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According to the preamble “.. in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity...”

My question to you: What do you think the role(s) of government should be? Particularly in regards to society/citizenry...

Canndue 8 Dec 27
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0

Well looking from the outside inwards as a complete outsider can, I'd say that that 'preamble' was a race-horse that fell at the gates and has gone nowhere ever since in relation to the United States of Absurdity these days.
The U.S. of Absurdity claims to be the Shining Light of Democracy, etc, etc, for the entire world BUT, in fact and the truths of Reality it has shown itself to be little more than the guttering flame of a match in the darkness.
Let us take a GOOD look at a few points here,
"In Order to form a more perfect Union......so on and so forth,"
Question #1 WHAT Perfect Union truly exists in the U.S.?
Question #2 WHAT REAL and Tangible JUSTICE exists in the U.S.?
Question #3 What REAL Domestic Tranquility TRULY exist within the U.S.?
Question #4 In what context is this "Common Defence" applied when the rest of the world view the U.S. as a Posse riding in and trying to FORCE its ideologies, etc, upon those who want to live THEIR own and have their Ideas?
Question #5 What "General Welfare" is there when ONLY those can truly afford it actually get it?
Question #6 " Liberty and Prosperity," for whom?
Imo, the U.S. of Absurdity has a system of Government that works ONLY for those who can reap the benefits of it for themselves and themselves ALONE.
Any TRULY Democratic form of Government MUST be based solely upon the following Tenets, i.e. A Government OF the PEOPLE, For the People and BY the People, should that NOT be so?

Totally agree with you. We made a mess of it. I’m concerned neither party is up to fixing it soon

3

To bond people by making sure everybody plays by the same rules.
To protect us from sociopaths, criminals and foreign Invaders.
To pool our resources to guarantee education, health care, and other essential services.
To keep our water and air clean, our drugs, food and workplaces (among other things) safe.
Provide lots of other miscellaneous things we all take for granted. The list is an extensive one.
(Libertarians are either naive, insane, or predatory a-holes, btw.)

0

Exactly what the preamble says: impart justice, insure domestic tranquillity, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure liberty to ourselves and our future generations.

How would you define “general welfare” or “domestic tranquility.”? Seems like there isn’t a lot of either nowadays

@Canndue changing your question, which was clearly answered, after the fact, is a sleazy way to fish for points.

@Mofo1953 simply trying to move conversation forward. I’m asking for your interpretation of the preamble, if you don’t want to dig further, no problem. But please chill on the accusations...

@Canndue no accusation, you did change the original question.

2

We live in a world that the authors of the Constitution could hardly have imagined. The Constitution and Bill of Rights go only so far. Laws, judicial rulings, and administrative regulations have evolved, imperfectly, to keep pace with the changes in society.

Giant corporations wield more power than many nations do, and they do so in their own narrow interests, which often run counter to the health, safety, and long-term interests of society as a whole. Government is the only entity with enough power to regulate these behemoth corporations and prevent them from causing damage to society and the environment. One of the greatest problems in the U.S. today is the control (you might say stranglehold) that private, wealthy interests have on the government that is supposed to be regulating them.

Totally agree with you. Govt should be in the interest of citizens primarily. I don’t care what citizens United says, corporations are not citizens

And this is the VERY REASON why the US is Authoritaran. That very explanation about the big corporations.

An authoritarian country is run by either a man or a group of individuals who were not constitutionally elected by the people.

Someone recently told me this isn’t the case because the US has elections. Yes. And same with The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, although they both had only one LEGAL political party.

Great insight. Thanks.

1

I would like to add to these good comments. Government should provide balance between the other powerful force: Big Business. Our capitalistic country is a balance between government and big money.When we are out of balance, we are in trouble. When big business gets out of hand bad things happen. So regulations are needed. That's tricky because the economy is affected when the balance is upset.

While we're at it It would like to address another issue that so many people are not aware of: our food.
I remember when there was a shift in farming. Big business came in and overtook the farming industry ousting the smaller family farms. Then food production became prey to cheaper, unhealthy technology...
more pesticides, farm animals becoming things instead of living creatures...being made sick, tortured, gaseous and detrimental to our environment. Then there came too many processed food companies competing for our dollars. AND THEN CAME MONSANTO the masters of pesticides...fooling us by claiming that they had science on their side with those GMO's that create seeds that absorb lots of GLYPHOSATE to once and for all kill bugs and weeds...giving us now super bugs and super weeds and lots and lots of CANCER. If the workers in the fields get cancer from dealing closely with this, what do you think happens to us over time eating this abomination? This is not science; this is technology...bad technology, dangerous technology...and our people in government are fooled by them. Bill Gates says this is the answer to world hunger. He is in bed with Monsanto. Monsanto destroyed the agriculture on Paraguay, farmers in India had an epidemic of farmer's suicides due to Monsanto's bullying. There are countries that have outlawed Monsanto. Monsanto has been sued and fined millions due to their weed killing product, ROUNDUP, but you still see it on the shelves in stores and they advertise it on TV. It causes cancer. Monsanto is very rich. I only buy organic food and will not eat in a restaurant unless the food is organic. That is not easy. As far as it being more expensive, I would rather eat less and stay healthy. Socially, it creates a problem. But that's the price I pay to stay healthy. In the meantime, our government supports Monsanto and now Biden has appointed the wrong man to be Secretary of Agriculture. I love Biden, but he is not perfect and is naive about all of this as are the majority. If you research this bear in mind that it is rampant that big companies dummy up research findings. They lie for the dollar. But those court cases where people are awarded millions...that doesn't lie.

