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Religious indoctrination is child abuse. Yes or no?I know this topic has been brought up before but I'm gonna go for it anyway.
I was raised in a rather strict Baptist sect called the nazarenes. I began doubting what I'd been taught very early and was agnostic by the time I reached my teens. Much of what I was taught stayed with me however. To this day I find things in my mind put there by well meaning elders looking to teach me "the way".
The problematic thing is that most of these ideas and thought patterns are destructive and even debilitating. Teaching a child that they're always being watched and judged, down to the very thoughts in their mind is a particularly grievous form of brainwashing.
I had an amazing anthropology professor who freed me in many ways, though I doubt he ever knew what he'd done. Despite being a nonbeliever I still carried the conviction that my angry or lustful or covetous thoughts made me a bad person, whether acted upon or not. Learning that we are mammals, that those thoughts are universal and naturally occurring, blew my mind. I had still been living the idea that my thoughts defined me, not the actions I chose. That the desire for physical closeness and yes sex were not hell worthy offenses but biological needs that are actually important for our well being was astounding.
My indoctrination began so early and was so ingrained in my thought patterns that I couldn't even see it. That seems to me an awful weight to lay on a person, any person.

The idea of service to man and god is another problematic teaching. Yes people who dedicate their lives to others are admirable and praiseworthy. The idea, however, that your sole worth as an individual lies in how you may be used for others is fucking abhorrent. This one is so engrained in our culture that we all basically accept the notion of "you don't work, you don't eat". Self help books are full of ways to make yourself a better tool for others to use. Parents are expected to give up their lives and dreams to raise children. We vilify parents who "work too much". The negation of the self is so deeply entwined with religion, it's appalling. What is a self for if not to be fulfilled but thats one more thing religion robs us of.

Thoughts?

OpposingOpposum 9 May 30
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28 comments

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8

Yes. It's child abuse. Installing the fear of hell. Making them feel dirty about sex. Teaching them to hate women and gays. Teaching them they're always falling short of God's standards (sinning). It's all toxic and can't easily be undone.

I agree with everything you said.

Some men have no idea what it feels like to be a woman who feels dirty or ashamed about sex. But this 'sickness' is created by religion. The Virgin Mary, Adam and Eve etc... It all comes from religion.

7

Brought my two children up without religion and they are very well adjusted, due, IMO, to not being fed the religious BS. My mother in law told my daughter at age 7 that she would go to hell if she didn't believe in god. That was child abuse. Imagine a 7 year old trying to understand what it means to believe in god and what it means to believe in hell, and what it means to not believe in god as a means for being sent to hell as a punishment. This is why I agree with Herman Hesse that the concept of god is just an insanity.

BTW, my mother in law physically survived my wrath, but I did verbally tear her a new one.

6

Wow, you summed that up nicely, and I couldn't agree more. Only thing I have to add is my favorite meme on the subject.

5

Many religious beliefs are abusive in nature, yes, in that they teach self-loathing or are inherently demeaning.

I also believe that children can't consent to religious practices (baptism, circumcision, withholding medical care such as blood transfusions, etc) and therefore should be exempt from religious requirements until they've reached adulthood and are able to make those choices for themselves.

5

Even without being raised so strictly, (religiously), our culture still manages to instill a great deal of this claptrap.
Tho I don't want to dwell on it, just Mom's constant "what will people think?" Did damage.

Yes.

4

I agree. I have been in several situations where what I was taught in catholic school came into conflict with what I was trying to understand. Finding that there is much to unlearn can be frustrating as one finds that there has been too much time pondering ideas that really made no sense.

4

I was lucky. Went to a Jesuit school (the Jesuits were/are a sort of a radical arm of the catholic church). They didn't mind when I raved on in Religious Knowledge class that the pope is not infallible and contraception should be encouraged and that I'm becoming a buddhist. My classmates thought I was strange but not the priests. Maybe the Jesuits liked a debate or were closet atheists.

Jesuits were / are dedicated to learning and teaching. The original Jesuits caused much controversy to the Catholic church because they exposed corruption and demanded reform. They have always encouraged investigation and ideas. You were indeed lucky.

4

I think the indoctrination of children is an abomination. Filling their heads with thoughts of eternal torment, an all seeing 'god' & twisted ideas of what sex is & should be is definitely "child abuse" as far as I'm concerned!

3

I think it is abuse. Children shouldn't be subjected to any kind of indoctrination.

I have for many years been of the opinion that true belief cannot be forced upon anyone. It is something that someone has to seek on their own. So of course, this leads to the opinion that any belief brought about by indoctrination is not real. This does rather shed light on the amount of hypocrisy in the religious.

