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LINK Feminists treat men badly. It's bad for feminism. - The Washington Post

Definitely a needed article in today's gender battle. It is even better that it is written by a woman because men aren't allowed to speak out because of fears stated in this article. Everyone believes in equality of the sexes but few will identify as a feminist for these very reasons. When the movement as a whole has almost become a fringe minority (down to just 20ish%), including even women, maybe it is time for some self reflection and some acceptance to change to be more inclusive should be considered. In this world of rampant inequality that all races and sexes face, we need more people coming together instead of divisive rhetoric that just leads to more problems.

jorj 8 Dec 2

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1

I came across a recent post in which some dude is complaining about how some members on here are downing the modern day feminist movement. Haha, those folks crack me up...

1

this is for you jorj. Enjoy

So u think i was cleaned out in divorce huh? Sorry but I wasn't dumb enough to fall for that racket. And I don't have kids because I am responsible and don't practice unsafe sex so u can save time on the child support attack u all love so much. All these kinds of posts just show u do know the reality of the system being rigged for female privilege but u won't say it because it undercuts your movement. Thanks for the share tho, help me point out more of the female privileges.

Only way I would marry is hypergamously so when divorce comes I can get the alimony because I do believe in equality and since men can pay lifelong alimony to a capable woman then it's only right some men aim for that goal as well.

1

As for “mansplaining,” these days it seems to mean little more than a man making an argument a woman dislikes.

So the author doesn’t like hard critique feminism. Well fine I suppose but I often wonder at the target here.

And the headline is properly rubbish: I realise the author probably didn’t choose it but the crass generalisation in an article where nuance would have potentially made it worth reading is hopeless. The term feminist is so broadly used as to be almost meaningless. I’m definitely feminist. I’m also definitely not misandrist.

I don’t recognise this apparent mass abandoning of feminism by women: think that’s wishful thinking. I know loads of feminists, know lots of anti-fems too and they seem to be broadly as they have been for decades.

And then use of extremes to batter the whole is well tested ground but also fairly poor calibre.

This isn’t one that’s going to get resolved easily but personally I ignore the criticisms which don’t apply to me, try to address the ones that do and recognise firmly that there is an awful lot which is still to be done to get equality. Slamming feminists with shit articles like this isn’t one of them...

Mansplaining is nothing more than than a way to ignore men just as manspreading is nothing more than testicle shaming.

@jorj Well - I recognise the phenomenon that loads of blokes talk over women, silence them, don;t let them get a word in sideways. recent thread on here where a women tell's her story about being in a threatening situation, dealt with it professionally and well: but still loads of blokes turned up to tell her how to do it better.

Unsurprisingly, many women get quite irritated by it. So I think it would be reasonable to suggest that, if many people experience something, that fact that you can't see it might not mean it doesn't exist. I see it all the time. At work in particular. But in many places.

oh Owl...... you need to be cloned! sigh You're the wrong nationality for me; You're too young for me....but I do want someone to go to protest rallies with ! 😀

@OwlInASack ironically tho, u don't see what I see so u say it don't exist. I linked the sources below for ya tho.

@OwlInASack and it's men who interrupt men and women more equally while women interrupt women more than men. Men interrupt men and women more equally showing they are giving women exact equality. U can't tell us to treat women like we would men then get mad when we do. Come on now. The fact u only see men do it is because that is what best fits the agenda.
[graziadaily.co.uk]

@jorj

“Interesting, right? It'd be fascinating to find out why we think it's OK to interrupt women. Is it because we all think women are more conversational? Is it because we're not used to women giving speeches? Or is it because we just directly don't respect what women have to say? Whatever the reason, let's all make a little effort to not interrupt one another. It might just be harder than you think.”

You read that and say that, because women interupt women more often than they interupt men, the mansplaining doesn’t exist? Do you want to think about that a second?

Here’s the deal: I see it all the time. I have to create space and stop men speaking over women all the time. A woman will start to make a point - quite often after I’ve had to make the point explicitly: “do you have anything to say on that?” And then some testosterone fuelled bloke will interupt them. I have very rarely seen a woman do that and it is definitely not something I see all men doing. But some definitely do - routinely

Now: I will not deny that some women do it too. If there’s food research that shows so. Fine. The questions that went with it are pertinent: why are so many people conditioned to think this is ok?

