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Isn’t there clear evidence that the supreme something that created the universe is an unjust twisted psycho? Most people who subscribe to a religion attribute certain qualities to the supreme being they worship. It is almost universally assumed that any God is all knowing, fair and just. Those of us who discount any notion that the biblical god exists, point to the imperfections, and unjustness as evidence that it is impossible that such a God exists. But what if the creator WAS a twisted unjust being, wouldn’t that explain what we see in the Bible and the phenomenon of human suffering all over this planet? Could that explain the kind of God that creates man and tells him if he fails he will be condemned to the fires of hell for eternity? As if being denied an eternity in heaven wasn’t enough punishment. (By the way the same God set man up for failure). Asking for a friend......

Dreamrider 6 Aug 9
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10

I know that this quote has been used at least a few times here, but I will use it again:

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. - Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion

9

The bible is moronic because it was written by ignorant Iron Age goat herders who thought sacrificing a calf would bring them luck and prayed to gods that they themselves made up. It's a reflection of its time.

Why anyone still takes it seriously today is bewildering.

5

It is just as likely as a loving god, and moreso if you’re judging by lack of evidence for a loving god. But the lack of evidence for either outweighs the likelihood of either.

This line of reasoning could be helpful to doubting Christians, as it approximately summarizes my journey from theism to atheism though. It was reinforced by the clear lack of evidence, but in personal terms the thing that gave me the courage to abandon what I thought was a personal relationship with god was the realization that god is either cruel, hates me in particular, or doesn’t exist. Occam’s razor and my rational mind’s victory over paranoia thankfully led me to the realization that it is most definitely the latter option. There’s no reason to feel like the universe is intentionally hostile. It’s a randomly cruel mystery of probability. Everything tends towards entropy and chaos is the law of this existence. You can consider chaos a god like Kali, or you can accept that life is tough and give it hell right back.

5

Of course gods are imperfect. They were created by man in his image

4

Were we created in his image? That's proof that he's highly flawed. If there was an inkling of truth to any creation theory it was explained in "The Wizard of Oz" Using belief and fear to control the masses. I've been aware since I was 12 when my parents couldn't answer my questions about the movie. We as humans don't live long enough to ponder the theory of existence. To me it's just a stop along the way in life. The only fact or evidence we have is belief.

Whoa. At age 12 you saw a parallel between the Wizard's charade ("pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" ) and the Christian one? And then quizzed your parents on it? That is awesome!

@uuberdude amusing fluff with music! and a dog! don't forget the dog!

g

@vertrauen When I was 11 the reverend of our church abandoned us and ran off with the money. After that my grandmother died and god couldn't save her so I began to question everything religious.

3

I used to be same as them. Until I was told to quit asking questions. Truth is MOST Christians have not read their Bible. They are surprised all the time when directed to passages that contradict what they've been taught.

3

Most probably not. Using Occam's razor, the simple answer is; the cosmos is exactly what is expected when there is no god.

3

"If there is a God he is a malign thug."

~ Mark Twain

...as cited by Kaplan. (1966, p338)

Kaplan, J, 1966, Mr. Clemens and Mark Twain: A Biography, Simon and Schuster, New York.

3

The reason that the christian god is a sexist, racist, homophobic bastard is that he was modeled after the primitive men who created him.

3

You are correct. If you look closely at Christian theology and mythology, the notion of a loving father disappears, revealing the image of the ultimate egomaniac who would sentence any and all human beings to an eternity of pain and horror for the simple reason that the person chose not to worship him. Similarly, the image of an omnipotent and omniscient god falls apart. Supposedly, he created Satan. How can ultimate good create ultimate evil -- and why? And, if he had created Satan by error, he goofed. I could go on with thousands of examples.

2

To answer you're question-

"Isn’t there clear evidence that the supreme something that created the universe is an unjust twisted psycho?"

The best answer is "I don't know. I'm agnostic"

To the best evidence I see - and see more of every day....gods are myths, stories made up in imaginations...

ag·nos·tic
/aɡˈnästik/

noun. a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
synonyms - sceptic, doubter, questioner, doubting Thomas, challenger, scoffer, cynic;

adjective: agnostic. relating to agnostics or agnosticism.
synonyms😕keptical, doubting, questioning, unsure, cynical, unbelieving, disbelieving, nonbelieving, faithless, irreligious;

2

you are preaching to the choir

2

If there is a God, and he/she is as all powerful as the bible, Koran, and torah say, and the apocalypse happens and I face God for the final judgement, my only question would be "Why? what are you trying to prove? that you are all powerful? And who are you trying to prove it to? Me? Or is there a pantheon of gods, each with a universe that they have created and are in competition to see who can rule over it better? If so, this is stupid!

