I must admit that I am not American so I am just farting around

@Spongebob

In this particular thread, I think it's clearly in place and appropriate to get a fresh perspective from outside the US. As it happens, your point of view is somewhat close to my own.

"....we go through cycles like this now and then...."

I don't think so. I can't remember the last time a President, in broad daylight, openly sought to take over the entire government by trying to cripple the entire voting system. I can't remember the last time a couple hundred thousand extra Americans died at the hands of such casual Presidential malfeasance (pandemic malfeasance in this case).

Thanks for your input. Again, personally, I think getting even just an attempt at a rational view from outside the US, as we go through this awfulness (such as the efforts, which are going on as I write, to take over my government, in broad daylight, by sabotaging the voting system)....can be really a welcome thing.

A few thoughts:

• The "stupid" I am referring to extends pretty far in my view. It is not just that of Trump or any group, nor does it just apply to any one issue, but I am asking if we can survive our aggregated stupid, that we hundreds of millions of US citizens have been evidencing so gratuitously in so many ways and votes and conversations, over the last four years, and earlier. We used to hear the word "democracy" a lot more than we do now, but if it can be said that there is at least an element of "grand democratic experiment" to the U.S. of A., then isn't there a clear defining element within that concept of elected officials and their actions and statements expressing the "will of the people" or, to parse it better, the inclinations of some of the people while at the same time, for those who don't agree, they do agree that they've had their say, and they agree to abide by the laws. This is not to be naive about the US voting system as it presently stands, I just want to bookmark that point that if the US is supposed to be some sort of "democracy", then let's acknowledge that when the fox gets let into the henhouse by some of the folks in a democracy, there's still the need for us to pull together and think and take better action, and take some responsibility for fixing and addressing what has happened.

• To take one example: I am reading headlines of the moment which talk about Trump arguably playing a part in encouraging a terrorist plot against a US governor. In a country of thoughtful voters, Trump would, for this and various other reasons, be out of a job and in prison. Yet, I seem to hear crickets from too many quarters on this point.

• I think the problem is not philosophy of government or political debate and principles, but something deeper. Another example of the stupid that is a bit closer to home is that after 20-30-40 years of seeing politicians cash in on that portion of American Stupid which has to do with religion and belief in God and any other manner of Supernatural bs, whenever I have seen that, and it has been a lot, I have had to think to myself "there has to be some sort of price we are going to have to pay, for this much bad thinking, and this many important decisions based on it". So, I think, here we are.

• With that said, I think it's not so much the theistic religions/philosophies which have ruined things, but that they have been out there failing us while we have failed to turn to something better.

• So, I see this as a US intellectual/philosophic/moral bankruptcy. I just hope that:

• we are able to pull our act together in our bankruptcy court and elect the non-insane executor of the situation for four years.

• that he and his running mate use the bullypulpit of the Presidency (arguably/informally its most important power) to help us get our heads in a much better place.

• In the meantime, I am concerned that the economic situation is shaping up, for many, to be dire, and that this situation, in combination with the almost laughably sadistically bad leadership over the last four years, and the ongoing pandemic, will result in a situation that we can't come back from.