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Made a post about herd immunity (linked [agnostic.com] ). Just some further thoughts and thanks to all who provided feedback.
Way before covid I was concerned about flu "vaxs", arguing they should not be called vaccines as immunity is not provided against the influenza virus. These covid medicines are very similar to flu vaxs in that way, immunity is not provided. So it seems the definition of "vaccine" has been watered down somewhat in recent times.
This is all fine until you talk attaining herd immunity via vaccination. Fine if we use the old/ true definition of vaccinations providing immunity. But when they do not provide immunity, is not attaining herd immunity through a "vaccination program" a bit of an unrealistic pipe dream as the vaxs don't provide full immunity?

Ed Don't get me wrong here. I am not saying these medicines are not beneficial in combating these viruses. What I am saying is because they do not provide immunity, to start talking attaining herd immunity via using them is delusional.
Just because we call them vaccines doesn't mean they are.

powder 8 June 14
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We use words the general population can comprehend. Were education better, it would be unnecessary to use misleading terms. Agree there is no such thing as herd immunity via vaccines, inoculations, or any other artificial means. Immunity is genetic. Now THERE is where we could be concentrating our effort, no?

@powder Which proves my point. No “herd immunity”.

@powder Yes, as long as the gene was not recessive. IMO “immunity” would be permanent, unlike flu or Covid-19 inoculations. The word “vaccine” is used for every kind of inoculation, as well as vaccination, because the public does not generally understand the difference...not that medicine has even TRIED to educate people, nor have schools. My Smallpox VACCINATION provided permanent immunity, my flu inoculation sometimes provides temporary immunity from the projected strains of flu virus this year. There WILL be never-ending inoculations for Covid-19, and perhaps all its new variants, but we do not know yet how long our current inoculation will last, nor how effective it will be against variants. Yesterday, I read that, in China, new cases are making people sicker, faster than the original. I do not foresee it being “safe” in my lifetime, especially with 71% of my local population refusing to be inoculated. I would consider moving to Vermont, but it gets too damn cold there in winter.

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I'm more focussed on how I can get Pfizer rather than AstraZeneca, which is difficult because while Australia mostly managed the lockdown last year and this year, they have totally fucked up the vaccination program. For the record, I'm not expecting any vaccine to give anything like 100% protection, and I don't think anyone should. This thing keeps mutating.

@powder more like, reduce social interaction, minimise spread, infection and death, hope virus dissipates (some do) and hope for vaccine, in concert with mask wearing. With slip ups, it worked, but we need the right vaccine, and Australia does what Australia always does under Liberal governments: hold back, wait for overseas to do it, and then do it half-assed.

@David1955 Sorry Oz isn’t handling vaccination well. I think both Moderna and Pfizer are preferable to Astra Zeneca.

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They have changed the definitions of 'vaccine' and 'herd immunity'.

BDair Level 8 June 14, 2021

A genomic therapy that does not 'prevent' infection with or spread of a virus, can not confer herd immunity.

Doctors that vaccinate children, but encourage 'informed consent' are labled as 'anti-vaxxers' and have their licenses revoked. Anyone that is the the least bit critical of the vaccine protocols is considerered anti-vax, and has their Youtube or Twitter channels shut down, even when they are quoting statistics directly from the CDC or published peer reviewed studies. We are living in an Orwellian world.

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Here we go once again, someone else trying to 'emulate' the Nay-sayer and Pessimist from down in the Cabbage Patch Kids country of Victoria, Australia.
Nice attempt @powder,but it WILL take decades before you ever hope to attain his abilities at creating sheer and unadulterated BOREDOM in those who mistakenly read his postings, etc.
Fyi, AND on the 2nd/3rd, maybe it's the Umpteenth time around, Vaccinations DO NOT mean AUTOMATIC Immunity, they , instead, STIMULATE the Auto-Immune system of the body to create Anti-bodies to that specific Infective Agent, the Auto-Immune system then sets about recording and REMEMBERING How to make those Anti-bodies in cases when FUTURE infection occur.
They ARE VACCINES because they STIMULATE the Auto-Immune System to CREATE a Defense System specific to EACH Infective Agent they, the Vaccines, are DESIGNED to combat VIA the Auto-Immune System of the Human Body.
Imo, it IS such a crying shame and terrible PITY, that one who CLAIMS to be so wise and knowledgeable knows so very little yet still insists upon shooting his mouth off like a complete and total Cretin.

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The following photo may help you understand the difference between vaccination & immunisation. Personally I didn't find it helpful.

The Israeli claim that vaccination results in a reduction in the quantity & quality of covid viruses in the throat which then resulted in a reduction in the spread of the virus by breath bourne virus does sound a logical explanation of the dramatic reduction of cases in that country. It also makes a very good case for why masks should be worn. [virusncov.com]

@powder your response does not help my understanding any more than does the Australian Governments difference between vaccination & immunisation. I'm not even clear that polio, smallpox, rubella etc. vaccinations actually prevent you from getting the diseases or merely reduce infection to the level of a minor headache!

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They are vaccines. You are making an issue that is of no concern.

@powder YOU are Philosophising, LOL.
Imo, you would NOT know philosophical thought and thinking even if it got up\, bit you and then introduced itself.

@Triphid You are a joke. I raught a course in philosophy at the college level for 5 years. Your attempt to make an issue out of one that does not exist is not philosophy. it is a poor attempt at useless glass bead gamingl.

