That you did!

@Donotbelieve Thank you. I tried.

@Donotbelieve, @Blindbird Thanks.

These guys have got MY dander up. That's for sure.

@Donotbelieve haha. I too have been making liberal use of the block button on this thread.

@Blindbird Hope I wasn't too bossy or preachy with this. I was just trying to imagine if I had a daughter and what I would say to her.

Women are well aware,thank you. Again I will state "if you wouldn't caution your sons against a certain behaviour, don't lay that extra weight on your daughters". I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that you,too,have drank the paternalist kool-aid.

@kmdskit3 not bossy or preachy but its pretty obvious that you've bought into the "women are helpless and must be extra scared of everything all the time" trope. Do you not see your bias here? You're literally arguing that women MUST be more fearful, more cautious because we're just sooooo much more vulnerable. It's like you've completely missed the point.

@Blindbird Don't think I missed your point. Don't want to put constraints on women. Do you not think my comparison to African American males being cautious around cops is valid? If so why not? "...women are helpless and must be extra scared all the time" , "women MUST be more fearful" and "we're just sooooo much more vulnerable" all go a great deal farther than anything I said.

@kmdskit3 nope. I'm exaggerating for effect because you aren't seeing your bias here. Look at the rest of the comments. Do you see women saying "oh no the dangers are so very real". No instead you've got men and ONLY men perpetuating this myth. If all the dangers we're warned about are so real don't you think women would be on here telling me I'm crazy and sharing their stories? I do. But I don't see that. This sir, is mansplaining at its finest. Men telling women that their experiences as women are invalid and wrong and "we just don't know better". Wake up and smell the coffee buddy.

@Blindbird uummm, i see about everyother post from women telling yu the dangers are real, they teach their daughters to be aware, hey stay aware. You are willfully not seeing it, everyone is concerned for hhou/about you...

As do some men, hence my comment about not putting more pressure on women than men about personal safety. Also yet ANOTHER man telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. Love how having a penis gives y'all all the answers.

It's not a penis that helps, it's the ability to reason. Most women are physically weaker than most men, and in our jungle of a world that makes them a more tempting target. Of course if the woman is wise enough to carry a concealed weapon, that might move the odds in her favor.

Horseshit. If you're talking a trip to India or Pakistan, sure, there are extra dangers for women because the society there is deeply misogynistic. As others on here have , you have completely missed the point. What I am saying is that these "terrible dangers" that lurk for women who do things and go places where they "shouldn't" are mostly illusory. It's as false as the " dangerous black man" trope. Its lies we've been told our entire lives to keep us scared and quiet and separate. You've drank the kool-aid and you don't even see it. You just ASSUME its true because thats what you've been told.

@Blindbird Ive drank the kool aid? Ive been a guy my entire life. Heard how guys talk, seen how they act when drunk. Know gals who have been roofied. Know ones that have been raped. Guess how many guys I know that I can say that of? You speak of your own experience only, as though that negates all the bad shit that happens to others. It's a very ignorant way to see the world.

@MrBrightSide and I've been a woman my entire life and I know for a fact that raising women to be fearful and afraid of making their own decisions and yes, mistakes turns them into emotional cripples. Furthermore I'll point out that the sort of behaviour you're describing is best curbed by attending to the minds and actions of the PERPETRATORS and not the victims.

@MrBrightSide You hang around with some real winners! One thing you should do, instead of putting down a woman standing up for herself, is if you witness guys behaving the way you describe, call them on it! Stop it! I've been a guy my entire life, also! Lived on the streets for a time. Did a stint in the Navy. Worked carnivals for 5 yrs. Been back & forth across this country & Canada a few times & probably have a few more years under my belt than you do, & one of the reasons that guys will even try any of that shit at all is because they are too often either patted on the back for it or at the least, tolerated! That is the biggest problem. Men need to become actual adult men! Temporary end of rant!

@phxbillcee I don't recall saying I hung out with those type ? nor do I recall putting her down? Disagreeing and putting down her outlook and this topic, maybe. Rest of it I agree with, people in general need to stop in if they see someone being harassed and a lot of our population would be better off if they matured.

@phxbillcee, @Blindbird As far as tending to the perpetrators, that is easier said than done. We don't know who someone is by just looking at them and people can easily hide bad intentions. All we can do is try to advise caution to our loved ones and steer them away from potentially bad situations. I see nothing wrong with that.

@MrBrightSide and yet you stated that you have repeatedly seen and heard those behaviours/statements from other men. As was pointed out, the most effective way to curb that sort of thing is calling out and condemning those who do or say such things. Maybe if they hear other men tell them its wrong they'll listen since y'all don't seem to put much stock in what women have to say.

Right? Fuck that shit.

