@OnaM I lived in Colorado from 1990 until 1994.

@OnaM As many times as I've wanted to move to Colorado, I haven't because toxic masculinity seems as big there as in North Carolina. Sigh.

@OnaM Heard! Yet a woman with those qualities is supposed to be genuinely attracted to him and not a golddigger? That's the toxic masculinity I'm referring to. It's pie in the sky ego.

@hemingwaykitten, @OnaM

I'm sure there's someone around who's worthwhile. I have definitely seen what you're talking about, but I've seen some good guys too. I know you'll probably think at first that I don't see the same side of guys that women do, but they don't try to hide it from other men. Often they're proud of their ignorance.

@JimG Thank you for your viewpoint and encouragement. Here's my issue with the men you describe: if I was attracted to a man proud of his ignorance, I'd have been off the market long ago and committed to a gun totin Evangelical who wanted to keep me barefoot, pregnant, cooking and cleaning for life while he sat on his ass and drank PBR's. No thanks!! I'm pretty good at articulating what I want, and men who pretend to be ignorant are abhorrent to me. It's a wonder all such men aren't living in their Mommy's basement.

Who aren't easily intimidated what what or whom?

Me too!

Whenever I hear this coming from a straight man's mouth I wonder if he's a leech looking for a Sugar Mama. Sorry, that's past experience talking, not about you personally.

@hemingwaykitten fair enough but ya see the thing is most women I encounter are looking for a sugar daddy..Now I make good money, own two cars and a house(at 28 I'd say I'm doing good)

My need for a sugar mamma isn't exactly dire..I say I want a strong independent woman because I'm looking for someone who can contribute to the relationship both financially and to help shoulder the responsibilities involved.

Keep in mind that first part isn't meant to encompass all women out there I know that what I've enounctered doesn't represent the entirety of the female population...Just with the areas I've lived in for the past few years the term "dependapotomus" is fairly accurate for quite a few.

@josh23452 I believe you and I know women wanting Sugar Daddies are a plague on this country. Have you considered your dream woman will probably make at most 78 cents to your dollar, so things won't ever be exactly equal?

@hemingwaykitten i don't require 50/50..I just require...Something one of my measures for a dateable woman is this..

If we go for dinner and a movie,I'll get dinner but it's nice if she gets the movie..Or even if it's just getting a cup of coffee..If the balance is 70/30, that's fine too but that 30 better be 100% of what you can do.

However it's not all about the finances and for that I'm gona tell you a story.

While I was in the Navy, one of the women I dated, we had been seeing each other for about a year and decided it was high time to get a place together...Unfortunately I had to go out to sea for a month and I asked my lady to look for some places,not just online but physically go out and look around for rental properties...

So while I'm at sea working 12 hours a day, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with the world's worst internet access, I would still find the time to look for places,talk to land lords and property owners, trying to find a suitable place...I get back and whilst talking to my lady I ask if she has found anything

She hadn't even looked...

Now it shouldn't of been possible for me to put more effort into that project..Not while I was where I was..Thats what I am talking about.

@josh23452 I get it. Good story. Why were you attracted to her? She comes off as lazy and not too bright. More importantly, why would you assume you'll find those negative qualities in most other women? It comes off a little hostile to women who are nothing like her.

@hemingwaykitten well at first we hit it off just fine and her laziness wasn't so apparent at first..

And I never said anything to the affect of lumping all women into that category I just said I like strong independent women and to further it I said I want a woman who can contribute to building the relationship and can help (at least in some way with the finances..

Again I never said anything assuming that was a quality in all women.

You make odd assumptions my friend...First I say I like strong,independent women you take that to mean I want a sugar mama. I explain why I want a strong,independent woman and you say I must be talking shit about all women.

@josh23452 Fair enough. You could try being open about that relationship though, because "strong and independent" can be taken many different ways by different people. Your story, however, makes it crystal clear what you DON'T WANT, and why. Just a thought.

@hemingwaykitten. True I can see how strong can be taken several ways but I would think independent is pretty straight forward not to mention easily distinguished.

@sarahjustme doesn't flow as well.