@wordywalt "He who seeks to portray himself as a Philosopher and a Teacher of the same almost always make the biggest Fool of himself bar none." William Anthony, PhD (Philosophy), 2019

@Triphid You are more interested in making domination pooints than in carrying on a real dialogue. Give it a rest, turkey.

@wordywalt Is THAT the best you manage when confronted with a person who TRULY knows a lot more than you do?
imo, YOU REAALY should wear a safety helmet when riding that Scooter of yours, you CAN"T really afford any more loss of brain cells than you have already suffered from.

@Triphid Whoevere this william Anthony is, it is obvious that he has little understanding of what teaching and philosophy are. Real eaching is helping the student to acquire the knowledge and skills to undertake and pursue critical analysis of facts, assertions, and premises and assumptions so that the student can make effecive and rational decisions. It is not indoctrination. Those are very similar goals of philosophy.

@wordywalt Fyi. William Anthony holds Doctorate Degrees in both Philosophy and Psychology, Bachelor Degrees in Language ( the Ancient ones such as Aramaic, Greek, Babylonian, Latin and more besides), Ancient History, Modern History, Arts and Sciences, such as Renaissance and Post- Renaissance Art and Sculpture, Teaching both Literacy and Numeracy to children under the ages of 12-14 years, is a well respected and renowned Child and Youth Crisis Counsellor and Child and Youth Psychologist, has 7 Certificates in Nursing, INCLUDING a Certificate as a Mid-Wife.
And last but not least holds a Level 1 Certification as a Paramedic also.

@Triphid So? I do not see how he could then make the statement about being a ttacher and a philosopher. Socrates considred himself to be a teacher.

@wordywalt Judging purely by your attempts, poor , very poor imo btw, at spelling such words as 'teacher' ( you spelled/wrote as ttacher btw) and 'considered' (which you spelled/wrote as being "considred" ) I'm beginning to have severe doubts regard your capacities/abilities as an Educator at all.
Aristotle WAS considered as being a Great Teacher, it is said that he even taught Alexander the Great, Socrates WAS a renowned Philosopher and Educator, as were Plato, etc, etc, as well.
As for William Anthony, he spent and still does, though totally voluntarily these days, teaching in Schools, assisting in Training Mid-Wives, teaching First Aid, working on Accident and Emergency Rescue Teams INCLUDING the New South Wales State Emergency Service just mention a few.
But, be not daunted, I can and will find the time to assist even you with your Literacy problems and do so completely FREE of Charge.

@Triphid My abi;lity to spell is high. My vision and digital dexterity are low at the age of 84. Your agbisive tendencies are repulsive.

@wordywalt Agbusive tendencies, what precisely are agbusive tendencies?
And, IF you meant ABUSIVE tendencies, please explain what were so 'abusive' towards you in my comments then.

@Triphid When you resort to derogatory and/or demaining commentys to try to respomnd to a genuine response in a discussion, you are being verbally abusive. If you do not understand that, you have a problem.

@wordywalt I'm not certain as to how those of you in the United States of Absurdity view, describe, understand, etc, etc, what is Demeaning ,Derogatory, abusive ( verbally or otherwise) but it most assured is not viewed that way here in Australia where we are, imo, oft times more educated in literacy, grammar and things of a similar nature than, imo, you appear to be.
Also and unlike Americans we DO NOT seek out Legal Litigations at the mere drop of a hat so to speak, we never have and, hopefully, never will stoop so low imo.

@Triphid You never deal with an issue directly. You either attack the person who disgrees with you or you change the subject. That tends to say that you cannot offer any rational support for the position you take.

@wordywalt D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. @wordywalt, D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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No vaccine is 100% effective, not does it need to be to have public health value.

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You are assuming that the definition of a vaccine is something that provides 100% immunity. Where is your support for using such a definition?

@powder Golden Staph, did NOT mutate it developed a resistance to most Antibiotics used in every day medical treatments, as have numerous other bacterial infective agents, etc, etc.
This 'resistance was primarily caused by the OVER-usage of Antibiotics by Doctors issuing prescriptions for them like Dealers at a Casino dealing cards from the deck.
Once, antibiotics were seen as the Panacea, the Magic Bullet, the Cure All of the world of medicine BUT over usage and over prescribing when unnecessary led to the bacteria, etc, developing the resistances they now have, THEY did NOT merely mutate as do viruses when given the chance, they just adapt and develop a resistance instead.
Hence, even stronger, newer, more potent antibiotics have had to be developed to TRY to combat the grave errors made that brought this resistance into being.
@powder, MAY I, please, SUGGEST that you DO TRY as hard as you are able to RESEARCH first, then Engage Brain, etc, BEFORE setting fingers to keyboard/keypad in future.

@powder Yes, the bacteria, etc, DEVELOP a resistance to the EFFECTS of Antibiotics upon them, it is NOT a mutation/alteration, etc, to their cell or gene structure btw, it is a resistance, nothing more sinister, nothing less sinister BUT it is a problem CAUSED by Humans being over-dependent and over-using antibiotic drugs in the last 50+ years or so.
Btw, there IS this little icon on your computer screen, and probably available on your i-phone, etc, etc, as well.
It IS used to HELP you NAVIGATE your way into Search Engine Facilities such as Google, etc, etc, I sincerely suggest that you TRY using it from time to time.
There IS a much LARGER world outside of the Land that was once known as Bjelke-Petersen Country and the Land of the Fitzgerald Enquiry.

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Are you an anti vacciner?

@powder "Education" - "Other." Make one kind of curious as to your TRUE educational status does it NOT?

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