But the article does nothing to negate the existence of mansplaining and everything to support it. It measured it happening FFS!

@jorj

ironically tho, u don't see what I see so u say it don't exist

What do you say exists? I’m very confused

I thought you were saying mansplaining doesn’t exist?

@jorj Adrienne Hancock, a researcher at the Department of Speech and Hearing Sciences at George Washington University and MSc student Benjamin Rubin ran a study where they got 20 men and 20 women to have conversations with each other.

40 students and you call this evidence? This needs way more applicants, publications in reputable journals (not online rags). And it needs to be replicated before it can even be considered a theory. The trouble with the internet is everyone can find an article to support their stance (bias) without any scientific research even occurring. The article didn't even explain how the conversations were assessed.

@MsDemeanour

40 students and you call this evidence? This needs way more applicants, publications in reputable journals (not online rags).

I was going to point that out too(!), but as @jorj 's research supported the proposition that mansplaining is a thing, I didn't need to. The idea that an article in Grazia supports anything in an evidence debate is hilarious. Anyway. It definitely did NOT do what was intended and show that mansplaining isn't a thing.

Eventually, however hard we try, reality can break through.

@OwlInASack u won't deny some women do it too? even tho the article shows women do it MORE...I can't help but just laugh at some of this stuff.

@OwlInASack and mansplaining don't exist. It's a made up buzzword to ilnce men's thoughts and opinions. Everytime a woman clarifies something for men does that men she is womansplaining? I don't think so, I think it's just how people communicate. But I don't need a reason to disregard women or things they say because I can back up anything I say and I'm not against opinions or questions I don't agree with from being heard.

@MsDemeanour so u don't like MSM sources and now u don't like studies from universities...wow! I guess nothing is gonna be accepted by u except your own beliefs being confirmed.

@jorj I’ve just logged in after work and I’m tagged 24 times by you jorj! I’m scared!

Not sure I can deal with this today - apologies: I moved to Zurich and to a new contract and into a new flat tonight...all a bit full on. I’ll get into it in a bit...

@OwlInASack all responses to the tags u left for !e the last time I logged on. It goes both ways.

@jorj yeah - understand - just shattered and can’t deal now...

@MsDemeanour I’ll definitely come to protest rallies with you!

5

Ann Coulter is a woman, too--that doesn't mean I respect what she writes about feminism (or anything else). That "appeal to authority" falls flat. The article constructs a straw man based on the fallacy of dramatic instance - a few offenders who are very visible in the media. Feminism NEVER said women were better than men, or that they hate men. The whole idea is EQUAL respect, opportunities, and empathy. If you can't get behind that, then I don't know what to say to you.

Orbit Level 7 Dec 2, 2018

Bang on the money: great comment.

Guess u don't see the kill all men posts and male tears stuff by these new wave of feminists. Nothing but misandrist garbage and that is why people are walking away from the movement.

@jorj

You are absolutely right: I don't see all those kill all men posts: you'd have to go to some extreme places to see those. Why are they even relevant to this discussion? Do you think that there are millions of feminists who want to 'kill all men'?

What is this 'movement' that 'people are walking away from'? I think you are just making it up... please give me some facts about any bit of a mainstream feminist movement being anything like the way you portray it.

@jorj Where the heck ARE these posts about "Kill all Men" Source it or shut up.

@MsDemeanour huffpost editor good enough for u?
[inc.com]

Google search and u can find plenty of examples of it

@OwlInASack the same place who had the editor say kill all men even admits feminism is unpopular.

[huffingtonpost.com]

@OwlInASack, @MsDemeanour not trying to be rude but do u all even research any of this other than just the occasional article on a news feed? These things are easy to find.

@OwlInASack, @MsDemeanour feel free to order up many misandrist and sexist products to support feminism, but never let an MRA group even speak about male suicide cuz they "hate women".

[google.com]

@MsDemeanour figured I'd also share this for u to see the many tweets to kill all men. Now what would be said if one tweet that had #killallwomen was shared, instant Twitter ban for life anpossible hate crimes charged. But when it's men it's no biggie, as usual.