What if she's smarter than you? What if she's a genius? I find most men don't handle that consequence well at all. Curious what you think.

@hemingwaykitten I've met my match before, and I enjoy it.

It'll sound egotistical, but I rarely do, so it's a treat when I can wax on long philosophical rants and actually be challenged and made to reconsider or defend something more deeply than I expected.

I was madly in love with a foreign national in grad school for just that reason.

She spoke more languages than me, she could run arguments more cleanly than I on a first pass, she fenced with me (figuratively and sabre, epee and foil) it was a lot of fun.

I was the better rider though. ?

I miss it.
And my ego can handle it.

@WileEQuixote Excellent...you give me hope for the future. Thanks!

@hemingwaykitten welcome and good luck!

Your definitions of "self-sufficient" and "responsible" will be hard to find anywhere you go. It's awfully tough for a woman to see "her superior value" when she makes 78 cents to your dollar. Life takes its toll on everyone. It's natural to fear making the same mistake again with partners who aren't honest up front, not "irresponsible!" Every one of us carries baggage from how we've been treated by selfish partners. If you can't handle even a carry-on, it's best not to board the plane.

@hemingwaykitten Correct on many points. However, averages do not dictate all individual data points. I personally know several women who make more then I do for a similar job.

Also, I did specify "yet to be resolved" as I recognize to anticipate any person "not burdened by a piles of earlier mistakes" is nearly unattainable. If a person has resolved their issues, fine they are, (no longer) "yet to be resolved".

This is my (largely unattainable standard) because I burned (and sacrificed once in a lifetime opportunities) and nearly decade trying to "fix" a broken woman.

She was very young when her grey haired married next door neighbour raped her for many years until she was in her teens and she had the self-worth to refuse his attacks. Although she became a brilliant Physician's Assistant, as what I am guessing was a result of her early childhood including possible (abandonment issues)? she was sadly broken beyond repair and most likely did not achieve her full potential and is not as productive as she could have been. Years ago she disappeared off the roster of the hospital (I tried to look her up to mail her a spoon I found in my car (she highly valued her silverware) Today, according to the internet her PA license status is listed as "inactive" and there is a mark for bankruptcy (this makes me sad as she was a good person with a broken heart and many unresolved issues). Also, the last story she told me was her plan to travel again to Mexico to "save" her drug addicted (20 years her junior) boyfriend (easier to try to fix someone else's problems then address your own). She had a litany of self destructive behaviours that included eating disorder, sex-addict, self medicating drugs, and (last time I saw her, (drove 1400 miles (round trip) to help her move many years ago)) destructive shopping habits as she had just filled her one bedroom apartment with a half dozen new (purchased) couches that left no room to walk in her living-room/kitchenette area. I think these behaviours are not (responsible) and were a result of her continued unresolved conflict.

I've witnessed several other relationships where women were married to guys who did not have their heads on straight. Their (husbands) irresponsible behaviour cost their women partners much pain, financial trauma, and many years before they had the good sense to divorce their dead-beat/bat-shit crazy/and in one case, cheating husband.

And yes, I do not wish to "board" that "plane" again as I earlier stated "I have no anticipation of finding such a woman . . . " who meets my standards.

@NoMagicCookie I understand how your history in that long relationship would have left a bad taste in your mouth. Why did you stay ten years?

As it often appears to me, men who sacrifice for unfixable women afterwards believe they must maintain an impossible standard. This insulates them from any other relationships, good or bad, which they might find. It's as if after one horrible mistake happens, but they never move forward out of fear, and keep themselves alone by their own standards for women.

Why would any man assume one incompatible woman would be predictive of her entire gender? While I'm sure women are guilty of it too, I come across this far more often in men. The man makes a painful error in attaching himself to an incompatible woman, then all subsequent, maybe wonderful, women pay the price. It's not another woman's fault that you stayed too long in a bad situation. Why take it out on them (and yourself) by setting an impossible standard? It just sounds hard headed and irrational.

