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On the Quest for the Soul

“There are claims in the parapsychology field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study...” – Carl Sagan

I came home very tired last night and so decided to forgo replying the newcomer who presented the question, which was generally being answered by our "know it all" atheists. I certainly hope he reads this.

The truth is we as a species do not know everything. For one, there are MANY possibilities of a soul beyond the mere "energy" that is you, which we know dissipates at death but to where, to what "destinations" and with what degree of remaining sentience we can only speculate.

Speculate, formulate, test hypothesis to the best of your abilities. That's what intelligent people do.

And NO!!! I am not suggesting suicide!!! You'll find out soon enough...

DangerDave 8 Jan 16

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Speculation is great, but...on what grounds do we choose to start with the premise that a concept known as a "soul" is worthy of serious speculation? Because religious folks believe in it?

I consider the possibilities for artistic and spiritual purposes, for the absolute fun of it and to not be associated with ideological atheists...you know, know it alls.

Evidence, though inconclusive and difficult to evaluate, abounds from our governments and finer educational institutions from much more disciplined minds than my own. Even though he didn't personally study it, I'll take Carl's word for it.

“There are claims in the parapsychology field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study...” – Carl Sagan

@DangerDave Ok, so it's a personal matter. Fair enough.

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I do wish people would stop going on about 'proof'. Proof or disproof of the various claims made in these posts is not possible. Proof is for mathematicians only. Please stop asking for it.

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Know it all atheist huh? so another but hurt that didnt like logic and reason and still clings to irrational religious notions huh? good luck with that attitude,

Just because religions have adopted a soul concept... does not means the soul concept was invented and belongs to them. I am only witness of this plane and this plane only. I will understand what happens when I die when I receive that experience. Then I will know if spirit or soul were in the placenta and should had not been removed. I can't study about it why I am here, it will be reveal to me or not when I die.

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The WHAT? Do define, and PROVE the existence of. . . .

Hi Gipsy. The onus of proof lies with the one that's making the suggestion that we have a 'soul' and that there is 'life after death' , whatever that means.It's almost axiomatic (obvious) that death is the end of us even though it'd be lovely to somehow 'know' that there actually was more existence 'beyond' but it seems to be all wishful thinking. To me personally this whole idea (belief) that we actually go on beyond the grave is something that our egos like the thought of. We don't like the idea that death is exactly what it looks like.

Prove its nonexistence.

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There's a kind of weird 'twist' on your last statement. "You'll find out soon enough". How can you "find out" anything if you no longer exist ?

what proof do you have that just because he no longer exist Here does not means he is not There? You don't know what There is. You know as much about what's after death as you know about if there are any Aliens or if there is a god or gods. You only know this. Any other plane is off limits to you.

I'm an artist adept at weird twists. Glad you caught that one!

Really, you're talking to someone who cares more that there are too many "know it alls" who say there is no soul and the myriad opposite extremes of the theists...much more than any of the many "soul theories" being true or not. Either way, I know I'm a great bother to those who know everything...but be they theist or atheist I rather enjoy the role!

@DangerDave Somebody need to remind them. They are so Sour with the party that they don't want to go to another party.

I'll take a hole in the head, literally, before I would follow such an ideological belief as the atheism you propose. I'll stick with Carl on this one, though neither of us ever committed ourselves to a serious academic study of parapsychology.

As things stand the 'soul' in it's religious definition is simply just a religious concept.

Well, yeah. Elementary, Dear Watson. There are many other definitions as well, some not so far from religious concepts. I'll actually give more credit to science here in that there are many disciplines involved in the study of the psyche, ergo one of many definitions of the soul.

For me an open mind is preferred for creativity and I see it as an essence of my, and most of our, humanity. I enjoy living in a mysterious universe...knowing everything would give me far less comfort...not for any hope of an afterlife but for not living in the cold comfort of being certain of everything...be it a theist belief or non.

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It doesn't matter. We can't see it feel it or measure it....so enjoy life now

Absolutely, Pooska!!! & @DerekD I'm going out on a limb here and say Pooska has had a few such experiences herself. I sense it...don't ask me why...

My most prominent times are when I'm "with" an audience as a performer or the opposite extreme of focused solitary silence in which I both rest and create. Readily empirically explainable to a degree as I "relearned" in studying education, psychology,...which transfer brilliantly to applications in the performing, visual and literary arts. The actual experiences of these transcend explanation.

I personally have worthless, short term premonitions; someone tripping, dropping something: something else largely attributable to my above studies and known facts. Still, back in the days when we "card tested" none of us were far from median BUT several of us performed much better when in a good mood.

I've seen ghosts, UFOs and know them as natural phenomenon I have millions of theories for, all just musings because in the end, it really doesn't matter enough to take seriously...unless they create an artistic spark.

I can direct you to the research of the CIA and most prestigious colleges. I don't pretend to understand all the raw data but the common consensus there is much compelling but inconclusive evidence in several areas of parapsychology.