[mobile.twitter.com]

@jorj This may come as a surprise but most news reports sensationalise and exaggerate. I don't do twitter because I don't have the energy or time to waste. As I said some have an axe to grind. These are the ones that get the publicity. Just like muslim terrorism. How rare is that in your country? And yet if you listened to the media you'd think it was going on in the house next door.

@jorj No it is not good enough for me. It is one man's opinion. I need evidence or I will conclude that it is made up rhetoric by a man who was beaten by his mother. I find my research from reputable journals found in University libraries. You seem to get yours from the Huff post and Twitter.

@jorj I can't see huff po links. But a woman saying that feminism is unpopular isn't really worth much eh? Every woman who works for Fox News will say that too. Doesn't make it so though.

I'd say, a good 80% of the women I work alongside would call themselves feminists. Now this is Europe so maybe it's different. None of them hate men as a category. So any attempts to suggest that feminists hate men is just bollox and we can discount it and question the motives of anyone proposing such utter nonsense.

@MsDemeanour I link huffpost because it is the left wing holy grail for my generation. I've already said there are many amazing feminist ladies from your generation but unfortunately the new wave is destroying what previous generations worked so hard for and because u don't like MSM stuff is why u don't see it i guess. I use MSM and the same things u do as sources. I like to have a wide range of information so I can see more of the picture. If u want to act like an editor from HuffPost starting the kill all men thing is irrelevant then more power to ya, im sorry u don't understand the impact that is having on the public relations of feminism and driving pople away even tho from what u said about the media being hypersensationalized and such makes me think u just don't want to admit to what I'm saying being true. Oh well, I tried is a I can say. Maybe the movement will last long enough so that u wnthave to see the death of something justly fought for but with a 20% approval rating and dropping it's hard to tell.

And the beat by his mother thing is just more proof of what this article is saying so I'm starting to think maybe u aren't so much different than the new wave if that is your go to thought process. Use the "u hate your own mother" insult/dodge any time a man puts evidence out that u don't like, see how fast the support comes running back....lmao

@OwlInASack it isn't a woman saying it, it is the results of a YouGov poll that are being reported on.

@OwlInASack here is a Vox poll to back it up. It's easy to find this stuff with Google if u really want to know or u can just keep on ignoring all the facts out there and stick to the agenda and echo chamber stuff. And both articles defend the results as people not understanding what feminism is because they too push left wing bias and that is why I use them. I could use right wing stuff that gives other reasons like in the original post but we already disagree on if these reasons are real or not. Even tho people give these reasons they are still ignored and justified away.
[thelala.com]

2

Ironic. The group that categorizes and lumps everyone together, is the same group saying don't lump us all together. SMH.

Which group?

@OwlInASack feminism, esp thrid wave feminism and it's mostly misandrist agenda

@jorj which group?

Just repeating MRA lies and victim propaganda doesn't answer the question. Which group?

@OwlInASack all feminst groups lump white men together just off prejudice. If u can't even admit that with all the evidence at every corner then we really just won't agree about anything. It's even been said all white men have to do to be successful is just be born. If that isn't pumping all together just for an agenda then nothing is.

@OwlInASack here is what reality for white men is.

[realclearpolitics.com]

@jorj No jorj. You're living in a victim fantasty world. That is not how the world is for white men. I am a white man and that is not my world. My world is one where I am believed professionally more easily than women. Where I am more likely to get senior jobs. Where many (not all) life chances are enhanced for me. Where a woman has to be better than me to achieve the same as me.

Likewise for POC.

But any attempt to redress the imbalance or bring equality is shouted down as persecution by the privileged majority. Exactly the same as Christians do by the way.

@jorj all feminst groups lump white men together just off prejudice.

Can you see what a terrible comment that is? Just to start, is factually wrong. But you'd need to know all feminist groups to be able to make the statement.

So all it says is: here's a fella feeling defensive..

@OwlInASack that comment was no more terrible than u saying I lump all feminist together when I have made clear distinctions in post on this thread. I've said there are amazing feminists from the second wave but I guessed didn't register that o didn't see it. The third wave is what is killing it and some of the second wave are just jumping on board with it.

@OwlInASack project that victim fantasy world on to me all u want but everyone know who is claiming victim all across the nation.

@Veteran229 My thought exactly.

