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Just heard a great quote from Dan Barker, one that I wish I had thought of myself. I'm paraphrasing...

"If the argument that the complexity of life and creation demands that there must be a creator, then who created God? Because if this world, this universe, animal and plant life is complex, how much more complex is the God who made it all? If God is so complex, then certainly he couldn’t have sprung from nothing, he must have had a creator as well, just as it is argued that this universe couldn’t have sprung from nothing."

josh_is_exciting 7 Sep 11
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14 comments

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1

The universe is a creator. Stars create atoms. Kinetic energy is everywhere. Something moves it has kinetic energy. There is a lot of kinetic energy that brought about each person's first zygote. It is a trail of kinetic energy. At some point our cognitive capabilities seemed to start for us, this cognitive capability is based on kinetic energy. A simple combination of 2 or more things makes a new thing. That is a defination of creation.

Looking back scientifically, we can only see theoretically but what we do see is kinetic energy and combining things plays a big role in the make up, or creation of things.

Word Level 8 Sep 13, 2019

@josh_is_exciting What is considered to have the smallest functional brain? If something so small can have enough brain power to live, eat, function, reproduce, what would restrict a cognitive capability to be housed within the entirety of something like the Earth kinetic energy atmosphere?

@josh_is_exciting Also, people are creators. People create more people by combining DNA to create an entirely new person. People as you say have "human mind, one that's conscious, self-aware, intelligent, etc. offers consequences for our thoughts and actions, . "

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I tried this on a religious friend recently. If the universe resulted from a singularity, an infinitely small.infinitely dense particle,god must have been outside of this particle so as the universe expanded he would still be outside so you can he affect happenings inside the universe.
If god was inside this particle then he must be spread very thinly throughout the universe and must permeate everything so he is inside our brains, so why do we have to pray to him.

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If you buy into the simulation theory then one could imagine that god is no more complex then a human. Only with a slightly better PC then we currently have.

Nardi Level 7 Sep 12, 2019

In this case would the term "God" be reserved for the original coders or the actual AI itself that ultimately projects the simulation?

@gNappyHead yes

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I stopped wasting time and energy on that complexity many years ago. 😉

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Not familiar with Dan Barker, but I guess he wrote a preface for a book entitled "The Founding Myth", why Christian Nationalism is un-American. And I am pretty sure our Founding Fathers have all collectively turned over in their graves at the idea of that one.

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Well sure you can continuously formulate questions that ask why and who at higher levels of complexity, but you haven't reached a greater level of understanding by doing so. You are and everything around you is. This reminds me of the idea in my reading yesterday; with the advancement of man's knowledge about the vastness of space it becomes more difficult for us to understand our place. So in other words the advancement of knowledge means the lessening of knowledge. Funny how that works.

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I'm also a fan of Dan Barker FFRF.org

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I don’t think this is a good criticism. As I understand it, first, traditional theology has it that God’s being is simple—rather than complex—because any complex (= composite) being can decompose. Of course, this ontologically simple being has infinitely many “great-making” qualities and abilities. Furthermore, for traditional theology it is wrong-headed to ask how God was created or where he came from since that can be meaningfully asked only of contingent beings, while God is held to be a necessary being. (A necessary being = a being that cannot not-exist.)

@icolan Well, I suppose one could give these comments as a special plea against criticism but, as I understand it, the concepts of necessity and simplicity were originally built in—as the early Christian religion was combined with Platonic philosophy to frame the theology.

Yes, but even a simple one celled microbe can die and decompose just as does a complex multicellular being.
If god created everything then who or what created god was a part of my thesis when I was studying for ThD ( Doctorate in Theology and Comparative Modern Religions), that thesis caused more than quite a 'stir' amongst the Believers who were studying at the time, but nowhere near as big a 'stir' as it was at the beginning when I declare to the whole class that I was an Atheist.
As the widely accepted dogma of Christianity clearly states, " Something CANNOT be made/created from nothing," but their precious bible clearly states, Chapter 1, page 1, verse 1 that, "In the beginning the was the word and the word was with God."
Ergo, since a mere WORD is actually nothing but vibrations then, according to their own beliefs Something was created/made from absolutely nothing, again that response caused yet another stir/uproar among the Believers in the class.

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Dan Barker is great. He’s so smart and talented.

1

Not exactly a new argument but apt. On the other hand, believers have already come up with their ridiculous response despite to it, as it is not new.

g

4

… and that creator must have a creator, and the one before also had to have a creator, so on ad infinitum.

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"god of the Gaps". He is getting smaller every day.

4

To me this is a duh fact. Why is it so dificult for people to grasp. Only one reason, fear.

6

Believers all tell you that god "always was" in order to void that question. These days they even have their god in "another dimension" to be sure they can protect him form you and your questions. This only makes it worse because it does not explain how you communicate from this dimension to his to make contact with him. They just keep making it up.

Right you are! Then when too many questions come up, it’s “we can’t explain the unexplainable” and “god’s plan is beyond our comprehension” and “because faith” yada yada - anything and everything to escape the inquisition.

@LimitedLight Yes, and all of that with not even a hint in the bibble.

@Bobby9 I might believe it of the universe.

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