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EDIT: Please keep in mind this is relative to a debate group/consortium I belong to comprised of hardcore Christians and Skeptics - openly and voluntarily discussing topics as they relate to belief vs non-belief. They proselytize- we counter.

DECONVERSION - Success stories!

Who among us has done the time, spilling blood, sweat and tears with a believer, and has seen the fruits of their labors unfold? (i.e. evolution from bible thumper to skeptic). Did any argument in particular result in the proverbial "aHA" moment? What worked - and what was a complete waste of time?

DallasKimmerzzz 5 Oct 14
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6

I do not make this effort. I do not have the time or inclination to de-convert anyone. As long as they leave me alone, then I leave them alone. The only issue is when they impose their fairy tales on us, then I do not hold back.

You describe the climate of the debate group I’m in. We heathens are preached at with voracity. It is satisfying to counter their efforts with science and logic as a whole

@DallasKimmerzzz
My question is: most of them are delusional, so logical argumentation and facts rarely resonate with this crowd, so is there any real influence to your discussions?

@skeptic70 - great question. I believe some are influenced judging from the dialog, and hope the seeds will germinate some day. In those cases, it’s interesting to see their fellow believers turn on them - chastising them for not being a “true Christian” when they ask too many questions. The tough nuts to crack are the calvinist - fundie - evangelical types. Thoroughly entrenched in dogma, it’s disturbing (think Jonestown, Scientology types).

@DallasKimmerzzz With those nuts, nothing can be done. Those ideas are etched in stone.

@skeptic70 I think you’re right - but with that said, it can be fun exposing their weaknesses in a public forum (if I have the stomach for it that day) 😉

@DallasKimmerzzz I just have trouble dealing with people who do not accept facts and base everything on faith without a shred of evidence. I am a rationalist, in part a product of Enlightenment thinking and rationalist modernism.

6

I went to a Catholic College for my last two years and had to take an additional 24 credits in Philosophy and Theology. Sartre, Camus, Kierkegaard, Simone De Beauvois, Hegel and Heidigger brought a light to my mind, I never knew existed. Theology on the other hand was just as insightful with Victor Frankel, Malcolm X, Claude Brown, Frans Fanon and the fact that the Bible was written through the 'Hearts, Minds, Hopes and Fears of Four Crude Ignorant Men.'
Put them onto the Foutune 50 of Millionaire Church Leaders and you will find more that 50. Just tell them to pick three and see what they have to say. Turn them on to Matt Dillahunty or Bart Ehrman both of whom are on You Tube for 'FREE' and whom give great lectures and debates. These persons have excellent credentials as Authors, Lecturers and are not afraid to debate rationally.

Fortunately Matt D is a fellow Texan and has participated in the group debates multiple times. It’s fun to watch him work - the end result is usually watching apologist heads spin 😆

Who are the ‘Four Crude Ignorant Men’?

5

I have seen a couple of such transitions play out on another site over a period of years. People who came initially to argue with atheists and then, in spite of themselves, became one. I don't think there was, in their case at least, any particular magic argument. Like any major life change, it's a combination of factors and influences and it's the person themselves who decides, for those many reasons, that the pain of changing has become less than the pain of not changing. One day they suddenly find all the arguments they rejected out of hand, to be plausible. It's like dominoes falling.

I'm an example of what I suppose is a rather more common scenario -- no one argued me out of my faith; rather, I experienced personal suffering that conflicts with what religion is supposed to provide (safety, comfort, blessing). For any given person that can be a seminal event (e.g., the death of a loved one) or a series of festering frustrations. It takes a lot of energy to rationalize god's absence or indifference in your life when he's supposed to be a deeply committed interventionist. That is why I frequently say that Christianity is an abstraction that works well, until it no longer does 😉

The two deconversions I mention above were fundamentalists, and so was I. And this points out another thing: I would think that a deconvert is far more likely to arise from the more extreme forms of religion (e.g., fundamentalism) than from liberal religion. Liberal Christians, relatively speaking, don't take themselves or their faith that seriously or hold it that closely. This means they're far less likely to have unrealistic expectations of their faith or of their god --or, indeed, of life itself. It's more a bunch of comforting / familiar rituals and practices and dictums than a blueprint for life. They might drift away from it but they will not reject it like tainted food. It doesn't really effect them that way.

This might be the most cogent viewpoint I’ve read in a long time. I especially relate to “....takes a lot of energy to rationalize gods absence” et al. Thank you @mordant

Good point about liberal theists...

5

I am forever amazed at the blind ignorance of believers. Sometimes it is hard for me to understand how I remained one until around 2012 or so. Deconverting a believer would be in the same league as trying it with a Trumper. Hold on because you are about to hear tons of bullshit.

TRUTH!!!

