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Interesting discussion of the war and long term prospects. This was fun: "Moreover, the allies discovered, apparently to their surprise, that most Asian, African, Middle Eastern, and Latin American countries are unwilling to join the anti-Moscow campaign. Such is the price paid by Western nations, especially America, for past hypocrisy, arrogance, and cruelty, epitomized by the disastrous experience of Washington’s last two decades of promiscuous war-making. The dissenters are providing a new market for Russian exports, such as oil. Although few countries will challenge allied sanctions directly, opportunities for Russian evasion will increase over the long-term." Americans may buy the "we're fighting for freedom twaddle," the rest of the world knows better.
What Happens If Ukraine Fatigue Sets In?
by Doug Bandow Posted on June 20, 2022: [original.antiwar.com]

Druvius 8 June 20
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Support for Putin by the left is driven by Anti-Americanism. According to them, Russia invaded Ukraine, not to expand its own power and its borders, but to fight against American tyranny. The mindset is, the only imperialism that exists is American and Russia is forced to fight that. Kremlin’s brutal tactics and imperialist aggression against Ukraine, a much smaller sovereign nation, is entirely America's fault.

barjoe Level 9 June 20, 2022

I don't think that's an accurate representation. Let's see your supporting evidence.

@LovinLarge Then what is your explanation for progressive people's support for the Russian Federation? I just pulled that right out of their playbook. Apologists for Putin in disguise as antiwar activists..

@barjoe My explanation isn't relevant until you've substantiated your factual allegations, and reference to a nonexistent playbook is nothing but a dodge. None of what you wrote is true, it's merely your inability to objectively assign any responsibility to your own country because that happens to be where you're from. And the reason that's an issue for me is because denying how we got to where we are is only going to further escalate the conflict which is not in anyone's interest. Accepting our role in this war is not support for Putin or the Russian Federation.

@LovinLarge None of the Russian apologists on the left or the right, expected this to be a long drawn out war. It's been four months. The far right admires Putin because he has a homophobic and misogynistic world view and because he supported and helped elect Donald Fucking Trump. Some on the left support him because they hate America and some are gullible enough to believe his propaganda: 'Ukraine should be part of Russia, and that the Ukranians are all Nazis'. These are my opinion based on what I see and what I read. No amount of links or footnotes posted by me can change anyone's mind or be sufficient evidence to satisfy them.

@barjoe An opinion is only as valid as the facts upon which it is based. You refuse to provide any supporting facts and your opinion should be given zero credibility for that reason. But accusing a particular demographic of hating America without supporting the accusation in any way is particularly offensive. American warmongers like yourself are helping escalate the violence in Ukraine in order to benefit the US and that is unconscionable.

@LovinLarge What else could possibly be there motivation for supporting a totalitarian dictatorship other than to stick it to America? If you don't like what I say, good. Don't demand that I give you "facts". Your "facts" won't make me have any sympathy for Russia either.

@barjoe Supporting your position with evidence has nothing to do with me, it has to do with your own credibility.

Viewing the situation objectively is in fact the opposite of supporting Putin. The US played a role in inciting this war by encouraging Ukraine to enter NATO and sending reinforcements to Ukraine before the invasion. I have not heard anyone say Putin's invasion was justified. We pacifists are horrified by the carnage in Ukraine and diplomacy is the best way to end it. Diplomacy won't work if anyone is going to pretend that they didn't play a role in getting us to where we are today.

The Russian Federation is an independent country that can adopt any type of government it wants although my understanding is that Putin was repeatedly elected democratically. One of the problems in assessing this situation has to do with the accuracy of the information available to us. I am suspicious of him because of his affiliation with Trump, but I know it wouldn't have lasted because Trump's relationships never do.

We pacifist progressives don't hate America but oppose some of its policies, foreign and domestic. Only Russia knows its reason(s) for invading Ukraine. America is not the only bastion of imperialism and no one thinks that. America played a role in this war but no one entirely faults it. Ukraine is an independent country with a Nazi contingent that had a right not to be invaded by Russia. You've invented contrary claims and assigned them to pacifists to help justify the US involvement in this war. Your claims are unfounded and your viewpoint inflammatory.

@LovinLarge Inflammatory? All my opinions are Inflammatory. Putin took over the country in a bloodless coup and there hasn't been one free election since. NATO was founded as an adversary to Russia. Putin tried to weasel into NATO 20 years ago which would've effectively destroyed it. That has been his goal all along and if Trump had won it would've come to fruition. Their idea of diplomacy is to allow Russia to just walk in. Give up Donetsk and Lugansk, and there constitution to say they'll never join NATO. Make Ukraine sign a neutrality agreement in their constitution. Have Zelensky step down so they can install a Russian puppet government. Ukraine will have to surrender to have any of that happen. We shall see how this conflict works out. I think Russia might blink before Ukraine does.

@barjoe Anyone can claim anything is true. Evidence is what distinguishes fact from fiction. Your unwillingness to support your factual allegations with supporting evidence puts them in the same category as unsupported religious claims in my view. Say what you will but unsubstantiated attacks on progressives will always draw a response from me. I want the best possible outcome of this conflict for everyone but not everyone can say that.

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“Moreover, the allies discovered, apparently to their surprise, that most Asian, African, Middle Eastern, and Latin American countries are unwilling to join the anti-Moscow campaign.”

Most? Really? Such a stance was not demonstrated in the result of UN General Assembly Resolution ES-11/1 in March where 141 countries voted in favor of the resolution condemning Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and demanded immediate withdrawal, and only five nations voted against it, while just 35 abstained.

[en.wikipedia.org]

LOL. Facts don't matter if the UN says otherwise! No, only the US and its allies are buying into Washington's war in Ukraine.

@Druvius The UN didn’t say anything, rather the 141 nations who voted to condemn Russia’s invasion said it all. I find it interesting how an invasion by Russia of its neighbor can be mislabeled “Washington’s war.” Not even Putin would call it a war, insisting that what he is doing is a “special military operation.” Well, isn’t that just special? 😉

@p-nullifidian You do know the UN has been a rubber stamp for the west since its inception, right? The vote means nothing, I repeat, only the US and its allies are going with America's sanctions. And since the US did everything it could to provoke Russia and is doing everything in its power to prolong the war, yes, it's America's war now, not mislabeling, fact.

@Druvius Oh please! We are no longer in the 50s! Just last year, 184 nations voted in the General Assembly to condemn the United States for its continued sanctions against Cuba. In fact, the only nation that voted in support of the United States was Israel! Does that sound like a rubberstamp to you? Just because you claim something is a fact does not make it so.

@p-nullifidian Thank you, you just proved my point.

@Druvius You’re welcome!

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