@jorj What would you expect Jorj? Mr Owl has his head covered with a sack, he's not listening to a word you say. Oh well, that's his loss, people like him are uncomfortable with reality...

5

This sort of straw man crap is just so tiresome.

Isn’t it just?

Strawman? Did u even read the article. It give exact names of the culprits.

@jorj Yes, read the article. Nice example of how to string false arguments together. Very convincing if one already believes this nonsense, but otherwise crap.

@Druvius could also be someone who is part of the movement refuses to accept any critiscism because of the echo chamber style society we have become. Whether people part of feminism ever self reflect and see why they have become so unpopular, even among women, is totally up to them. If they want to be relegated to just a fringe minority group, then by all means, ignore all of this and keep right on with the agenda. Wont take much more loss of support to be just that, a fringe minority. We already got Trump because of the craziness that left wing has become so I guess it will take literally a Hitler to take over before the left as a whole wakes up to their own problems.

@jorj Criticism is fine, this is completely mischaracterizing feminism. One big straw man argument. Rush Limbaugh type crap, just more nuanced.

@jorj it was full of straw men! She put up examples of crap feminism, said 'this is feminism and it's crap' and battered all feminism on the back of it.

What an utterly shit article!

@OwlInASack so the "not a real Christan" defense...lol. If they wear the label and it's not spoken out against them then they are part of your group. That's how this works. If u don't like them ruining feminism then fight them, but beng against them would go against the no critiscism of women of today's culture I guess. Tough spot for u to be in.

4

An Intelligent feminist would set an example by living The Golden Rule! Do you judge all Xians by the mass murderers? Muslims by terrorists? I hope not! Then please realize all movements have morons/ nasties, and do not judge them by their lowest common denominator!

The article was not written by any kind of recognisable feminist

Show me the feminists that set the example by living by the Golden rule. The movement is not what it used to be. The article points out some of the high profile sexists like Clementine and Valenti that feminists cheer on. Where are the ones discussing issues about women and men like I keep hearing about? No one ever shows me this and I do look myself as well.

@OwlInASack when 8 out of 10 women aren't feminists then that will happen more often than not unless u live in the feminist circles of media.

@jorj I am a staunch " good one"one....i actually turned against the mainstream movement in the late 70's /early 80's because they, suit-wearing office flunkeys, were so nasty to us blue-collar gals ( who were in fact at the forefront of higher-paying jobs for women without college degrees!) I have felt their dismissive sneers myself......

@AnneWimsey it has only got worse since u turned. Many older generation feminists are amazing but the movement has left them behind just as democrats left working class people behind.

@jorj what movement? Come on - tell us! There is no single 'movement'. Feminism has extremes, factions - all sorts. But a basic common cause of equality exists for large numbers - myself included.

Personally I find the 'I can get my kit off and it's empowering' feminist bit, tough to swallow as it seems to just play to the objectification of women as sex objects. But - fine...I;m not going to make a big song and dance about it: the common goal exists - equality.

@jorj

"when 8 out of 10 women aren't feminists then that will happen more often than not unless u live in the feminist circles of media."

I don't know where the 8 out of 10 figure comes from. That definitely doesn't apply where I am. Most women would identify as feminist: vanishingly few wouldn't. And I'm a chartered accountant..

@OwlInASack once more, for the hundreth share of this link. Even leftie media can't deny it when it's this bad.

[huffingtonpost.com]

0

I tend to agree … but have to ask.. Are you just searching this stuff, cuz the article’s over 2 years old.. Had it been released last week, yes, post it … but I’m getting the feeling you’re kinda stuck on this.

And hey - I’m sure neither of us scored any female points on a previous go-round 😕 So yah, I agree, but feel I see only that “20%ish” number of female participants around here who’d fit the criteria … the rest are cool & impressive, often getting my points ~

Varn Level 8 Dec 2, 2018

@Varn I found myself on a rad fem website a few years ago run by a woman who believed in separation because men are intrinsically bad and dangerous. One can only imagine what might have caused someone to get to that place.

But - and exactly to your point - that isn’t what most feminists look like. And his article is just click bait...prettt poor quality click bait too

I research stuff everyday using my free time. I don't waste the day watching pointless entertainment. I like being informed instead of programmed by my one news source like most people do.

