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We so often learn far too late than the heroes of history were actually horrible people, and the so-called villainous monsters, bad guys, and no-good thugs were good.

Edison was a greedy scheming thief, yet we learn of his "achievements" while Tesla gets a minor footnote, Oda Nobunaga nearly achieved total peace in the warring states era before he was savagely betrayed and painted a monsterly villain, Columbus has a holiday named after him for his grand ability of landing in the wrong land and beginning a genocide, Aaron Burr is named a traitor to America when Hamilton's the reason we have a misguided corrupt political system in place by helping Jefferson win (and don't get me started on Jefferson)

It makes me wonder, honestly.

How many more out there have stories that are misguided and misrepresented? Why does it take so long for truth to be set free?

I hate that we live in a world where the winner decides the stories we tell.

LadyAlyxandrea 8 Sep 11
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35 comments (26 - 35)

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1

the truth is seldom set free. and if it is it's only noticed by a small % of ppl.

1

This one of the more interesting conversations I've seen on this site in quite awhile. The problem with heros are that the things that make them heros is that they are not afraid to make decisive moves.

"Decisive", not necessarily moral., ethical, or just, just decisive at the critical time. One characteristic of heros is their ruthlessness in the face of adversity. There ruthlessness against adversaries, real or imagined, against external threats or internal, foreign or economic.

When they succeed, humans have short memories and prefer happy endings. When they fail, they are vilified and their failure is held against them. But dispite their failure they were acting the same as those that succeeded. The thing that makes heros heros is the ability and willingness to do what needs to be done at the time that it needs doing, regardless of the outcome or impact of their actions. All heros are fallable, blind to opposing opinions, and capable of the greatest of action, and the worst of crimes.

Tom Hiddleston once said "every villain is a hero in his own mind" and that really rings true. It's all about perspective. As is said the road to hell is paved with good intentions

1

We make heroes out of high achievers and gods out of heroes. Then we are suddenly surprised when they turn out to have feet of clay. The phrase "He was no saint" is oft-quoted. If you read about the lives of saints you will find that they were not too nice either. For all their faults they leave there mark on history. You have a constitution however much flawed because of Jefferson.
Does it really matter if Martin Luther King's wife used to "fall down" a lot?
Our own British hero Churchill has his statue in the houses of parliament. Only one of of 3 commoners ever to have received a full state funeral. Yet many on the left would vilify him. He was a racist political dinosaur. If he had had his way it would have been the British that would have 1st dropped chemical weapons on the Kurds in Iraq. Yet his oratory and strength of purpose were exactly what my country required at its moment of need. On balance, the world was much better off for having him around. That's about the best you can say of anyone

Any German could easily justify Hitler with that type of comment.

@Archeus_Lore You and I use words like "fiance" because nearly 1,000 years ago William of Normandy invaded England. Any moral judgments of him, his personal life or reasons would seem rather superfluous now.
And no, you cannot say that the world was better off for having Hitler in it

Don't talk about Churchill to any Aussies who fought at Gallipoli or had relatives who fought there my friend.
The whole Gallipoli campaign (SLAUGHTER) was his idea and so the blood from the Anzac soldiers who died there will ALWAYS be on his hands.

The 'beloved' Pommie Hero, Churchill also wanted to abandon Australia to the Japanese in W.W.II simply because HE wanted OUR soldiers to FIGHT ONLY on the European and African Fronts and the lands that were more lucrative to England and Australian Prime Minister, Pig-Iron Bob, Menzies was in total agreement with Churchill. Luckily, Menzies got outed, we got a TRUE Aussie Prime Minister who stood up and told Churchill NO.

@273kelvin Yes I can say it, if I want to, and who are you to stop me? But more pointedly, I did not infer that I myself would use such an argument, I inferred that "any German" could. The harshness of the Treaty of Versallies would be more than enough for many of Hitler's contemporaries to justify everything he did, without hesitation, all based off of the German recovery and punishment of those who presided over the enforcement of the Treaty of Versallies. In fact, many of the German survivors of World War II still held Hitler in just as high regard as some Englishmen hold for Churchhill. One-sided views limit one's scope of understanding.