Besides, isn't Santa Clause almost the same as God? "he's making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice... he see's you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows when you've been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake!..."

i know you didn't say torah specifies an apocalypse but i just want to clarify for anyone who didn't read that right, it doesn't. no devil, either, in torah, come to think of it. just a self-described "jealous" god (so yes, of whom, right?) i'm a jewish atheist so no santa claus in my life, but yep, lists are cool.

g

@Antidronefreeman The devil lived with a dog god though.

2

Justice and evil are human developed concepts. Is it just; is it evil that the rabbit is bound to get eaten by a coyote. It is neither. It is just the way of things.

MrDMC Level 7 Aug 10, 2019
2

You put too much effort into preaching to the converted or, perhaps, more accurately, the unconvertible. You don't have to stoop down to the believers' level.

Maybe I need reassurance from all you brilliant people! I’m bothered by the shear magnificence of the universe we live in. What caused it to exist? Possibly something we aren’t capable of understanding. I understand eliminating the Christian God as being the culprit but you have no basis or evidence that it wasn’t some kind of force or being.

@Dreamrider Just soak in the fabulous atmosphere of "the shear (sic) magnificence of the universe" … Then consider that this was not made for your enjoyment … It just happened that you have to ability to enjoy it.

What is the point of posting on this site? And you are doing some stooping looking down at believers.

@PontifexMarximus I think that she is looking a little farther out of the box than you.

@MrDMC perhaps...

2

Isn’t there clear evidence that the supreme something that created the universe is an unjust twisted psycho?

No.

  1. It's not a one person effort. Mankind's invention was by committee, evolving over time to satify several needs to explain thing they don't understand. Where we come from? Where we going? What is with that rainbow? Where does the sun go?

I know! Let's make up a story. We'll throw in some talking animals just for giggles.

  1. What can we say these dim bulbs get their butts in line?

God will get you! He's a freaking crazy guy/gal/head of a family of God. Better say a lot of nice things. God's crazy. How about some praise songs to calm God's butt down? Can't tell about that thing. Let me tell you another story.

  1. We'll need regular services so you won't forge. Throw in some administrative costs like a private jet for the head knocker.
2

No I don't think that it exists. But even if it did then the evidence does not really support the idea of evil, or that it is evil, the idea of evil is just a human made up illusion just as much as god and the devil. And in any case there is a third possible which seems to fit the evidence more closely, which is not good or evil, but just sublime majestic and cold indifference, which sees us and our feelings as not even important, much like nature really.

And it is also important not to take too simplistic a view of our sufferings. Pain in many ways is a gift from evolution/nature and is a good thing. If I put my hand on the hot stove it hurts, yes, but if it did not hurt, then I would possibly leave my hand there until it was badly damaged, which would not be good. So how is that pain bad for me ? And the same rule applies to even more complex pain. Perhaps I feel lonely, that hurts, yet how is it good for me not to engage with others like me and the community ? Pain and pleasure are the carrot and stick which nature uses to make us run. The idea of evil is a primitive idea, to try and explain them, from the days of the bronze age, when things like evolution and its meaning were not understood.

Sorry but have an issue with you’re saying pain is good for us! Have you not met anyone with chronic pain in their back, neck, etc? They suffer pain constantly. It’s doing nothing GOOD for them!

@Dreamrider The pain tells them something is wrong with their bodies and they ought to find something to fix it. Now pass me that lotus over to me.

@Dreamrider Yes but that is the misunderstanding that they made in the bronze age. Not all pain is good for us, of course, because the pain system can malfunction, just as any purely mechanical system can. That is the proof that it is a purely mechanical and falable system, and not one designed and managed by an intelegent being with an intention, for good or evil.

Cronic pain is like the state of the man who turned his car over and was trapped inside. When the car was upside down, the fuel in the tank slopped to the top of the tank, which in turn expossed the device which read the fuel depth. It greatly annoyed him therefore, that all the time he was trapped, the alarm which was suppossed to tell him his fuel was low kept going pip, pip, pip, for several hours. Under strange conditions, or when damaged, fuel alarms can be annoying, but that does not mean that fuel alarms are bad things.

@WonderWartHog99 Sounds like Pollyanna wants a free ride with n life. Perfectly sensible thing to say to a victim of Alzheimer’s or a paraplegic. I’m assuming you want the lotus leaf to chew upon.

@@in support of Fernapple’s response, certain functions of pain are bodily defence responses to prevent harm. I do take issue with the other responder who implies that all pain, mental or physical can be addressed in such a simplistic manner. I may however have misconstrued the point.

@Geoffrey51 > I’m assuming you want the lotus leaf to chew upon.

I'd like something a lot stronger, thanks. If a person can't fix the cause of the pain, they ought to find something that will dull the pain. BTW, if a person is suffering from Alzheimer's they're more likely to be depressed than in chronic pain. Same story for a paraplegic..

@WonderWartHog99 I don’t think you understand so I’ll leave it there. Glad you have are secure in your conviction.

@Geoffrey51 Oh fudge. I had such high hopes you'd either explain it or stay and fight.