@OwlInASack sexism and misandry is what got them there

@jorj

sexism and misandry is what got them there

That's a startlingly bad comment. You have no idea. She didn't give details, but a violent sexual assault was part of it. Doesn't make the reaction great. But as you have no idea, all you've done there is tell us quite a lot about yourself jorj. Why do you have so little empathy? Why so bitter and distorted? I don't know a single feminist who hates men. I've seen a couple of extreme websites where women who hate men hang out. Nothing to do with most ordinary, run of the mill feminists like myself.

@OwlInASack I've told u nothing about myself, u have assumed what best justfies what u want. Way to do exactly what this article says u do with the bitter angle...lmao. but this article is just BS, right? The irony is so thick.

3

I have to say I actually agree. Third wave feminism is just another movement demanding instant change, conformity in all things, and ideological purity. It's continuing to shoot itself in the foot.

Well spoken.

Who will win in the trans vs feminists war?

@Veteran229 which war? Feminist and pro-Trans rights like pretty much everyone I know outside of the Financials services sector that I work in. Shall I beat myself up?

@Veteran229 neither. And that's the problem. They'll continue attacking one another and nothing will get done.

change and conformity in what?

@memorylikeasieve it's a battle for victim points..lol. meanwhile in the real world, we are all suffering.

8

This article is not representative of any feminist I know. It is a gross generalisation in the same vein that 'all muslims are terrorists'. As the sole parent of four wonderful caring grown sons and the daughter of a fantastic father who encouraged me to follow my dreams and not let gender stand in the way of what I wanted to do, I am grateful for the fantastic feminists in my family. The thing about feminists we tend not to be so blinkered in our fight for justice. We fight for all injustice, whether it is asylum seekers, the poor, the disabled, the mentally ill, LGBTIQ rights, racial discrimination. One woman dies a day in my country of domestic violence. This appalls me. Equally appalling is that 7 males a day are committing suicide. I will fight for more education in this area. I want men to feel freedom to be themselves as a result of feminism, not feel threatened. If they want to be a stay at home dad....Go for it. I don't like being at odds with men. I love men. But there is still room for reform to achieve true equal opportunity. I am part of 50% of the community so until government is 50% female I will not feel fairly represented. Every work place I've ever worked in has improved with diversity.

There are many feminist with your same beliefs and I do admire them but just one quick look at the "male tears" stuff and the way any men's right groups are attacked by the feminsts community as a whole as hate groups is only serving to drive division. At the moment we are in an odd phase where part of the feminist groups are ladies from the second wave generation, of which were some amazing women who fought for justice and equality for all, but the other part is the third wave feminists like Clementine and Valenti that are only serving to push people away from the fight with the constant man bashing, misandry, and hate they push. We are at a crossroads and the outcome is still up in the air. I do hope women like Cathy, the article author, and u are the winners of the the divide and people come together but looking at the attitudes of the younger generations I just don't know if that will happen or not.

@jorj but that isn’t true. I know of groups advocating for better services for suicidal young men, prostate and testicle cancer, etc that don’t get attacked by feminists but get supported

All I’ve ever seen of MRA groups is grotesque generalisations of feminists, hatred and a failure to deal misogyny. Denial of the imbalances between the sexes is common there, twisting facts and evidence, rape jokes, and the spawning of the horrific victimhood-embracing violent INCEL movement. The MRA movement seems to be a place of refuge for inadequate bloke who don’t want to accept that their historic and unchallenged privileges are now being challenged

@OwlInASack Thanks for that support Owl-in-a-sack (we must discuss this moniker further but I digress). I would like to think this is the case. I'd like to this was the case. As in every group there are a few fanatics who have a personal axe to grind. On a personal level it took me many many years to overcome my fear of men in general because of child sex abuse from an uncle. The only way forward is to quit generalising and realise that the majority of men and women are good and want equal opportunity for all. In saying that, I think some men just don't 'get' the glass ceiling or how unfair we find the wage discrepancy. Some men don't realise how uncomfortable he can make a woman just by a lewd joke or a wolf whistle. (with my history I used to avoid building sites like you wouldn't believe, I was so self-conscious and nervous). Do you think I''m over reacting Jorj? I'm well over it now and relaxed in both male and female company. I would like the sexes to be friends. 😀 Perhaps I'm an idealist?