3

Change your sect to mine (nondenominational fundamentalist Christians) and we have the same story. It is child abuse and I have to fight my first instincts sometimes still. Which is why I'm an anti theist

There are so many distressing stories I read in the post. Just trying to get my mind around it.

I hope you are well.

@jules4169 thank you

3

Yes but religious people do not want to hear that. During the Easter season last year I posted as much on a post one of my teammates made about taking their kids to church. It was not distasteful or mean, just honest and did I ever get grief over it. There was nothing I could do but tell all people who were upset with me, I was simply telling the truth.

3

In the world we live in, having children is a form of child abuse. I do agree though.

You're not wrong.

@Blindbird
I've been wrong before..... I think it was on a Thursday..... 🙂

@Holysocks Thursday's a really good day to be wrong. you know the weekends coming up and everything...

3

YES, it is child abuse. Those who engage in it should be imprisoned and permanently lose custody of any minor children they have.
I don't care if that seems harsh. What they're doing is WORSE.

@TheMiddleWay

Trolls first.

@TheMiddleWay You're conflating my statement. Adults get to make their own choices, children do not. No one should be indoctrinating children to believe, or disbelieve, anything.

@TheMiddleWay I'm not suggesting children be indoctrinated into anything.
Teaching them critical thinking doesn't even need to mention belief or non-belief.

@TheMiddleWay

Seriously. Are you a troll?

Looking at your profile and your comments I suspect you are. You sound like a theist and you argue like a troll.

@TheMiddleWay You're still conflating. You extrapolated my comment to something I didn't say. You did that by saying, "building on what you say". Don't build on anything.

@Ellatynemouth Exactly so! Trolls first!!

@TheMiddleWay Religious indoctrination, in no way, teaches critical thinking. It is absolutely harmful. In many cases, physically. Almost always, emotionally.
That is child abuse.

@TheMiddleWay I never once said anything about teaching non-belief.
I didn't even make the suggestion of "teaching" atheism. The original post was about the religious indoctrination of children. You brought up other countries that penalize atheism. I'm not debating that. I never mentioned percentages of those suffering from mental illness rooted in their religious childhoods. You did that, as well.
I stand by my original statement. Religious indoctrination is child abuse.

@KKGator I agree with you, it is abuse, and children should be free from indoctrination. Also, I find it strange that @TheMiddleWay seems to be arguing for theism, instead of agnosticism.
@atheist, @Ellatynemouth, @Petter

@bingst

I think The Middle Way is a troll - which is why I've blocked him.

Life is too short. These people waste, not just everyone else's time, but their own time too.

@Ellatynemouth I really don't view TheMiddleWay as a troll at all. We've had many conversations that did not become adversarial. He does not resort to personal attacks or name-calling during debates, regardless of how heated. I don't consider engaging with him a waste of my time, ever.
I cannot say the same about others I've engaged with here. We all have the right to engage with who we wish, and I don't question anyone's choice to block anyone else. However, while he is a staunch adversary in debate, I also believe he is an intelligent, worthwhile human being. Do whatever you please. But I wanted to make sure I put that out there.

@KKGator

I'm glad you had a different experience with him. I found him to be pushing the theist narrative.

@Ellatynemouth I've never seen him do that. He may take a "devil's advocate" position, in order to argue a different perspective, but I've never seen him take any position that pushes theism.

3

I agree. I was raised in a Catholic family and also attended Catholic schools until the 3rd grade. I still have this fear of burning in hell and I'm 68 yo ! I know its the brainwashing and all that but never the less its in there somewhere. With all the damage being done around the world and in our nation.There of course are many examples of religious abuse. Myself I didn't raise my children in any religious beliefs and I know they're quite able to think for themselves!

3

I agree with everything you wrote above. I think there are two major topics here however:

  1. The abhorrent, EVIL compulsory indoctrination/brainwashing of impressionable children by adults whom they trust. This is something that greatly angers me. I feel it's criminal. Along with that aspect comes all the stuff you indicated above designed to bring blind obedience. Damaging in the extreme. Thank goodness you were able to break free with some objective instruction from a source outside religion. =]
  2. The altruism taught as a high moral standard by most religions (who require self-sacrifice and subservience to them first and everyone else afterwards). I completely disagree with this (as an Obvjectivist). I think rational self-interest is the natural state of Humankind. We work to improve ourselves and better our situations and as we succeed (in business, for example, we create jobs for others who also benefit from our success in this way) we bring others up with us. Most altruists would have you believe that any self-interest is accomplished at the expense of others and this is just plain wrong. Are there bad people in the world who will fuck over others, sure, but that is not the nature of Objectivism, nor of business (sorry, had to jump on my Capitalist soapbox for a microsecond). LOL!

