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I don't mean to start anything, but it seems to me, as an agnostic, that it takes as much faith to say there is no god as it does to say there is. Thoughts?

monstrslyr 4 May 15
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5

Um... It's safe to say unicorns do not exist right? Flying jellyfish? Birds that have no wings and are instead propelled through the air by farts?

Edit: flying sea jellies.

Good point also fart powered birds is a hilarious concept.

@MagRat naw...

@Blindbird imagine the noise a fart powered sparrow would make (I imagine a fast put put put put put put) ..... now image a Swan!

4

Not faith, logic. ?

But it's logic without proof.

@Kojaksmom it is almost impossible to reply to such a nonsense statement without appearing rude so i will bite my tongue ?

@SimonCyrene logic is not infallible.

@daylily it will always be controversial. To state that you know there is no God is a positive statement. To say that you don't know if there is a God ,or something like a god ,that is beyond our comprehension is a negative.

7

Atheism is lack of belief. Atheism is not a belief that something doesn’t exist.

Isn't doing nothing actually doing something? And how do we know what we don't know?

@josephr You're either convinced or not convinced. It's not really a choice.

@Rossy92 I disagree. Accepting that we can't understand everything at our stage of emotional and intellectual evolution is a reality, be it an uncomfortable one for many. There is so much in our universe that we can't understand, and often, we don't even know what we don't know. That is just one cross humans have to bear. Lol And we all have the choice to remain confused and to work around our confusion.

@josephr That sounds like an argument for agnosticism/atheism. My being unconvinced led to many years of identification with agnosticism. Intensive research led to atheism, being convinced that all religion and 'divine revelation' is mostly bunk, and not knowing whether there might be some deistic god, which while perhaps interesting, is largely an irrelevancy until it speaks to me and not through some appointed proxy.

@Rossy92 Actually it's my rationalization for accepting that i don't need to know. That does not eliminate curiosity, it merely means that knowing is unnecessary for me.

If i were to believe anything to do with the afterlife, i think reincarnation would be my favoured belief.

But actually, it's more important for me to accept what i don't know about life and the universe. I love the mystery, and never need the solution except to situational realities; philosophical questions, like religious ones, don't fall into that category for me.

At the age of 70, in a few years or more, i look forward to finding out what happens next; or not. LLOL It's actually exciting.

0

If we assume that science is based on logic, then where did the science come from?

It comes from testable evidence that it works like planes, medicine, refrigeration, the internet you're using, etc.

@Rossy92 True, but where did the logic to depend on evidence come from? These are the questions I ask myself from time to time.

Science is just a way to think about and explore our world.

@AstroLou That's exactly right. We have been programmed to make sense of our world even before we reach a cognitive stage; maybe even when we're in the womb. Now, scientists are exploring the possibility that our memories may actually be stored in our DNA. Whether that's true or not, what we're seeing and proving at times is that there is significantly more to our universe than we ever thought possible. So is science as a result of intelligent design? And if so, who were or what was the architect, or engineer if one prefers that professional analogy? I also know that there is so much that we don't know or understand since we are still a relatively baby race. Lol

@josephr

1

Faith is the belief in something for which there is no logical explanation. I think that this takes agnosticism or atheism out of the equation.

@TheMiddleWay
I din’ think you can have faith that there is no god but you can have that belief.

2

Yes it does..its no easy thing to abandon all previous..once dearly held beliefs. Furthermore you may face consequences for opting out of and completely abandoning all things religious.
From family friends and your community. You let go of Christian comfort for accepting truth and reason..because deep down it feels right to you.

@SallyMc ? Not disproven. I wasn't and wouldn't attempt to prove that some of us were never religious either naturally, or were not brought up in families that were religious. I was talking just answering. The statment that it takes as much faith to say there is no god as it does to say there is, from my own and presumably others position of having faith at one point and abandoning that faith and having the conviction or faith to ignore or accept some experienced consequences of doing so. If you were never religious you may not have struggled with having to negotiate personal or family issues . In other words you need to have conviction or faith in breaking free from religion when loved ones are still imbedded in it.

1

For me it doesn't take any faith to say there's no god. I haven't seen any evidence for the existence of god(s) so for me it's not faith it's a fact.

Well, absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence.

@AstroLou I'm not saying that a lack of evidence proves non existence, all I'm saying is I haven't seen any evidence for the existence of any god. The burden of proof doesn't lie with me, it lies with the person making the assertion of existence.

And to answer your point, surely an absence of evidence, while not evidence of absence, does mean unproven, which is where I'm coming from, for me there isn't just a lack of evidence, there's no evidence.

The best I could come up with regarding the existence of any god is 'I don't know' and nor does anybody else. And until such time as something convinces me this is where I am 🙂

@ipdg77 Same here. Show me the ! ?

2

I agree. The best we can say is there is no credible evidence to date that would be consistent with a supernatural being who reads our thoughts, punishes us if we don't believe in "him", answers our prayers, etc. and....created all space, time, matter, and energy. Nothing that would stand up to any kind of scientific scrutiny.

Very true. I wonder if that is part of our intended learning. Elicative research says that nothing is impossible until it is proven to be so. So the universe may be the consequence of 'intelligent design', and Universal Intelligence or Universal Consciousness may exist unbeknown to a race which is just a in the context of the universe. Exploratory research says anything is possible but many people need more definitive assumptions. Lol

@josephr Oh yeah? Ever try getting toothpaste back in the tube?