@MsDemeanour I wouldn't say over reacting but definitely seeing it for more than what is happening because of biased media pushing the narrative to drive division. The wage gap alone is a dishonest calculation. Women average 35 hours per week while men average 40 so of course EARNINGS aren't gonna be equal. But if any place is paying less per hour, which is equal pay for equal work, we have laws to shut that down. Women that are single in there twenties that work more hours are out earning men now days. Life choices are a huge factor that the left wants to ignore.

[bls.gov]

@MsDemeanour [content.time.com]

Should these women be forced to earn less so that it's equal to men? I don't think so. Just as I don't think older men working more hour on average should make less to make it equal for the women. This is a HUGE topic that one side only want to use one is honest calculation when discussing it. That's why it never goes anywhere.

1

The way I see it, this world has far too many "ists", "isms", and "ives". Me thinks life on this crazy rock would be way more pleasant if more human beings reject associating with titles. The word independent is sufficient enough to describe my stance in life, and individual liberty is my language, nice and easy there.

I'm with u on that one. These groups form the echo chambers and just drive us all apart ad pit us against each other for the benefit of very few.

4

"Everyone believes in equality of the sexes..."

A person can only write that if they don't even have a 101 level of understanding what women go through.

JeffB Level 6 Dec 2, 2018

A woman wrote the article and said that. Are u claiming a woman don't understand what women go through even as u sit there being a man? Pretty arrogant of ya.

@jorj I get the feeling that you've heard that argument many times and have been waiting to throw it back at someone.
Anyway, if you, as a guy, have not heard men, usually when women are around, talk about how they do not consider women equal, you would have had a pretty unique experience. Clearly not everyone believes in equality!
I work in IT and I watch how other women get treated, as if they don't know as much as the men. It's hard to believe you don't see it in whatever you do.
I could go on, but it seems unlikely you actual want an intellectual discussion. This comes across as a troll or straight denialism.

@JeffB Your point about IT is well-taken, it is one of the most strident remaining Old Boy's Clubs, albeit with a more hip veneer. In most companies it's still > 90% men, and women don't feel welcome at all.

I take some pride in planting the idea in my stepdaughter's head that IT desperately needs women. Unfortunately the only women who will survive in IT at present are those, like my stepdaughter, who are hard-as-nails bitches to begin with, who would as soon gouge your eye out as look you in it. It takes a certain kind of person to be the pioneer with the arrows in their backs. And then along comes someone and points to them and claims this feminism thing has gone too far, when in fact, it hasn't gone far enough in most respects.

@jorj as women disagree on this then yes - some
women do not know or deny the reality of what many many women go through

@JeffB I agree not everyone believes in equality and m pointing out that very fact on this post. I do know if men were so horrible we would just never have let women have any rights. Something that's looked over all the time. It took men voting to change things for them to change because men did have control. Modern feminism ha went crazy tho.

@jorj Who is saying al men are horrible? You can keep fighting that straw man jorj if you must, but it exists in your head only.

That isn't feminism. It isn't any feminist I know. It is a tiny minority of rad fems. Trying to tar all feminists with that brush just tells us about you and your insecurities: it's got nothing to do with the reality of ordinary folks just wanting equality and pointing out bad behaviour.

@OwlInASack refer to kill all men and male tears post to see who says all men re horrible. Google it and u can find numerous feminists saying it

@OwlInASack and the white male privilege things is painting all white men based on the elite 1% stats so welcome to the game u play.

@jorj just like women are not a monolith group, neither is feminism. There are all types, like some that think sex work should be illegal and some that think it's an expression of female power. That's just an example. But to criticize feminism in general is just silly.
It's like you want some feminist to apologise to you for some mean things said to you.
If you had a rep for sticking up for women when they have to deal with the bullshit they have to deal with, you might find feminist willing to take you serious when you say you have strategic concerns. But if all you do is criticize, and downplay the issues women face, I imagine it will be hard to take you seriously.