4

I never try. My experience has been folks have to figure it out themselves.

4

Not my purpose in life to deconvert no one. If someone wants to openly discuss whatever then I can jump on it. However, if their intent is to talk me into their mind set then I will have fun with it until I get bored and then just drop the conversation altogether.

“...openly discuss”. Yes that’s what I’m referring to. In this case, it’s an open debate forum between believers and skeptics. I, too, get bored or (more often) become frustrated with the lack of reason from the other side.

@DallasKimmerzzz It's not easy to find the right person to have an interesting discussion with no prejudice but when it happens, it's really interesting. As far as IamConcerned, there is only one way to find that person... Gotta keep trying and move fast to the next at the first sign of frustration coming up.

4

I have planted many seeds of doubt that have flourished into rational minds but for de-conversion. . . I can only claim 3 definitive victories of reason over silly make believe. The most pleasant outcome was a young man (early 20's) who began his journey by listening to me debating a batshit crazy (god wants us to kill the gays (Catholic)) theist. The young man had many questions for me and over the course of many months and many, many hours of answering his questions I finally broke through. He thanked me many times for releasing him from the fear of burning in hell (he would often wake up from a hell related nightmare), and for allowing him not to fear all the different people (gay, transgender, atheist, etc. his church (Catholic) had taught him to fear. As I predicted, he agreed the experience of becoming a free thinker was like lifting a veil of darkness and being able to see and appreciate the greater beauty of truth over fiction.

@nomagiccookie that is an amazing story - thank you for sharing! Did the young man have a particularly visceral response to inconsistencies in the Bible or was it more of an epiphany that his indoctrination was a load of hooey? Something else?

I enjoyed reading this . Thank u for typing it .

@DallasKimmerzzz It was a long (about 4 months of discussion almost every day (he worked at the YMCA (my gym/(theist hunting ground)) and very gradual growth. I gave him a pile of examples of problems with theists, truth vs faith, and a long list of YouTube channels and specific arguments to watch. The straw that finally opened his eyes was his (roughly) "Ok, I accept everything you have told me but I can't get over priests being ordained by god; How they are our special leaders: if they believe in god, even though there is no evidence of a god, there has to be a god". I reminded him about the Clergy Project and reminded him to look up (youtube) Edward Tarte: Once a Catholic priest that is now an active and open atheist. I told him to watch all of Edwards videos of what is was like being a Catholic priest. The next day he began thanking me for helping making his world a better place to life.

4

Ohferpetessake, "blood, sweat, tears"??? How about just, one day, "meh" and walking away......not my job, not at all.......

@annewimsey My comment below explains the reason for the OP: Tips for a debate group between Fundies and Heathens, for pete's sake 😉

4

Sure seems to me to be a complete waste of time and energy. They're happy in their bubble and will not let anyone come along and change it -- total cognitive dissonance.

I've thought about how I've changed my mind on a few social issues and it seems to me to be a gradual process over a fair amount of time as new facts come to light along with some amount of social trend influence.

@jerry99 Cognitive Dissonance, Dunning Kruger, and some I've encountered are just afraid to rock the boat by asking too many questions because..... smite!!! I'm in a debate group filled with apologetic fundies vs heathens, batting back and forth over beers. The group is not for sissies and many times I've been driven to cuss by the willful ignorance, presuppositions, and lack of reason/intelligence. This OP is looking for that secret recipe - but like you, I doubt such a thing exists.

3

Cant say that I have. But I have not tried to either.

2

I don’t try to convert any religious people to non-belief in fairy tails. I’m better at climate debates. Like expounded on the virtue of solar and electric vehicles because I have both.

2

Pontificating, bloviating, expounding, getting into the weeds--waste of time.
A simple, "I'm an agnostic, open-minded but my personal opinions are fact-based," might not be much better, but it's better for a climate already too full of hot air.

“I’m agnostic, open minded...” blah blah doesn’t work in a debate group with Christians and Skeptics discussing their views.

@DallasKimmerzzz You're right, of course. By "skeptics" do you mean "atheists" or "agnostics?"
I guess I'M a skeptic, but I try not to debate, because that would mean I have a position to defend, one I feel passionate about.
If my position is, I THINK "Jesus" is a fictional character, for instance, or a composite straw man created by the Romans, or maybe an actual human being lost to history and without miraculous powers--maybe psychic or something but no more--OR...I'm sure true-blue believers would find issue with that, and insist on a debate.
At that point, depending on my mood, energy level, the tone and quality of the general discourse, I MIGHT tentatively engage, but only to a point. As soon as the opposing camps--fact vs. faith--hardened, I'd look for the exit.
And that time always comes. I know it, you know it, so why bother in the first place?