Hmmm. I don't know that I can agree with that. Most of what I see in capitilism is people finding ways to make money off the labor of their employees while seeking to keep as much profit as possible for themselves. Even corporations that begin with more egalitarian ideals always fall to the bottom line above all directive.
Look at whats going on in the service and retail industries rn. Employees carefully kept under hours so benefits don't need to be given while being required to have open availability. Unpaid internships are rampant, as are wage theft and multiple other abuses. Capitilism is broken imo

@Blindbird I don't disagree that these things you mention happen, but they are not the norm and they are definitely not "how business works." I would guess that "most of what you see" is mainly what you see in the news and would question that this is a representation of the majority of business/capitalism. But we can still be friends. LOL! =]

@IAMGROOT nope. It is what I LIVE and what the people I know personally live with. I am and Have been a "lower class" person all my life. We'll have none of your gaslighting, thank you.

@Blindbird Ok, so now we're discussing capitalism and not child abuse, or altruism. I own a small, online business and I have worked for large and small companies, as well as in federal government (Air Force enlistment) and state government (where I work now). Do you really believe there is some conspiracy going on?

@IAMGROOT you are correct that is is a different topic. I do feel it's related however as one of the aims of indoctrination is to churn out good little worker bees.

I do not consider it a conspiracy. Its simply cause and effect. The entire aim of capitilism is to increase wealth for for the corporation and its shareholders. That objective, unchecked by concern for the human cogs in that money making machine leads to a lot of misery for those who don't own the capital, which is the majority of the population.

Who you are and what you own do not negate the truth of my statements. Interesting that those who benefit from the system we live in always fall back on the "do you know who I am?" chestnut.

@Blindbird Ok, first, I apologize if my statements about being a business owner came across as a "chestnut." They were only meant to convey that I have some business background and experience. BTW, my business is incorporated and my employees draw MORE income from it than I do. So while large, publicly traded corps constantly strive to improve the bottom line and what you see and hear about suggests they all do so on the backs and at the expense of their employees this is NOT always the case. There are plenty of large companies that treat their employees well and pay them well. My original business comments were more about the nature of business itself, which is a voluntary, mutually beneficial exchange of values. Everyone loves to demonize business while at the same time enjoying the benefits thereof (whether it be the benefit of having gainful employment through a business, or using products created by business). People seem to have lost sight of this absolutely true fact. @slydr68, Government regulation is actually the cause of much of the trouble. It often creates loopholes that can be taken advantage of by certain favored businesses (this contributes to crony capitalism, which I am against). Regulation by the FDA, supposedly done for the protection of "the public" contribute greatly to the cost of drugs. Also, the lengthy approval process delays the release of potentially life-saving/extending drugs, causing loss of life.

2

I also grew up in a rather strict Protestant strain referred to as the church of Christ. I also have carried some of those teachings with me for many years after I left, and in some way shape or form and probably still do. What do you call it when it's the brainwashed doing the brainwashing? from reading some of the stories of members here, there is no doubt that religion has been used as a form of abuse for some. To them I would like to say I'm sorry. With regard to my own experience I would hesitate to use the word abuse. Perhaps unfortunate or misguided, but if my parents had raised me any differently it would have meant that they did not love me. This was the only world they knew. God was never held over my head as the reason to do right. I've heard my father say that he raised me to be independently minded, but that perhaps, he had done too good of a job...lol.

That is a very fair and humane point Hank.

2

It teaches children that they are unworthy and that our natural impulses are deadly sins. For the vast majority of children it's demeaning, but for LGBT children it's horrific. Some sects are better than others, but all emphasize guilt trips and coerce children into "accepted" behavior.

JimG Level 8 May 30, 2018
2

Religious people want you to think like they do about life. They have a narrow view of life. My daughter had an experience in Hebrew school when she was young. Passion of the Christ came out and the rabbi said don’t see it. It is anti-Semitic. I explained to her that she shouldn’t take someone’s opinion for her own. Make up your own mind.
See it, don’t see it but make it your decision.

jab60 Level 6 May 30, 2018
2

I wouldn't object so much to people bringing up their children within a religion if they told them straight that it might all be a load of nonsense and that atheists or the followers of some other religion might be right, but most of them don't - they just heap lies upon their children and apply pressure to make them believe, and that's the child abuse.