I've dated some terrible men: narcissists who hid it, abusers who hid it, closet alcoholics, closet IV drug users, hustlers who just wanted a roof over their head...and some incredibly wonderful, compassionate men where we just didn't click for whatever reason. I wouldn't have had any of the good experiences holding each man to my idea of perfection:

A self-aware guy who can laugh at his flaws and mine without turning pouty

An emotionally generous man who thinks my time is as important as his

A good job making enough for us both, so I could take a risk on my dream career

A romantic, but not the effeminate guy who makes me watch "The Notebook" when I prefer "Gone In 60 Seconds"

@hemingwaykitten You have made another set of valid points. Your first question (why ten years) is most profound. To understand the answer to that question it is necessary to look deeper into the ten year experience. I’ll follow it with a potential psychological answer to that question. I am guessing other (men) who display this tenancy may have similar back-stories.

I’ll refer to the woman I spent time with as PA.
For starters, although PA asked for and I did give her an engagement ring (she eventually lost it on a trip to Mexico for an intimate meeting with another man), I never anticipated a happy ending as, although I moved in with her, I kept my apartment (this was a wise choice). I dreaded her roughly by-weekly manic periods as they were always followed by an equally severe depressed state where I would spend hours late into the night standing holding her gently and assuring her she was good, while she cried leaving the back of my shirt wet with her tears. I could make a long list of the roller-coaster she rode and the mind-distorting experiences she shared and was unable to resolve.

This relationship began when the Orchestra director suggested I (Bassoon) get to know one of the (recently divorced) French Horn players. After greeting her, in the beginning days she introduced me to her younger friend (10 years her junior (my age)). Her fiend and I instantly hit it off wonderfully. Soon PA and her friend were generous, kind and flirtatious. (Nothing sexual) I could have chosen her comparatively undamaged younger friend and I am very confident that relationship would have flourished as we had exactly the same sense of humour, intellect, and shared an almost magic chemistry. Together we honestly made each other happy (this was the only relationship I have ever encountered that met that standard) (not sexual). I however choose the older, broken woman because she quickly displayed an enormous need for someone to (try to) save her. When PA hand-made and gave me a soft robe, I felt obligated to try to repay the gift regardless of cost and focused ALL my social efforts on trying to save PA. As a result, over the years I sadly watched her younger friend (several (six?) years later) settle for a man who was not her intellectual equal. It was profoundly sad when, shortly after she married the man, she asked my advice to solve simple (house reconstruction) problems her husband could not solve. This happened twice and we both seemed to exude a sad regret for this sad outcome of reality. (kind of like the (if only) ending from LA LA Land) (picked up that movie because it was supposed to be “good” but I found it, from the beginning, as unsettling as “Requiem for a Dream&rdquo I made it a point to never encounter her again. When she and her husband had their first child, I heard things were not good as she (according to PA) wanted nothing to do with her husband's child. Years later while unpacking, (after moving roughly 200 miles from that town) I ran across a long forgotten old heart shaped Valentine's chocolate box and cards she had given me. (sad) This reminded me of another box she had given PA to give away at a rummage sale and how PA sadly asked me if I recognized the contests of the box: all the outer clothing her friend wore when we first met. I almost detected a faint hint of “I’m sorry” from PA when she confirmed the origins and meaning (it hurts her friend to have these) of the contents of the box.

As for incompatibility, the last question PA (painfully? (tears in her eyes and broken voice)) asked just before leaving the state was, "Why don't you ever get mad at me?" I don't remember my kind reply. It was only then (the end (except for one other time helping her move (in another state) a half year later) I realized she believed she needed someone to get angry and yell at her; to express outrage when she (insert any sad behavioural-outcome you can imagine, it is likely representative of what I lived with.) I did not fit that bill.

Finally: to answer the “ten year” question: After PA left the state and I left the town, I spent hundreds of hours walking alone at night trying to answer that question. It took months and a lot of mental processing but I managed to trace the probably roots of my character flaw (living in a half baked sense of reality (like being religious) and subsequently placing the needs of others above my own) back to several early (single digit age) events including where I did not provide adequate protection for someone. For decades after, I was blamed for the dismal outcome of the one I did not protect. I internalized guilt and a need to try to save people as a form of quiet personal absolution. Also, my beloved grandmother (who to me was insanely caring and selfless) died from an extremely nasty bout with breast cancer when I was also in the single digit years. I was lucky enough to have two working parents (both teachers) but my selfless mother who would work hard in the day and correct papers late into the night often cried while correcting papers because of the lack of money, stress (dying mother) and other factors defining the predicament of her life. I felt somewhat responsible for her sorrow and this hurt. I think the really early years are paramount in defining what and who you are. I think these events and (during younger years) being expected to be “strong” “1st born”, “leader”, “smart” etc. set the stone foundations of my character.