Again no. The facts and statistics DON'T bear you out on this one. Men can be and are raped at comparable rates to women. It's simply that those crimes tended to go unreported for ages because men were embarrassed to admit it happened to them. The actual dangers posed to men and women are basically the same. You've been TOLD that women are more vulnerable and you believe it but it's just not true. Again I will point out that there are NO women on here telling me that I'm wrong. Only guys who think they "know better".

Futhermore, we MAKE the world we want. We are not helpless pawns forced to suffer circumstance. If I don't like something I'm damn sure going yo change it or die trying.

Edit :apparently I was mistaken about rates of male rape victims. Its one in 71 men vs one in 6 women.

@sarahjustme it is fact that men commit more violent acts but it's NOT fact that women are in more danger from men than other men are. Again I'm not saying the world isn't a dangerous place, I'm saying stop telling women they're less capable of navigating that world than men are. Honestly we've been surviving their violence for millennia we're probably better equipped to survive it than other men tbh.

The ones who found out for sure can't post. They're in the hospital or dead.

@doug6352 Riiiigggght. One gets out of the hospital eventually. Are you under the impression that women just die when they're raped or assaulted? Again. What exactly makes you an expert on what it's like to live as a woman or know much of anything about what it's like?

@doug6352 Really? Do you have any facts to back that up? Or are you just being nasty?

@sarahjustme I am terribly sorry that those things happened to you. It is awful and inexcusable. I am going to point out that there wasn't much you could have done to prevent those attacks short of having a firearm loaded and at hand to run off your attacker. You didn't DO anything to make yourself a victim. The rapists targeted you for whatever their twisted reasons may have been.

The constant warnings to women always seem to be centered around the womens "risky behaviour" but it's not about what we do or don't do( I do advocate EVERYONE learning self defense btw). And that's where this women must do this, that or the other to prevent becoming victims gets it wrong, I think.

@sarahjustme. I don't disagree with you. In my experience home and family are not necessarily safe. The same is true for millions of others like me. If we're not safe at home and we're not safe going out, why not just pick whichever nonsafe option appeals to us most? Sadly, it doesn't change the odds much.

@sarahjustme no but it does mean that the odds are roughly the same no matter where I go. Knowing that, I'll go where I want and do what I want. Taking reasonable precautions while not hobbling myself with constant second guessing.

@sarahjustme that's a fair assesment.

Yes very much this. It's something I come across in my female friends often. They were never allowed to take risks or responsibility for themselves when they were young and now as adults they're at a loss for how to do so.

We can talk statistics, but what would be the method of arriving at those statistical conclusions?

Thank you.

@DZhukovin Then you come up with a rationale & facts for your defeatist & condescending attitude!

@DZhukovin here's a decent jumping off point. Apparently my information about rates of male victimization was way off but the stats on who perpetrates these acts are valid.[ncadv.org]

@Blindbird You male attack stats were a little off but the whole post isn't ..

The other problem with male rape is less likely to be reported .. often male kids messed with never came forward. If so it would be likely 20 / 30 yrs later ... So you may well be more right than you imagine!! Bit of grey area in some respects.

Jeff is bang on

@Nickbeee he is indeed. I did have childhood assaults in mind. It's sad how many people I know who were abused that way and there doesn't seem to be much of a gender difference in who it's happened to.

How so? I would respond but I find your criticism nebulous at best.

WTF!!! She shouldn't make her own decisions?!?! That's her point! What country do you live in? Seriously, 'cause it doesn't sound like Amerika to me!

Have you ever considered that perhaps you haven't been attacked because people aren't as violent as we've been led to believe? I am aware of the extra danger posed to transfolk and don't mean to downplay that AT ALL.

The thing is though that all the people I've been taught to fear turned out to be just people. It seems to mostly those in some sort of authoritative role who are most likely to use violence on someone who doesn't follow their norms. What if making us afraid of each other is just another form of that control?

I agree that women need to be confident & need to know how to protect themselves if necessary. I do think that much of the "predator/prey" dynamic you mentioned is strengthened & perpetuated by not taking a firmer stance against those that perpetrate it! When so-called joking about rape, roofies, force, or the like comes up in a male gathering it should be slapped down as disgusting, immature & unacceptable! This method has, until the recent upsurge, help stem overt racism in most social type settings. Has it rid us of it. No, but it has made it unacceptable & "not ok" which is a step in the right direction.

@phxbillcee Spot on @phxbillcee

@Blindbird Wrong place at the wrong time is all it really takes. Making it obvious that you have the 'wrong' sexuality or gender identity doesn't help. In most cases, I think it's just the bad luck of running into an individual (or a group) that's looking for an excuse to be violent towards someone. You being different gives them the excuse that they need.