My parents weren't like that though - they did the right thing, taking my sister and me to church (because they wanted to go there, which was fair enough), but not pushing us into believing anything at all, and they didn't let us go to Sunday school with the other children precisely because they didn't want us to be indoctrinated. We stayed in the church when the rest were shepherded out, and we listened to all the readings, trying to make sense of them and judging them for ourselves. At four years old, after I'd cracked the code of all the thees and thous, I remember listening to it all carefully and rejecting most of it as lightweight garbage, though the story of the good Samaritan was one of the better parts which made sense regardless of religion. I saw these massive tomes which they were reading stuff out of and wanted to get hold of one to find out what was in it that was so convincing that all these adults were prepared to waste half their Sunday singing songs about what to me appeared to be only one step up from Santa and the tooth fairy (which I had never believed in). I asked my dad about the tomes on the way home on one occasion, and he surprised me by explaining that they were just bigger copies of the same Bible that he carried to church with him, and when I asked about the better content that I imagined must be in there, he revealed that there wasn't anything more profound in there than the stuff they read out in the church. He was open and honest about it all. If all parents were like that, I suspect that religion would die out in the space of a few generations.

(I got bored with it all after that, but eventually found a way to escape by becoming a choirboy at another church where I got paid, so it was fine from then on. It was amusing being able to move some of the women to tears with a solo and have them imagine God was speaking to them through me when I was the only atheist choirboy there. The money was good, and so were the camps. Incidentally, we were all armed to the teeth with knives - this was perhaps a reaction to having to wear robes that resembled dresses, so never get on the wrong side of a gang of choirboys: they are a lot more dangerous than they look.)

2

I was just discussing this with my girlfriend. We are a little torn on how a child should be raised. I said it is best to let a child learn about religion when/how they want. She thinks that exposure to church teaches children how to interact with their elders and to be respectful and mindful of others in ways that school and such do not.

We both left churches, but we see their role differently. She likes the community aspects and sees it as a good bit of education that led her to where she is, while I see it as a mistake I made that slowed me down in getting to where I am. And that makes a huge difference in how church is viewed.

But we do not think a child should be raised in an environment that places the church in a position of infallibility. When you tell a child questioning religion makes them wrong, never the religion, you do not let them think, since they know the conclusions expected of them.

If it were me, I would not have children with that person.

@KKGator Neither would I.

@KKGator I understand that, but I also consider the argument that a child will be exposed to religion, so a candid discussion about it from someone who takes them to churches can be better than keeping them from it. There is a lot to unpack there, and certainly a number of options.
Exposing a child to religion is much different from indoctrination, and there are ways to tell a child that you do not believe, but do think they should see what there is to religion.

Another point she had made is that we both ended up coming out of religion and having educated opinions. We could help a child learn in a similar manner to us, but with a bit more support in the questioning of religion.

2

Absolutely is.

1

I agree with much of what you say. We are individuals and have the capacity to explore our potential and choose whether or not to develop that potential. We are also members of a social system. We can choose to contribute to that system in various ways or we can choose to simply take from it. The latter choice puts us in the position of a parasite. I don't say this as a moral statement, simply a matter of fact. I choose to try to contribute as well as taking from that system. I am more comfortable as a symbiont than a parasite.

1

My baptist sect wasn't as strict as yours, but I know where you are coming from. I was so blinded by the bs I couldn't see straight until I reached my early 30s and started to doubt my religious upbringing. I do wish I say the light earlier in life, like I say in many of my comments.

1

The good thing is that you were able to overcome that upbringing. Congratulations!

lerlo Level 8 June 1, 2018
1

Religion can be a good thing, but, it also advocates rape, murder, incest, and prejudice. For most people it doesn't harm them as adults. But it probably affects many of us raised that way. More people have been killed in the name of "God" than for any other reason. Hither for example was Roman Catholic for most of his life. Ignoring facts, and embracing false beliefs, based from books of lies is child abuse. Then teaching their kids it is fact is wrong. Most Catholics that are devout have never read the entire bible. I have. Richard Dawkins had mentioned in either the book The God Delusion or The Virus of Faith about how religious indoctrination as well as political is wrong. Look at how many serial killers were religious. I know you could say Stalin... but he did bad things because he was a bad person. In Islam, "kill the infidel". In Christianity, "fight the good fight", and "Onward Christian Soldiers". Junior said that his war was a "mission from god".

All good points but then where do you get the idea that religion is a good thing?

@Blindbird It helps in a placebo type way. It gives a lot of people a sense of purpose. That there is an all-knowing inviable man living in the sky that loves you, and you can always talk to him. It also helps people with death. I know he/she is up there now, smiling down on us... or even cope with the realization of their own mortality. The thought of just rotting in the ground for all eternity doesn't sound nearly as appealing as an afterlife. But to farther the negative side, it devolves us as humans. When I was in High School, they had to put a disclaimer saying that evolution is only a theory. So is gravity, and how we revolve around the sun. We have mounds of evidence to support evolution. Maybe the theory of gravity won't apply to them, and they will float away...

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