Even though I am now aware of that (and another) character flaw, the origins, and outcomes, I am not sure I can completely mitigate this flaw.

As for “assume one incompatible woman would be predictive of the entire gender?” I have encountered and recognize there are quality women. I just don’t anticipate encountering another that would meet my standards AND I would meet hers.

For example: after moving to a different town, I dated a few: The first on-line encounter was a 400 mile distraction and she turned out to be a devout theist. An utter waste of time but I learned “theist” is absolutely not acceptable to me. The second on-line encounter (local) was a hurt woman that had recently divorced her dead-beat husband who took her to the cleaners leaving her with enormous debt and a rather nasty incurable STD. She disliked any physical interaction so she shared the story but not the STD. Then a single, non smoking, not religious, no kids (180 miles away) woman who, after hours on the road turned out to be married (husband in jail) lots of kids, smoker, and religious woman. Then onto another on-line woman who (after hundreds of miles on the road also needed “saving&rdquo. I then came to the realization this (on-line) process is rather futile and a waste of time and gas. (I never paid for on-line service). Sense then I have had a few younger (half my age) women face to face ask me out because they don’t realize how old I am. And one younger guy ask me out (I am not gay but I work out so at that time I was chiselled. This is no longer the case as I cut my daily gym time from three hours a day to half an hour a day so now I look more like a washed-out old short chubby quarterback.) I had acne early on and now, with residual acne potholes, look decades younger then I am. I now tell such social opportunities that I am way to old. This saves time. When a similar age women initiates a social interaction I have found it useful to clearly demonstrate the high degree of pity I have towards any superstitious (religious) person and my contempt for all faith based assertions presented as truth (religions). Strange really, I feel a sense of relief when for example months ago while a single and attractive woman over a glass of wine (earlier that day she noted she loved choke-cherry wine so I told her I had many home made bottles and her she could have a bottle) in my formal dining room, sadly replied, after my long spiel of the evils of faith, “but I’m a theist.” (potential relationship successfully terminated)
Ironically, (this almost never happens) a few days ago while at the "Y" a younger then I but not terribly young woman (who earlier noted my interactions with others (I use the YMCA to hunt theists (I have De-converted a few) and occasionally just emphasis the importance of science) told me I was desirable (she had more descriptive words followed by a blushing “I shouldn’t have told you that”. Yesterday she spent a great deal of time noting she was older and didn’t fit in with the younger crowd. I haven’t yet attacked “faith” with her but I will likely soon employ that cudgel in the near future as it is likely “faith” is a part of her life as she danced around “lets not talk about that” topic a few nights ago. I really shouldn’t waste too much of her time and affirm my position by getting back down to attacking “Faith claims” as a pathway to finding truth as dishonest.

Your set of requirements is good. Your third standard: “A good job making enough for both. . . “ disqualifies most people I know including myself. I make enough for me (house paid for, no debt, many years of savings stashed away) but my job, like most in this part of the world, does not provide enough money for two to live comfortably and save for retirement. For example, where I currently work, having a second person on insurance costs over $800/month more then just one. (although I am not a member, most of the demographic I work with have a very high rate of expensive health issues so our health care pool rates are “among the highest”.)

I have not and do not plan to see “The Notebook” as it looks lame.

@NoMagicCookie What a thoughtful, insightful and very honest post. Thanks for sharing all of that.

Wondering what STI out there qualifies as "nasty and incurable." AIDS? Herpes? Are either of them really "nasty"?

The Notebook was not, in my opinion, lame at all. The book had me crying like a big baby. The movie was good - but not as good as the book.