There was an article on PinkNews the other day about a gay lad who got beaten to a pulp by a gang of men for being gay. This was in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Cue a load of aggression in the comments about how backward Northern Ireland is. It isn't. I find Belfast remarkably progressive and accepting. It's largely populated with people who can remember the violence of 'the troubles', and who've had enough of it. But like everywhere else, it has its share of bigoted thugs. You don't have to look hard to find examples of violent hate crime against LGBT people in Brighton, supposedly the LGBT capital of the UK.

Most people aren't violent. Some are. It's about avoiding the ones who are, or at least avoiding making yourself an obvious target if you encounter them.

@NicoleCadmium agreed. Its also IMO about being capable of self defense. Whether thats fighting, running away whatever it takes to come out of one of those bad luck situations unharmed. I think people who are capable of looking out for themselves are the safest people to BE. You can't always count on a saviour or stroke of good luck but You're always there with yourself.

The point is that you've cautioned them BOTH. I'm not claiming dangers don't exist. I am saying that they're greatly exaggerated when teaching women what to do or not do. I'd say as parent , you did the best thing by empowering both of them to be aware of danger and capable of self defense.

I feel for your friend and I wonder what the real risk she would be taking by doing what she wants would be? I have a lot of women friends who are afraid to go places by themselves or do certain things because they've been told it's unsafe their entire lives. Yet myself and other women do those things and go those places and we come to no harm. These are the things that made me doubt what I'd been told and what all women hear so much.

@Blindbird At that time we had a few attempted sexual assaults on the beach, It is much better now, we have about 2 miles where many of us walk regularly and keep that stretch of beach watched. It is good really , get to chat to people you don't see else where, we also lobbied for it to be a leash free dog area, so lots of friendly dogs running around.

Wow. When YOU think it is appropriate. Because THEY are women. And seemingly unable to figure shit out for themselves. Yep, that is sexist.

@sarahjustme Perhaps it is just the wording. I guess I read a bit more into it, the language coupled with not caring about how the daughter and wife feel. Does not sound very egalitarian.

And that is more than fair. As @ArturoS pointed out, infantilizing adults creates people who live in fear, waiting to be victimized and are consequently victimised more often. To really become self sufficient we have to learn what is an acceptable vs. Non acceptable risk.

Women are dissuaded from taking risks, told point blank or led to believe that they are too fragile to attempt it. As a consequence many of us don't learn to care for and protect ourselves. We all know how helicoptor parenting affects children.

The thing is that women have been helicoptered to death for ages. It's mostly just my opinion but I suspect it's where a lot of "difference of the sexes" originates. We let Billy takes risks because we know he needs that for his personal growth but not Betty,she could get hurt!

@Blindbird again, I am in full agreeance. I was raised by a tough as nails, 5' foot tall piece of Kentucky dynamite. My mother has chewed out Marines and bikers and got respect because of it. It of course was because of her upbringing that she fears none and expects respect. Who wouldn't respect a lady on a fourwheeler chasing bears off her property just after the winter thaw? You think I would need to worry about her? Of fucking course I do and I chastise her now 68 year old ass when she pulls this shit. Having a set of imaginary balls bigger than any man won't stop a hungry, 7 foot, 500 pound bear from decimating the only mother I'll ever have. And because I love her I will still air my opinion on this knowing she's still going to do it so she'll still have eggs to go with her bacon and coffee the next morning. The thing is she knows I love and care for her well being and that, at the end of the day, is all that matters.
If people that aren't close to you peeve you by saying these type things....fuck'em! But if they are friends and family it's out of love and caring for your well being....but by all means, blaze your path regardless.

@SinCityHeathen again we are in agreance. To be fair a 6'8 body builder would be in deep shit with that same bear though. Just sayin'.

And yes warnings from those I know care about me are listened to and heeded. My post is more about the general attitude that women are too fragile to take risks in their lives. Treating people as though they're made of glass, unsurprisingly creates people who break easily. One jas to have some (justifiable) trust in ones ability to function as an individual to accomplish anything. I feel many women are done a great disservice by being taught that they're just naturally less capable than men.

@SinCityHeathen as I read your post, it brings to mind my own children, admonishing me for certain behaviours. I noticed that, in spite of their concerned voice...it makes me question my own abilities. 'Is there really something that I am not seeing here', etc? Then, i must bring myself back into alignment and see if indeed I am going beyond by abilities? Their caution needs to be carefully presented, as it can plant 'fear,' in a person's mind that makes them hypersensitive, which can set-up subconscious doubt, in their ability to do certain things!! And, I have also detected a realization from my children that I am aging and that seems limiting, in their eyes! EVEN, as they have evidence of my own clear focus...when I do anything!