@Triphid Ah yes the Gallipoli myth. If you look a little closer at the history of it without prejudice. You will discover that Churchill wanted it to be a naval campaign only. (He was 1st sea lord at the time) It was Churchills bitter rival lord Kitchener that pushed for its expansion into a land battle. However, Kitchener died at sea (strange irony there) and they could not make a scapegoat out of a dead hero so Churchill took the fall. He may have been responsible for many dreadful things but I think that that was not one of them.

@273kelvin Churchill was told repeatedly that the Gallipoli Campaign ( Slaughter) was a terrible idea both from the Land Invasion and from the Sea perspective as well.
An Australian submarine, yes we had them during WWI btw, was sunk in the Straits near Gallipoli BECAUSE Churchill sent it in there and REFUSED to send Minesweepers in first, the entire crew was lost with the submarine, so add that to the list of Anzacs SLAUGHTERED at Gallipoli and blatant Pommie arrogance and mis-management.
Btw, the Gallipoli Slaughter IS NOT a 'Myth' it IS a 100% dyed in the wool FACT just as the slaughter of countless Anzacs used as cannon fodder by the Poms during WWI in Europe and even as many during WWII in Europe, Africa and S.E. Asia as well.
I lost 5, count them FIVE, relatives from BOTH sides of my family at Gallipoli and NONE were killed by Turkish fire, they died from disease preventable by the Poms IF they gave them adequate nutrition and clothing.
I had 2 Uncles who fought in WWII, ONE was a Rat Of Tobruk, the other fought first in New Guinea on the Kokoda Track and then through the islands, neither ever had a good word to say about the Pommie Army, etc,

@OwlInASack Did I say that? You are putting words in my mouth. Does not seem likely you read the posts before my last either. "Any German could easily justify Hitler with that type of comment." "I did not infer that I myself would use such an argument, I inferred that 'any German' could." "One-sided views limit one's scope of understanding." So does not reading the whole thread.

There is nothing wrong with using "old" expressions, in fact, you just used one yourself, and I could call that a "line". This is a feeble attempt to paint what I said with negative connotation. Obviously, it failed, because you used the very same type of expression yourself. Laughable attempt . . . . . you would have been much more respected had you admitted that it was clearly and unambiguously an attempt to put words in my mouth . . .
.
"The harshness of Versailles would justify the holocaust?" Tell me, where exactly did I mention the holocaust before? The fact is, I didn't, you brought it up, and attempted to tie it in with what I said. It is an assumption that I have a certain opinion about something that I never mentioned, and, you know what they say about assumptions, how's that for another old expression?

@Triphid I apologize if I gave the impression that the whole debacle was a myth. What I obviously meant was that it could be all laid at Churchills's feet. Subsequently released archives have cast new light on the affair.

@Triphid, @OwlInASack Btw my father was a submariner in WW2 in the Indian ocean. He had nothing but praise to say about the Australians but less than enthusiastic in regard to the yanks.

@273kelvin The Aussie soldiers had a name for the Yank troops, they called them "Overs" because they were Over-paid, Overfed. Oversexed and Over Here.

@Triphid Same here

@273kelvin They also coined another, less kindly, name for the Yanks, which still is in use here today at times, Seppos = Septic Tanks which rhymes with Yanks and as with Septic Tanks nothing good ever comes out them.
Though having said that I must say that I have quite a few very decent and good American friends on this site, so to them I apologise and say that we relies that NOT all Yanks fit that description.

@Triphid Although obviously not an American. My dad may have fallen into the over-sexed and over here category.
Near the end of the war (post VE), it was decided that the British and US fleets would combine operations in the Indian ocean. Dad was a radio operator and the Brits banged out morse code using the old fashioned method. Whereas the yanks typed theirs out as it was faster. Consequently, he was sent to Perth along with a dozen others to learn how to type in the Australian equivalent of the Pitman school. They were billeted in an old rope works with hammocks strung up. Can you imagine a dozen jolly jack tars in a secretarial school? He said to me "Son if I said that I spent one night in that rope works? I would be lying"

@273kelvin Yes, and like most 'visiting' troops they 'plowed the furrow, planted the seed and then went on their merry way' with little or no though as to what the resultant 'crop' would yield.