@Storm1752 I use skeptics as a blanket description because, if we’re being intellectually honest, we’re all skeptics, yes? I totally see where you’re coming from - I wrestle with the minutiae and sheer ignorance spewing from the group and there have been many times I wanted to cut bait - ”why bother?” More often than not, actually. Oddly enough though, I’ve found by engaging with these nitwits and witnessing how deep they dig their holes, I’ve learned a lot - especially the vulnerabilities on both sides and how to navigate them. I think the essence of debate is, to develop and hone critical thinking and communication skills - besides, having a background in law doesn’t help me walk away from an argument either 🤣 This post is an invitation for those who’ve seen an evolution from believer to skeptic by way of logic and reason, to come forward so I can adopt any tips or at minimum, live vicariously thru them 😉

@DallasKimmerzzz Like I said, I'll go so far and no farther. That's usually not very far.
Good luck!🦊

2

I've converted a large number of people from PC to Mac users, but I don't think I've ever converted someone to an atheist.

Stenz Level 6 Oct 15, 2019

I love Mac!

@Coffeeman I'm going to make a group!

2

One of the most difficult aspects of “decoversion” is here you are on Earth and everything you’ve known is a lie so what is true and do you want to know?

2

I simply point out what's wrong with their arguments when they want to talk to me about the bible and religion. And believe me, I'm more than happy to talk to them. You're probably not gonna "deconvert" just in a simple conversation. But what you do is creating doubt and planting seeds. If they're curious and want more information that they can read or research for themselves, I'll point them in the right direction. Then if they come back for another conversation, that's when you know you're deconverting them. Baby steps seem to work best from my experience.

can you elaborate on “pointing out what’s wrong in their arguments”? For instance do you get more out of sharing inconsistencies of the Bible or hypocrisy? Do you go the science route with young earthers?

2

I was Not Born de Deconvert anyone.... that is like a Believer on Reverse... Not.... I am Not.

The believers in the debate group I’m in will actively proselytize. Us heathens continually poke holes in their arguments. No matter what, they are not swayed by logic or reason. Mind boggling I tell ya.

@DallasKimmerzzz Do not doubt it. I just do not waste my breathe on believers.

2

Never! My dream is to someday help convert somebody.

2

Only if they ask first.

1

Too many times to count. The method, gentle reasoning. Plant the seeds of why God/s are made by mankind, not the other way around.
In the case of Christians, there are so many instances of where the act of God is plain evil. As for Muslims, the Maxim gun always defeats Allah. Thus, with promises of victory, the mechanical chatter of machine guns cuts down the warriors of Islam time and time again.

@sofabeast thank you! Gentle reasoning is always the way to go imo. To expand on your point, I’ve found some success pointing out the flaws related to god being all powerful, omnipotent, omniscient vs life on this rock, poking holes using the many contradictions found in the Bible. This is a debate group I’m in - the fundies can be particularly voracious in their dogma 😆

1

The people I find most annoying are the "liberal Christian church" folks who attempt to justify a belief in God through study of natural history and biological evolution.

Yes! These guys really exist, and they're not "intelligent design" types. They're "Christianity 2.0" (i.e., "atheist hypocrites" ).

In all fairness, it's a relief to hear poetic language about Darwin rather than Moses, but these guys slip in a shift from mystery to divinity that has nothing to do with science. And they also imply that, while humans may be imperfect vessels, the moral compass advocated by Christian churches is somehow justified by science.

"Painting the Stars" is an example of this message in DVD form.

I guess their game plan is "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em and spin the message".

AJ413 Level 3 Oct 15, 2019

That’s insane 😆 So far I haven’t come across one of those - my head might explode. With that said “spin the message” and cherry picking are definitely popular go-to’s for the indoctrinated in all sects, I’ve found.

1

As a militant atheist,,, i want to convert people to atheism! Atheism is the way, of truth, science, and logic!

1

If someone is bigoted or tries to push their religion on others, i'm not interested in talking to them. if they're not doing either of those things, why do i care if they're religious? i don't see a reason to go around trying to "deconvert" people.

1

you know ... I think it's rude to try to make someone an atheist. I wish I could live in blissful ignorance. I just can't.

Do you think indoctrination is rude?

@DallasKimmerzzz I have reservations about it certainly, but if I am gonna be a follower then it may as well be of the prevailing culture in my locale. Maybe the followers just aren't ready to strike out on their own yet? Not everyone seeks truth.

1

The only people I really might try to influence are family members because I would like to be a good influence on them and see their energy devoted to more « effective good » rather than « feel good » types of service.

But you have to respect boundaries and even teach then how to initiate boundaries so they feel safe in the conversation.

Myah Level 6 Oct 14, 2019

<< effective good >> I like that, thank you 😊

0

It’s a waste of time

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