@AstroLou Not since i was about 3. hahaha

4

If I tell you I can fly and you say 'no you can't' do our opinions have equal validity? Until proof is produced it's a fact there is no god- the same standard I'd hold for the tooth fairy.

I don't think "fact" comes into until the basis for a statement is indeed provable. "Until proof is produced, it's a fact..." Is fundamentally flawed.

@lkahleski maybe not. We, as humans, cannot and will never be able to prove any god exists so by our standards I think we can call it a fact. Just in the same way that it's a fact unicorns don't exist. If there is a god and he choses to reveal himself to everyone then we can re-evaluate.

2

How about Spider-Man ?

As long as my 3-yr old believes he is Spiderman, I say it's real enough at my house.

Good analogy - we are the gods.

5

Religious faith is based on what if rather than what is.
Once the door to what if is opened, anything goes - got this invisible Dragon in my garage....says it created the universe.
The atheist/agnostic/believer game is a paradigm most can't get past as most are trained not to, rather to swirl in its circulatory, debating fiction as if it were real.
Cast the nonsense aside.
Evolution demands it.

The 'invisible dragon' argument model is perhaps my favorite microcosmic model for attempting to argue rationally with the devout.

It gets real pissy of you don't worship it too.

2

Firstly those making the claim would have to define what they mean by god, but yes: anyone making the claim would have the burden of proof, yes.

I don’t think an agnostic would suggest there is no god, by definition of the word: agnostic.

KenG Level 6 May 15, 2018
2

Well, I'll start off by saying that I'm an atheist since I don't believe in gods. That's what an atheist is fundamentally. A further step is to say definitively that there is no god. I suppose there could be gods, so I won't make a definitive statement that there aren't any. Evidence does not point to the existence of gods thus, I have no good reason to believe in them.
At any rate, it doesn't take faith to believe in a negative, not really. If you have no good reason (i.e. evidence to back it up) to believe something, it's not really faith so much as a lack of credibility to the belief.

10

I disagree.

Faith is a belief in something where there is no justification for that belief except that you want to believe it.

As an atheist, I see no evidence that would lead me to believe that a god/s exists. However, I do also appreciate that an absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence, unless of course there is a lack of evidence where you should expect to find evidence. For example, theists claim that their god answers prayer, yet study after study has shown that prayer has no better success rate that would be expected by pure chance. Holy books are at best ambiguous and at worst downright wrong.

The time to believe something exists is when their is evidence to support that belief. Not before.

As an atheist I do not say that there is no god. I say that I do not believe the claims that there is and that doesn't take faith.

Very well said, my friend!

5

How do you figure? There's not much if any effort needed to honestly not believe in something that makes absolutely no sense to believe in....no effort, no faith. The burden of proof does not rest on me for not being convinced...its on anyone making the assertion and the claim. Show me credible, objective, proof and evidence, and I'll change my tune. Until then, I don't believe it, because there's nothing to believe; and unlike theists, I don't need faith to NOT be a believer.

1

So if I make up a god and tell you it’s true. How do you identify this god is fictional inabsence of myadmitting I invented it. If I claim that a god visited me and added to its messages, what hurdleswould I have to jump through to get people to believe me? In short when there is zero way to confirm these claims are not fiction, there is zero good reason to accept them as true.

Sadly, you might not have to jump through many hurdles for a lot of people to believe you. But, for me, I would need to see far more clear and compelling evidence than, you told me so.

1

I am agnostic and I say the same thing.

2

I really don't think so. There is substantial evidence backing up the evolution based theory of how we came to be (among other things). If it is true it directly contradicts the way this is explained in any religion that I know of. I am fairly certain in my conviction that there is no higher power controlling any of this at least not any of the ones humanity has dreamed up or anything similar to them.

MsAl Level 8 May 15, 2018
0

If there is nothing to think about, there will be no conflicts about it... agnosticism and atheism are one way streets...

blzjz Level 7 May 15, 2018
8

As an atheist, it takes no "faith" whatsoever to say "there is no god". All it takes is a complete lack of credible, verifiable evidence. That's all. No faith required.

1

Just because people can think of something like a new God, doesn't make it real. Requiring evidence to believe in something is just smart, especially when there should absolutely be evidence.

3

Evolution does not logically kill the very idea of God, but it is his redundancy notice.

3

I am Agnostic because that term best describes me. If there was a " I DON"T GIVE A SHIT" I would be there. I have made my way through life, on my own. ON MY OWN!! And when I effed up I suffered the consequences.

1

"I see no evidence for a god or any supernatural phenomena." That is a true statement for me in that I am going to base my decisions and actions on it. This is basically what Neil De Grass Tyson says. He does not use the word "atheist". Atheist is an interpretation of the above true statement, and belongs in the discussion section of any scientific paper, not in the results. Agnostic is an interpretation also, and says there is no evidence for a god but we cannot absolutely it out.

I think what one can say with some validity is that there is no evidence for a god that interacts with humans in any way. There may be a god and we are such trivial blobs of protoplasm that he/she pays no heed to us and is involved in much more important things, like making parallel universes perhaps.

1

I always interpret the word faith as another way to say you really really "hope" but you don't know for certain. I just really can't place my hope into anything with out evidence. It would take much more effort for me to place hope in something without supporting evidence.I do say that I am agnostic only because I do not believe in any god defined in religious terms. Its all a matter of interpretation and definition. If you define a god as a entity of power, all knowing that sort of thing...we all are using that power now, we can summon it almost at will, right in the palm of our hand! The power to connect to people all over the world, and acess to all the known knowledge of mankind via internet! Technology and science is a higher power if defined in proper context.

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