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I am currently debating a “know it all” Christian who does not understand there is very little difference between an agnostic and an atheist. I tried my best to explain that neither believes in the existance of a deity. It is just that atheists are more confident deities don’t exist. The definition of an atheist might have changed in the last half century. Now, most prominent atheists agree there is a possibility of the existance of a god or gods, but unless scientific proof is available, they cannot believe. Agnostic attitudes are pretty much the same. What does the agnostic community think?

Cgosling 4 May 4
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27 comments

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13

You can't reason with deluded.

Faster, easier, and less painful to knock down a brick wall with my head, than debate the delusional, I say.

I believe you actually can! However, it's important to remember the saying "never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience". I strongly advise against arguing with idiots, but playing the reason and logic game with out getting drug down to their level can yield interesting results. The saying goes both ways, if they try and play logic with you, a reasonable thinker, they will lose every time and be forced to consider their own belief system through a new lens.

9

Why are you debating this fellow?
Let them believe what they like.
You do the same. Discuss important stuff like whiskey, cigars, women and guns.

All four of those topics sound good to me.

6

Agnostic = without knowledge
Atheist = without god(s)

I suspect almost everyone here is most properly an agnostic atheist. I know I am. But my chosen label is simply agnostic.

vita Level 7 May 4, 2018

Same here.

5

My family equates my contemplative agnosticism with satan worship.

Ange Level 5 May 4, 2018

I explored paganism some years back, same response. Bonus: evangelical family refused to enter my house, lol.

5

I think you hit it right on the head as that is also how I see it. What believers and others need to understand is that if I make a positive claim for something I must have the evidence. If I tell you positively that no gods exist I have placed the burden of proof upon myself.

5

Agnostic (i don't know) v Atheist (i don't believe). Atheists tend to spend less time worrying about it because 'god' has no relevance to their day to day living

2

Hope this makes it easy. Bionic Dance on YouTube hits on this all the time.

Agnostic is a knowledge statement- I do not know if there is a God.

Atheist is a Belief statement- I do not believe there is a God.

I am 100% certain with all my knowledge and experience that there is no God I am an Atheist.

If the definition of God is something that I can not perceive or comprehend then by definition I can not claim to know what I by definition can not know so I am Agnostic.

I would politely disagree just in one respect. I would not say atheism is a 'belief statement' but rather a position statement. A position can always be revised and updated, for example if new evidence appears. If theists would like to present new definitive evidence about deities, as an atheist I would look at it. Given that over thousands of years they never have shown any and I have no expectation that they ever will, but that's the case in theory. The word 'belief' is more problematic for me.

@David1955 I do somewhat agree with you, I think we are speaking of two different things.

A(not) theism(belief) strictly by definition is without belief.

As a philosophy I completely concur with your assertion that it is a position statement,but this is not in the confines of the dictionary word usage. You are correct that the position statement should be made clear to one whom does not understand atheism.

In this same respect theism (not by definition) is a "faith" statement. I will choose to reject knowledge if it does not fit into my religious beliefs.

Thank You for a thought provoking comment!

2

I wish you were right that there are very few differences between agnostics and atheists. That should be the case. It ought to be the case. I always believed it was the case, especially on the bigger picture. But, as I have learnt here, with endless squabbling about which is the 'more nuanced position' and agnostic claims that atheists have to 'prove Gods do not exist' (false) and assertions about atheism being 'dogmatic' and an extreme position like theism, and so on and so forth, I have reluctantly been forced to conclude that the differences are greater than I previously imagined. You even see it in debates about the naming of this site, Agnostic.com. So, I don't care what religionists think; for the most part they lump the non religious all together. The debate however between agnosticism and atheism is, regrettably, quite real and in some runs quite deep.

You have touched on something very real here. We may squabble about nuance in our community. The important thing for us to remember is that to theist we are in fact ONE community and thus hated equally. It is OK to nit pick here but in the world we are simply perceived as GOD HATERS and we need to keep focused on the importance of being unified in dispelling false conceptions of what we are. Good point as usual.

2

Came across this story about Thomas Huxley defining the term agnostic. I had always thought of it as simply "without knowledge," and never noticed the "gnostic" part of a-gnostic. Since reading this I have been more confidant in calling myself agnostic, because it represents a kind of epistemology grounded in materialism and skepticism and antithetical to the mysticism of the gnostics who believed they had some sort of special knowledge revealed to them by god. [infidels.org]

2

I've always used a definition in discussion/debate that an agnostic follows no known religion, but could still allow themselves to pray in a time of need. Essentially they follow a religion by them selves. They are often the "I'm not religious, but I am spiritual" type. Crystals aside, they hold to a belief that something greater than them could very well exist.

An atheist believes there is no thing resembling a god in the knowable universe, and as such there is no need for prayer. Turns out there are other ways to bring around the similar effects, positive mental reinforcement, some styles of meditation, stuff like that.

An anti-theist is someone who believes religions to be poisonous. Now what's interesting is that you could technically be an agnostic anti-theist. You believe there could be a god, but he definitely doesn't write books. Same with atheist anti-theist. It's more about what you want to do with religions. An atheist could themselves believe there is no god, but lack any concern at all for religion in other peoples lives. Being an anti-theist doesn't have to be aggressive or destructive. Richard Dawkins himself tried to perpetuate the idea of "be an atheist that acts like Jesus". I thought this was a pretty fun concept, as I am all about approaching people with atheism and engaging them on beliefs, getting people to think about what they believe with rationale. It's fun, and if you're laid back and let people speak their minds, they are receptive to what you yourself have to say.