I like your Pain and pleasure are the carrot and stick which nature uses to make us run. analogy.

1

Read this: The Owner of All Infernal Names by John Zande and the "sequel" The Problem of Good: [amazon.com]

velk Level 4 Aug 13, 2019
1

Don't worry about what the guy was like once you have left him. Look are the new world. You are free now.

1

Those things you mention don't prove that a god is fake, only that it is not as described on specific boxes (typically Abrahamic, though mostly through the Christian lense). All that people who bring p these arguments show is that "this specific god who is described as all loving and all knowing etc., but is unloving and unjust, just cannot logically exist as you describe it. It doesn't say anything for the millions of gods that are not described as all those omni qualities.
Others have already gone over the positive claim vs. negative claim, so I'll let that go.

1

What you are saying is a version of Thomas Aquinas' "first mover" "proof" of God. He had 5. There are many things that I cannot explain or prove, that doesn't mean I need to assign a deity to it.

1

The biblical "god" is a manifestation of the violent hunter-killer male dominant human mind, via the left brain, and nothing more."God" is not the problem. We MEN are.

1

I haven't read up on it much, but there is debate out there that Satan (and yes I know it's just a story) was actually defying God's bad commands and is actually the good one.

1

There are forces of evil and there are forces of good, initially I tried being good but the forces of good looking out for me were not strong enough and the force of evil was easily able to take over, so I stopped going to church and decided not to pray to that force of all-good anymore. I hope there is a force out there that is helping me and will continue to do so.

There isn't anything "out there" it is all between your ears. Not to say that isn't a lot. It just means that we are all stuck with what we've got. Crass as it sounds, life is all about luck. Play with it, there is only one. GROG

gravity is a force, of sorts, but there are no forces of evil, no forces of good. evil is a description, not a force, and likewise good. there are evil people just as there are tall people or thin people. there is no force of tall and no force of thin. i do not begrudge you your hope but i cannot see its being realistic at all. you're hoping for something i am pretty sure never did and never will exist.

g

1

well, no, there is no evidence that the creator was twisted, because there is no evidence that there was a creator at all. the fictional creators, of whom there are many, tend to be portrayed as twisted by our standards. it doesn't matter because they ARE fictional. many have made note of their unreasonableness. it's not exactly a new concept. the concept itself has been twisted to convince religionists that there are no true atheists, only people who believe in a god but are angry at him or hate him. that is ridiculous of course but railing against an unjust god when there is no more an unjust god in the universe than there is a just one does give these people ammunition.

g

Something started this magnificent universe we live in. Possibly something we aren’t capable of understanding. I understand eliminating the Christian God as being the culprit but you have no basis or evidence that it wasn’t some kind of force or being.

@Dreamrider No one has any basis or evidence for the negative position on any question. Where’s the evidence that there aren’t flying purple people eaters? The burden of proof is always on the positive claim that something exists. Until some is offered it’s a meaningless, random supposition.

The only beings and forces we have evidence of are our biological ancestors and the forces of nature, laws which still exist and operate consistently. If we want to blame something for our cruel fates on earth the best we can do is blame genetics, probability, and the music of the spheres. I prefer the Jackson 5 approach and blame it on the boogie myself. Nothing sentient and still active since the dawn of time has shown evidence of existence, aside from Betty White. If such a catalyst for anything makes itself evident my money’s on Aliens or simulation theory. That’s gotta be the closest thing to a god that’s still up for grabs.

@Dreamrider You are assuming that there has to be a beginning. Why?

@wordywalt We think/believe there has to be a beginning because that is the way humans think. We think circularly as with the seasons, so thinking of the universe as linear leaves us sitting around waiting for the end, which never comes, but if the universe is cyclical, it can just keep spinning around forever. GROG

@Dreamrider why do you insist something started it? that is an unsupportable statement and i do not buy it. i never had to eliminate the christian god because i have never been christian; you sound as if you assume that's the only god that ever mattered! there are gazillions of fictional gods; every one of them is just as fictional as the next, and the christian god is just one of them. well, three of them lol plus saints! anyway, back to what started it. what will happen after the end? can you imagine? betcha can't because there may be an end to the universe as we know it, but then there will be something after, and when you talk about well, what created the universe (as we know it), and conclude it was a god, then you have to ask who created god. and if you say, well, god just always was, then you have to ask, then why can't the universe, not necessarily as we know it, but some kind of universe, always have been? why is one okay and the other unthinkable? so: no gods, no beginning and no end, although things do change form.

g

@genessa why do you insist that something didn’t start the universe? There’s no conclusive evidence that supports either side. We simply don’t know.

@Dreamrider the same reason i insist that i am not a huge blue rabbit. there is no conclusive evidence that i am not. what you call blue might not be the same thing i call blue. what you call rabbit might not be the same thing you call rabbit. your argument doesn't stand. besides, i didn't argue that something didn't start the universe. i argued against the positive assertion that something did. did we skip the course in logic, then?

g

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