If you made it this far, see Carl's opening quote again...

...now Derek,what do you think about those...who believe they can see auras, feel energy, etc.. all the ESP stuff, etc. ?

@DerekD I've never seen woo that could stand up to a few well throughout questions. I think it would be awesome if there were ghosts and auras and if Ouija board were real but they don't stand up to any kind of investigation.... I've been told that stuff doesn't work for me because I have negative vibrations..... but no one has ever told me what is vibrating or how to tell the difference between a negative vibe and a positive vibe..... it's a bunch of whooy from what I've seen

@DerekD I've never seen woo that could stand up to a few well throughout questions. I think it would be awesome if there were ghosts and auras and if Ouija board were real but they don't stand up to any kind of investigation.... I've been told that stuff doesn't work for me because I have negative vibrations..... but no one has ever told me what is vibrating or how to tell the difference between a negative vibe and a positive vibe..... it's a bunch of whooy from what I've seen

@DerekD id buy it if you found the death certificates of the ghosts that had the same names 🙂 as for "stoned" people absolutely lol people also just want it....they want the magical world to he real, they want to be special and how special would it be if you could actually see the dead or someone's soul or heal others with good vibes focused with a rock??? It would be amazing!! There is a movie 1408 (could be wrong on the title) but it's about a guy that writes about "real" haunted houses because he makes money that way. He doesn't belive it for a second because he's always been able to find an explanation....he ends up in a room that really is haunted and is now a believer....good movie and is the kind of proof i would need to buy into that. I have room for proof to come but I've yet to find any and at this point I honestly don't even look for it... I don't look for unicorns in the woods either but damn would it be cool if they were there

@DangerDave I can't say that I have had an "experience" but I was raised by people that told me I should be having them. I tried so hard to have them but I just ask too many questions. I was given a "magickal" pendulum when I was about 10. Told it would guide me and give me answers.... so wanting to have it be true wanting the adults in my life to be wise I used the damn thing all the time! Then I got curious because ibakways have me the answer I was hoping for...so.... instead of holding it.... i ties it to a stick and didn't touch it.... annnnnnd nothing! No shit right?!? If I was older it would have been the moment I crawled out of the cave and saw the real world instead of the shadows but I was 10 and didn't have the skills to fight the woo. Took about 15 more years before I was able to see past it all. I look back on a childhood filled with memories of me trying to make the impossible happen, things not done because of where mercury was located at the time, people I didn't get to think ow because of what no th they were born in... i could go on 🙂 I'm just thankful I got away from all of it

I was wrong on both counts!

@Derek my apologies for taking your statement as a personal affront. I mistook you for an ideological atheist slamming any inquiry into the unknown, which is clearly not the case. Too many experiences I've had also make atheism, especially as I've experienced it here, too closed minded and contradictory for me to be a part of it.

I'm curious...did you contact any parapsychological organizations with your experiences in that house?

@Pookska ...woo? wow...really? To minimize such a broad field of serious study like that...but apparently you were raised by...I'm guessing "new agers" who gave you the pendulum?

I don't think any of these phenomena are beyond explanations....such as why some of my most philosophical, spiritual and at times even scientific artistic creations were realized while I was stoned. Still, even these could not be measured completely given the limits of our current science.

@DangerDave it's not serious study though..... if it is please provide a link to it. I've never been able to find valid proof of ghosts, esp, channeling, crystal healing......ya know woo 🙂 and yes I was drug up by "new agers" I've heard it all from astral.projection to ear candeling..... proof is in the pudding and I can't seem to find the pudding and that sucks because I like pudding.

Cool YouTuber I recommend Oscar jungle

Not a serious study...its studied by governments and some of the world's most prestigious universities.

Here's a small introduction. There are literally thousands of academic studies and documents I won't pretend to understand...except such phenomenon are difficult to measure and are inconclusive.

[collective-evolution.com]

@DangerDave just a 10 minute search of the PEAR group you can debunk their results. 1) ots old info...over 10 years PEAR has been closed 2) no one has been able to reproduce their results. We know gravity to.be valid because every time I drop something on my foot it just adds to the overwhelming data for the concept of gravity. 3) 90 some people over a 12 year period is not significant in any way.......they even say that in their paper from the link you sent me. 4) they actually used people that worked for PEAR as participants in the study!!! This isn't valid research..... at all. 5) documentaries are not made to give us unbiased info they're to entertain us. Understanding the process that a hypothesis goes from an idea in someones head to a valid peer reviewed journal is really important to falling victim of Deepak Chopra type info. Basic statistics and how to read a research paper are a good starting point. We gave these standards for reasons and it's not easy. I don't claim to be an expert but I do know enough to know garbage when I see it.

Still there is evidence of phenomenon as yet inexplicable as it is unpredictable, as are many of my personal experiences. I'm sure they are all natural phenomena and, like Carl, I'll salute any who seriously study them.