@BlueWave Books are almost always significantly better then the movie. "The Notebook" is probably good but just not my type of movie. I'm more into movies like "Saving Private Ryan" "The Iron Giant" "Big Fish" "The Hunt For Red October" "The Corpse Bride" Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc.

On the book VS the movie, I once enjoyed "The Golden Compass" (movie) that was until I got around to reading the book. WOW just WOW. The movie dilutes the rich gritty dark world and plot into a Disney - like fairy tale.

On another point, After some reflection I was wrong. It was not a 10 year experience but an 8 year time period. I had forgotten it took two years in that town that I burned a decade in before that experience began.

@SACatWalker depends on what form of Grammerism one follows. You are right, but in my defense, I am on a cell, and typing becomes cumbersome at times as well. I should have caught that, but grammer is not my strong point. I am more about using a language from the discriptive philosophy rather than a prescriptive philosophy. I was not even thinking in that manner, just trying to be funnie. The conscious thought was communicated. But that is comical, and Im not tall.

PS

I know the difference.

@SACatWalker I am always correcting myself an having to to retype, mistroke keys had about 8 juat 9 in this sentenxw 10 alone. ? no harm bo 11 no foul. I did miss that though.

Just remember that true intimacy takes some time and lots of trust.

HippyChick58 is right, you know. How soon in a relationship do you expect "true intimacy" to arrive? The timeline on her end depends on how many men have abused her trust.

Thank you for these comments. But these comments are all based on the assumption that time brings people together. I do not believe that is what matters. I have waited for years for true intimacy to come forth. Many times it does not, in the rare occasion it happens on the first meeting. Any good counselor will tell you that time is not the key but progress. If there is a continuous progression, even if very gradual, toward it then it might be worth waiting for but there needs to be progress from the start. Otherwise it is like waiting on an alcoholic to get sober. AwarenessNow, you are so right it takes vulnerability, so I say submit to the universe from the start. But not many follow through.

You should give her driving lessons! That would be sooo exciting!

@HeraTera Tried that. Didn't take. Since we got married, our son was conceived, gestated, born, went to daycare, preschool, elementary school, middle school, is now in high school, and he got his driver's license almost a year ago. . . So I give up. I made a bad choice and am stuck with it.

@Otterpop She needs one of those self-driving cars once they get the bugs worked out of them

@SweetHarp If it doesn't, I'm screwed and never dating again.

What's wrong with needing your partner's help? That's a big reason people get into committed relationships, on both sides!

@hemingwaykitten Thank you for pointing out a near fatal flaw in my writing. Your point is correct - in a committed relationship, we each want/need what the other provides.

I've spent the last several minutes trying to refine my want vs need comment - it comes down to I am looking for an equal partner - as smart/charming/successful/handsome/capable/empathetic/etc. as I perceive myself -- I'm not perfect, nor do I expect my partner to be perfect. There's more, but it's too late at night for me to think it through well enough to put on paper.

Again, thanks for kicking me in the shins to force me to think this through more clearly.

Rachel Maddow definitely stops clocks with her looks! For me and @redcupcoffee for starters!

I can't stand NASCAR, having grown up in North Carolina. Other than that, where do I apply??

@hemingwaykitten You voted for Bernie, as far as I'm concerned you already made the cut.

If this thread were for what women look for in men - then you show some honesty. Might get some points there

At least these men are trying to think further than their dick. You aren't, and that's all I need to know!

What if she's smarter than you? What if she's a genius? Just curious.

@hemingwaykitten My wife was smarter than me. It's a challenge, something to work toward. And it gives you a lot to think about.

My German GF had all three of those. It wasn't enough to keep me even if she could Salsa with the best. But your choice were interesting and maybe my choices in 1998. But this is 2018. I will ask you the question in 2038.

Right here!

A superior response! A+

What is selfful to you?

I'm aware! My pet peeve is how men can't seem to discern the word "woman" as opposed to "women." Men do it a lot, as if all women are the same, a monolith of identical pussy. I've never seen a woman do the same thing when speaking of a man or men.

I was slightly confused by the question . did it mean what attracts you to a prospective friend or what are women's best qualities ?

I'm happy for you!

If you aim too low, I guarantee you will be miserable.

Cute.