I think we were posting at the same time, with some of the same thoughts!

I agree with what you say about Monsanto too!

Monsanto boycott app

[google.com]

I agree with you, the govt has the duty to protect our food and water supplies. Biden, like Obama are decent men, but neoliberals, people are not their prime concern.

All true, and applicable of course to all huge mega-corporations. We need BIGGER government, not smaller. HIGHER taxes, not lower. Republicans have it exactly wrong.

2

First, there should not be so many road blocks for people to qualify for healthcare, education, good infrastructure and justice...which needs to be handled by a government. Farming these things out to ‘for profit’ individuals and cooperations will not support a fair and balanced society! Providing decent healthcare, basic education and keeping infrastructure in good working order and not having a militarized justice system, should all be simplified to a basic application. All the different angles to laws and regulations has not given us more security, safety or happiness...at least not by the millions of guns this one Country owns for protection, by it’s citizens!

It seems that we have become more barbaric, than the advanced civilization, that we are touting ourselves to be!

I doubt it could be said much better ( that may because I agree 100%). Now we will need to discuss ways to get there 😉

1

Article I, Section 8 defines the powers of the Congress and thus the role of the government.

Seems like it discusses The Who and how, but not necessarily the what...

How would you address domestic tranquility and general welfare? Such as how @FreedomPath mentioned?

@Canndue As to the first, it is largely left to the states except "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions", and as to the second Madison wrote about it at length and much more eloquently than I, particularly in Federalist #45.

@jeshuey consider this an academic exercise, forget the documents, I’m interested in you personal opinion

@jeshuey ...’militia to execute laws,’ does not have the ring of tranquility to it? Sounds like there is a lot of anger to start with...why? Would the ‘militia’ bring tranquility or find the need to shoot people? Wouldn’t that just repress ‘anger,’ that will be forced to show up somewhere else?

@Canndue My personal opinion is The Republic and its people would be better off if we paid closer attention to the documents.

@jeshuey how is that working for us now? How often do you hear people in the news, claiming some ‘right,’ laid out in our constitution? Especially, when they have to shoot someone! Police and citizen alike...say, ‘they felt in danger!’ It is the same as those people who quote the Bible to back up their position on something! Laws are not working for us at this moment! Trump has spent the past 4 yrs of his presidency, being nearly ‘perfectly lawless!’ Forget, the lowly citizen...that nearly 3 million are incarcerated now.

@Freedompath Reread my comment. It's not working because we stopped doing it.

@jeshuey interesting, if that were true, then this could all be fixed by the courts? Not convinced the trump justices are onboard for that. Don’t forget, the right wing gave us citizens United (patriot act, etc)

@Canndue And the left wing distorted the Welfare and Commerce Clauses with the blessing of FDR justices. The problem is simply that the more power ceded to government the more likely it is to be abused. Of course neither side cares or notices until the other side does something they don't like.

@jeshuey yeah , but there is a welfare clause in the preamble. 🤔 Wonder what they meant by that. Unfortunately the politics is leading society instead of being driven by by it. The big corps don’t fear either party because they are really the same.

@Canndue Madison, Federalist 45, explained it thoroughly. He should know, he wrote it.

@jeshuey your gonna make me read the damn federalist papers , aren’t you 🤔, thanks for the lead...

@jeshuey wow, #45 that reads like Japanese stereo instructions. Could remove 99% of the words and not change the meaning. If health care is determined to be a right, #45 becomes moot

@jeshuey Sorry but that's simplistic bs.

5

I will quote Lincoln here:

"The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves—in their separate, and individual capacities."

I like that, but it is rather open ended. Lots of room for interpretation.
He also said “of the people, by the people, for the people.”.

Unfortunately we got “ of the corporation, by the corporation, for the corporations “

@Canndue Right on! The way the Constitution is written is so noble and idealistic because it only ever comes down to money and power but that doesn't read well so they had to make it sound more utopian so it would sell.

@Sgt_Spanky agreed, but what are your personal thoughts about the role of govt?

@Canndue Ideally, to assist in the smooth functioning of a land and its people, to use taxes responsibly, to protect against enemies foreign or domestic, to be intolerant of corruption and to make decisions that benefit the greater good of society rather than just the special interests of the wealthiest class only.

In a nutshell; to be everything our government is not.

@Sgt_Spanky should the govt provide universal health care? What about public education, should it stop at high school?

@Canndue You're trying to determine if I'm a progressive. I am. Yes, I think healthcare should be provided universally thru taxes. The private healthcare system is a joke easily abused by the greed of the Insurance companies. Tying our healthcare to our employers is all well and good while employed but what happens if, say, a pandemic hits and you lose your employer coverage or you get fired then where are you? Education should also be covered thru taxes because it's an investment in the country's future. Graduates shouldn't be encumbered with a mountain of debt when they're just starting out.

Republicans like to bitch and whine that it's just a bigger tax bill when they're actually buying something valuable with that money.

@Sgt_Spanky you laid it out nicely. ( I’m also progressive) but interested in different opinions as well. Mostly out to spike conversation other than Jesus bashing. I think secondary education should be free, but not to everyone, ie must demonstrate ability.

@Canndue We used to have a fairly representative community of conservatives here but they seem to have mostly migrated to slug.com. I suppose there's some left but we don't hear from them as much anymore.

@Sgt_Spanky I don’t mind conservatives if they voice their opinion respectfully. Have seen a couple of whackos on here though...

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