2

I don't think it's knowable either way if there is or isn't a god. It can never be truly knowable.

2

If someone tells you that they are agnostic and or atheist they are trying to impart information to you. If you refuse to accept that their definitions are what they mean by those words then that's just willful ignorance.

2

I've never really understood the difference myself. I consider myself an athiest, but if Jesus shows up tomorrow, I'll start believing in him. So I guess that makes me agnostic too.

2

God/gods do not exist for me. Call it what you will and let me know what you come up with. I'm good either way.

2

I'm agnostic because of what I know, or don't know in this case. I can't prove there is no doG.
I'm atheist because of what I believe, or don't believe in this case. I don't believe there is a doG.

2

As I understand it, an atheist actively believes in the nonexistence/absence of any sentient entity operating as the control source of the Universe. It can extend all the way to 'absolutely certain no phenomenon not currently explainable by science exists' but doesn't necessarily require universal nonbelief in all phenomena, and agnosticism is basically everything on a spectrum between 'I have no evidence to support the existence of supernatural phenomena but acknoweledge that perceptive and technological limitations may one day be overcome and reveal things we cannot now prove' to 'I'm pretty sure there's no God but I'm open to the idea' to 'I believe in something but I'm not sure what specifically and I find organized religion to be unconvincing or too intertwined with social and political influence to be satisfactory'

1

I believe it's a matter of degree. Agnostics are looser about whether a god exists, there may be, but how can we ever know unless it shows itself, whereas an atheist is more absolute that there definitely is not, though still we can't ever be absolutely sure.

godef Level 7 May 4, 2018
1

Interesting that you debate with Christians. You must have nerves of steel, or just enjoy frustration.

I do post links to youtube videos and articles that debunk religion on my Facebook page, in case any of my Christian friends still left (I've defriended the ones who were posting hate memes, which is a lot) want to bother to read or watch them.

1

True athiests believe in chaos, the universe is random and life has no purpose. They are existentialists.

Agnostics believe in a higher power (life has a purpose), not sure what exactly. These people are determinists (your life, decisions and who you marry and have children with are all pre- determined and out of your control).

Most people on here are probably agnostic cause being a true athiest can be a depressing concept to accept. You either believe in free will (athiest) or something beyond you is driving you, even if you do not know whom or why (agnostic).

I do not believe in chaos. This universe has laws of physics. Our universe acts in a particular way that is why we can test things in science. Our universe is formed the way it it because it is limited by those laws. Life as we know it did not "just happen". It came about due to the restraints of physics it "had" to develop the way it did within these laws. That is quite orderly.

Do not believe things that are repeated by Creationist that are said to confuse Christians about what is true.

I do not know that free will exist. I do not "know" that I can make any decisions other than what I do. I did not give my self my brain. I can not change how it works. I can learn but as soon as I have learned my mind has changed with the new information. I do not know that even if i think I change my mind that I could not have changed my mind. I am not an existentialist. I am simply agnostic on the subject as I do not know.

Agnostic is a knowledge statement- I do not know there is a god that is all it has no bearing on other beliefs or ideas. So one can not say they believe life has purpose as that has nothing to do with the term agnostic nor can one say they are determinist.

Atheist is a Belief statement- I do not believe there is a God. I am not depressed because of It I have actually overcome depression as I don't worry about not being tortured in hell by a mythical god.

I hope that you do not perceive this as an attack.I simply wish for you to understand others perspective. Stick around we often have great conversations here and I learn daily from the community!

@DavidLaDeau
Hey David,

I'm not an atheist but agnostic leaning into atheism. I do believe the universe does have order and physics is a means of explaining it. That physical system might be that way because of efficiency and might not serve any purpose at all.

I disagree that Life had to be created, it was created for no purpose at all and it was bound to happen. This is where I think chaos is more in control. There are environments that provide a means for chemical protein to synthesize outside our planet and NASA is looking for viable planets for humans to colonize on. The physical constraints for life to start is in a lot of places yet life is very scarce in the universe. Statistically speaking, life should be a lot more common in the universe yet it's not.

When it comes to intelligent life, it's even more rare. Intelligence is not needed for evolutionary change and survival, otherwise more species would be intelligent. Cockroaches will outlive species with much more intelligence.

The chaos idea comes from entropy. Physical laws, which is based on our observations and understanding(which can be proved completely wrong in 100 years) reduces entropy but things like nova, super nova, quasars, distortions caused by particles increases entropy.

PS - I won't get offended by comments but I may not have time to respond quickly.

1

I'm an atheist and I don't believe in even the possibility of a deity. Period. No.

1

Agnostic = without knowledge of a god’s existence.

Atheist = without belief in a god’s existence.

The two monikers tackle different topics. If you had proof that no gods existed then you could be a gnostic-atheist (someone that knows and doesn’t believe in god). But most atheists when pressed would probably have to acknowledge they are agnostic-atheists, we don’t know for certain but we lack belief. At least this is how I’ve come to understand it.

1

The problem is one talks about what you believe atheist or theist and agnostic and nostic talk about what you claim to know. They still havent figured it out...so some can be a agnostic atheist or theist

1

One is confident the other is not

1

I don't think about the topic much as I'm not crazy about attaching lables/names to myself. Skeptic is really the best word to describe me.

1

Tell him there's no difference between a christian and a jew.
See what he does then.
Btw, no true atheist, prominent or not, will ever contend that there is even a possibility that there are any gods.
Not without credible, verifiable proof.
Agnostics claim not to know one way or the other.

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