Foremost, the entire concept is a mere curiosity to me...one which only keeps me awake at night when it demands artistic creation. Those times you may quantitatively measure as you wish...it seems unlikely I'd be much more than mildly amused by your data, though.

@DangerDave well yes there are plenty of things that we don't have explainations for but, that doesn't mean the explainations for it are something super natural... as far as ghosts and esp and the rest used for creative endeavors that's a far different conversation than it's real and here's the valid research. If you meant woo as a source of some great imagery and not hey Pooska woo? wow...really? To minimize such a broad field of serious study like that....well that's not how this conversation started.....

Minimize? Not really. I respect anyone who devotes themselves to any intellectual and academic progress, especially those related fields of mind and physical sciences...but I got off the "scientific bus" early, soph year.

Now, I'd just a soon not read over pile of scientific "evaluation" of why and how I wrote a story, evaluate the validity of the results,... I'll instead go on to more ponderings for my next work.

And we're not so far off track. You seemed to have missed I see my thoughts, feelings, works, discoveries, adversities and..."woo", if you will are all part of my soul, even if its just in the James Brown sense.

Even though far beyond humankind's grasp now its all very natural.

@DangerDave I didn't miss anything...you claimed to have seen ghosts and ufos etc etc you then claimed to have links to valid research.... you then changed your claim that it's just to contemplate for art when I point out the crap source you provided....and now....niw you claim that you " got off the scientific bus" ...... go move your goal posts somewhere else. If you want to believe in esp and ghosts and all that other woo go ahead.... I'd agree with you but then we'd both be wrong. You are like talking to my aunt's..... frustrating uninformed and refuse to admit they don't know how to have a logical conversation....have a great weekend feel free to tell the kids on the playground you won this I've spent enough time reading your half ass points

Ok, I win. You can go be obnoxious elsewhere now.

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Such a 'Quest' seems to me to be an exercise in futility. It would be lovely if there was such a thing as a 'soul' and that it went on existing after our bodies have died but it's fairly obvious that it's wishful thinking on our part. Believing in a soul, and that's all it is , a belief, seems to me to be a fantasy that our egos conjure up because we cannot stand the thought that at death we cease to exist. But I do love to talk about this topic. So here's my 'take' on it. Our minds , which are 'us' can only exist whilst the brain is alive. At the time of death (brain death) the mind no longer is 'there' or 'anywhere'. When you're dead , you don't know your dead because there's no one there anymore to know anything. Kinda puts a real 'zest' into life and existence doesn't it. This way of looking at it goes beyond mere belief. It's stating the obvious. That's the most simplest way to look at it. We are 'mind'. The word 'soul' is a religious word

And you can prove your "thesis" with a....

Hi again Gipsy. The way I see it there's no need to 'prove' the obvious. Life is for living and knowing that this life is the only one we'll ever have really puts a bit of zest into existence yes? And the only rule of life I think is to "Don't do to others what you'd not like done to you" If you want religion , well, there's the greatest religious maxim of all.

You are confusing "belief in" with "considering the possibility of".

Carl Sagan agrees it warrants further investigation and there is ample evidence for those with open minds.

Forgive me, but I'll stick with Carl on this one...unless you have concrete evidence there is no soul in its myriad definitions.

Hi DD. As you mentioned "Carl Sagan agrees it warrants further investigation and there is ample evidence for those with open minds" The problem here is that an open mind can easily lead to a 'hole in the head' How exactly could the scientific method be used to 'prove' the existence of such a nebulous thing as a 'soul' ? As things stand the 'soul' in it's religious definition is simply just a religious concept.

I'll take a hole in the head, literally, before I would follow such an ideological belief as the atheism you propose. I'll stick with Carl on this one, though neither of us ever committed ourselves to a serious academic study of parapsychology.

As things stand the 'soul' in it's religious definition is simply just a religious concept.

Well, yeah. Elementary, Dear Watson. There are many other definitions as well, some not so far from religious concepts. I'll actually give more credit to science here in that there are many disciplines involved in the study of the psyche, ergo one of many definitions of the soul.

For me an open mind is preferred for creativity and I see it as an essence of my, and most of our, humanity. I enjoy living in a mysterious universe...knowing everything would give me far less comfort...not for any hope of an afterlife but for not living in the cold comfort of being certain of everything...be it a theist *belief" or non.

Hi DD. I'd be careful trying to drag Carl Sagan in to back up your conclusions. He deals quite clearly with what he thinks of most of this psychological 'WO' and other types of 'WO' in his book 'The Demon Haunted World". But he was always open to all possibilities as he was a very opened minded scientist. And he loved to talk about religion like a lot of us do. Pooska also spotted the fraudulent nature of the so called 'research' by PEAR in that link you sent.

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All true enough as far as it goes, but you have to ask yourself why do we keep holding out hope for some things and not others. Motivated reasoning, or evidence?

skado Level 8 Jan 16, 2018

The ego loves to imagine that it goes on forever.

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Conservation of energy relays energy is absorbed or disbursed become something else.

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