@Triphid Well there was a war on.
I love Spike Milligan's take on it. "The war was a great time for ugly people. You would get some guy that looked like a greek adonis lusting after a fat smelly NAFFE girl with a mustache and waxing lyrical as is she as Venus de Milo. Because she was the only woman around for miles"

@273kelvin ah yes, War the perfect excuse for men to chase around other countries, dip their wicks into anything in a skirt or looks remotely female and conveniently FORGET they have wives or girlfriends waiting for them back home.

1

Depends who's writing the history !

Also depends who is Reading the History... neo nazis have the same access to information that most of us in the other side of the equation have. And yet.... look where they stand. Hate is as addictive as opiates.

0

It seems to me that it is generally unwise to idolize anyone. Unfortunately, it happens way more often than not. And because of it, people end up overlooking, accepting and justifying immoral behavior by a few talented people which inspires the next generation to repeat. What would the world look like today if we held those who are idolized accountable in the same way as those who are not idolized?

0

Any one heard of this book? Sounds like something simular to what you are saying. I've never read it.

Title To the Victor Go the Myths and Monuments: The History of the First 100 Years of the War Against God and the Constitution, 1776 ? 1876, and Its Modern Impact
Author Arthur R. Thompson
Edition illustrated
Publisher American Opinion Foundation, Incorporated, 2016
ISBN 1936698013, 9781936698011
Length 544 pages

Word Level 8 Sep 13, 2019
0

Agree fully. We celebrate cutthroats. If he killed more of "them" he was a hero. T rex would eat you when hungry but he would not make a bomb and throw it on another continent to kill there.
I point to Monsanto how greed and corruption kills with impunity. Defoliant prayed on forests caused near extinction of leaf eating monkeys we talk about saving and protecting. 70% of insects are poisoned out. Human species will be next and let's hope that it will happen before we are smart enough to shit up another planet.

0

It’s pretty much standard in all countries. History is twisted to the benefit of the country teaching it. Why does the South honor men who were responsible for the deaths of thousands of men on both sides to support the slave economy? Japan and South Korea are fighting over Korean teaching that WWII Japanese used Korean women as troop prostitutes. Atrocities against Native Americans are pretty well never taught in K-12. This is the way of the world: countries want to promote their own glory, toot their own horn, no matter how many horrible things it took to get there.

0

While I agree in general, I do not agree with some examples you have provided. Tesla is by no means a footnote. He was popular during his times and remains so. His fault was probably in the business end of his inventions. Edison certainly doesn't deserve being called a theif. He was an inspirational inventor with a keen business sense. He is a complicated person, but his contribution to technology is beyond doubt.

The only thing we can say that Edison invented for sure by himself and not any of his team was "Hello". Before the word was coined by him Bell used "Ahoy hoy" to answer the phone (watch out for that joke when Mr Burns uses it in the Simpsons).

IF it were left up to Edison there would be NO AC/DC electrical power being supplied to home in America since Edison INSISTED that household/industrial Electric Power supplies SHOULD be D>C. ONLY.
Edison is well recorded for exerting pressure upon Tesla's Financial Backers for them to withdraw their support from Tesla.
Edison also PUBLICALLY Tortured and slowly EXECUTED an Elephant by using D.C. Current to TRY and prove that he was right and Tesla was wrong.
Tesla, although a somewhat eccentric, highly driven person WAS a True Genius and Edison was just a mere Grifter by comparison.

0

Unfortunately, that's reality, winners shape history, losers don't. But not all are losers or winners, sometimes you have to look at what was the output, some people are willing to forget the bad because him or her did mostly good overall, that's probably why Edison vs Tesla or Burr vs Madison and Jefferson may not be that clear cut, we're all human beings, nobody is perfect, yet some examples used here by some are so outlandish, like the Hitler crap because he transformed Germany doesn't mean we should forget his heinous crimes or Mussolini, most people fortunately are not THAT stupid.

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