not law enforcement officers,

@Moravian I really don’t know. Did he just stop completely without polce presence or did they prompt him to stop?

Anyway, yes I was aware that you were speaking of armed civilians. My point only being that the underlying “good guy with gun” principle can extend to police. I’m not exactly in favor of arming civilians, but I do do see where folks are coming from with that though.

With you all the way on that one David!

Well said.

Counter intelligence is about protecting ones own secrets from being discovered...
It's defensive, not offensive. Perhaps you are using the wrong term?

On top of that, pining this all on one individual is beyond ridiculous. There are so many more actors at play here than just one. It may be convenient to put all the blame on one person, but I guarantee that these kinds of things would continue regardless of what happens to any of our leaders. This isn't to say he played no role, just that the beast is a system and has no "head".

@Happy_Killbot Obviously it refers to the regime around Putin and those who support him. Of course, it is true that a virus takes hold when the immune system is weak. In the US that refers to a corrupt political party system, an electoral system that is corrupt, antiquated and anarchic, and exploited by a judicial system all the way up to Supreme Court that allows and strengths electoral malpractice. In that sense, the attack by Putin and co has succeeded by exploiting the US's own weaknesses, its systemic vulnerabilities, that would not have happened had something like a democratic process been put in place and defended. That's the point of Comrade Putin's approach: he identifies and exploits weaknesses. In the US, it's the political weaknesses and the rise of an economic underclass. In the UK feeding the resentment against the EU, though the UK's problems are far deeper. In Europe it's migration and nationalism. Putin has single-mindedly set about to address what he sees as the "injustice' of the fall of the Soviet Union and the "gloating" by the West. He is doing well, sadly. It is the bigger picture that should be seen here.

@David1955 That's not how viruses work, they will take hold regardless of how strong your immune system is because in order to gain immunity to a specific virus you have to first have a significant infection to trigger an immune response. Bad analogy aside,

Have you considered the possibility that these things were inevitable due to wider effects that were outside the immediate control of any one individual? For example, Europe is the only continent to have never been completely conquered by a European power. The number of different interests across the EU is so vast that it doesn't really seem like such a federation should ever be stable.

What evidence do you have that brexit was caused by Putin and his cronies?

I would also like to challenge your assumption that democracies can not be manipulated. Just read some of the comments from this thread, or even better go read the manifesto supposedly written by the shooter for whom this thread was written. People are willing to totally give up there own freedoms for safety. Is it possible that these ideas are being propagated by special interest groups? After all, that is supposedly why Trump got elected.

It's the bigger picture that I'm trying to see, but unfortunately we all live in a pixel.

Let's all say it together, "Our thoughts and prayers are with them." There. Now we've done everything possible in response.

@Sgt_Spanky Don't be too descriptive, "sending thoughts and prayers"

It looks as if you have little concern for innocent people (maybe even you one day), who get shot up?

@kodimerlyn @Freedompath How two sentences can be so wildly misinterpreted and extrapolated is a bit beyond me, but I’m not going to lose any sleep over that either.

@indirect76 ...and you never bothered to clear up the misunderstanding, so in your mind you must want it both ways! How is that working for you?

A lone wolf gunman who has a huge online support network, and admires the butchery of the Christchurch murderer, then shares his own hate-filled invective and intention to kill people with his community. Lone wolf my ass, pal.

@skye724
I didn't mean he wasn't influenced by hate groups. And I wasn't really talking about just him. Looking at the recent history of these shootings seems to indicate no real organized group is behind them. At least that seems the consensus of most law enforcement. ........ pal.

@bigpawbullets I don't know which law enforcement professionals you are listening to, but the ones handling the El Paso case do not believe this man was a lone wolf. They are actively pursuing domestic terrorism under the federal statute. They are investigating, according to the Texas Attorney General's office, this person's support by online hate groups like 8chan and 4chan, and are under no illusions that this is a "lone wolf" crime. Nobody with a shred of logic to their name sees these as lone actors, including law enforcement. The mythology of the lone wolf is increasingly subject to skepticism, precisely because of the worldwide support network, support and sharing of instructions and methods to precisely target the other. Pal.

@skye724
I think we should agree to disagree on this. I was talking generalities. You're examining this El Paso shooters alleged background. .....Amigo.

'merca has always had a cancer. It was built on that cancer.

...just watch’um! Outside the slaughter location, people will say...not my town, don’t know those people, and ‘that’s too bad,’ will be said a lot! It is a collective problem in our society...and that is too much work to fix...bottom line! Before long, nobody will matter!

So long as the Rs have anything to say about it, it will be ignored forever.

It could happen anywhere in America. We are Not Safe Anywhere in America.

@GipsyOfNewSpain yes, it could, but less likely in some areas than others. Don't surrender to fear.

@Mofo1953 We can Not Surrender indeed!!!!

Or that he would be voting for Elizabeth Warren.

You sound exactly like the El Paso shooter in his manifesto... should we be worried?