@JeffB u have no clue about my real life rep and who or what I've stood up for. I'm pointing out legit critiscism to the feminist movement and why it is losing support in an online discussion forum but all I get are personal attacks and assumptions thrown at me even when sourcing things, thus proving my point even more. None of u defending feminism has offered any real counter to prove me wrong, u have just repeated the same old things and done exactly what I'm pointing out. The fact u can't even see that shows u just don't want to try to make a better word for people, u want just total submission to your agenda. Therefore, the feminist movement is dieing and can't be saved because people refuse to self reflect on any of it. They are right and nothing can be said to open their minds. At least it will go out on it's shield I guess.

@jorj it's true I don't know your rep, out side this form.
I did counter your points. I focused on a single point, "Everyone believes in equality of the sexes..." And said that is counter to reality. You conceited the point eventually. The only other point I made was that feminism is not a monolith group, so any criticism at feminism is silly. Now if you want to name names, point to specific feminist or group, then maybe an intelligent conversation could be had.
It's true, I doubt your intentions, because of your rep (in this form) and the way you stated off the conversation.
It should be noted, that the feminist I know, do criticize aspects of this or that feminist or this or that group. But people who only address feminism to criticize...

7

Ugh, I couldn't even finish that load of sorry bullshit. Yes, there are people who take it too far, but just like we non believers like to point out to Christians, equality can feel a lot like oppression to those with privilege.
Definition of feminism. 1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the SEXES. Not "women are better than men who are nothing but oppressors." ?

Remi Level 7 Dec 2, 2018

Wow, a little critiscism is intolerable even coming from a woman but the crticism thrown out by your movement is just all hunky doory, huh? Your response is exactly the kind of thing that pushes even women away from the movement. Not all women, in fact very few, want to see their sons, husband's, and fathers talked down on and treated the way feminism has been doing. Go ahead and just ignore it and continue to lose and keep on pointing the finger at eeryone else. I'm offering constructive criticism but I guess that is out of the question in the minds of some. They are infallible and correct even as they continue to bleed support dry and destroy a once great movement. Good luck is all I can tell ya. People who do realize problems women face and want to help are nothing but scum unless they give total submission is the perception they see and people act shocked that this kind of rhetoric served to give us Trump.

Well, if you didn't finish it, then you missed:

"Perhaps mocking and berating men is not the way to show that the feminist revolution is about equality and that they have a stake in the new game. The message that feminism can help men, too — by placing equal value on their role as parents or by encouraging better mental health care and reducing male suicide — is undercut by gender warriors like Australian pundit Clementine Ford, whose “ironic misandry” often seems entirely non-ironic and who has angrily insisted that feminism stands only for women. Gibes about “male tears” — for instance, on a T-shirt sported by writer Jessica Valenti in a photo taunting her detractors — seem particularly unfortunate if feminists are serious about challenging the stereotype of the stoic, pain-suppressing male. Dismissing concerns about wrongful accusations of rape with a snarky “What about the menz” is not a great way to show that women’s liberation does not infringe on men’s civil rights. And telling men that their proper role in the movement for gender equality is to listen to women and patiently endure anti-male slams is not the best way to win support.

Valenti and others argue that man-hating cannot do any real damage because men have the power and privilege. Few would deny the historical reality of male dominance. But today, when men can lose their jobs because of sexist missteps and be expelled from college over allegations of sexual misconduct, that’s a blinkered view, particularly since the war on male sins can often target individuals’ trivial transgressions. Take the media shaming of former “Harry Potter” podcaster Benjamin Schoen, pilloried for some mildly obnoxious tweets (and then an insufficiently gracious email apology) to a woman who had blocked him on Facebook after an attempt at flirting. While sexist verbal abuse toward women online is widely deplored, there is little sympathy for men who are attacked as misogynists, mocked as “man-babies” or “angry virgins,” or even smeared as sexual predators in Internet disputes."

There is a very real sense in which women now have the privilege in the workplace and schools, in fact in all walks of life, and that is that they get to decide when a man's advances are acceptable and when they're not; and this can change in a heartbeat. Women get to flirt with men if they choose and then men take their chances returning the attention. What is intended as innocent flirting and was thought to be welcome can be reported as sexual harassment and cost someone their job. At least this is the case for the ground-level employees like me, which I always have been and always will be.

@Paul4747 What on earth are you on about ? "There is a very real sense in which women now have the privilege in the workplace and schools, in fact in all walks of life, and that is that they get to decide when a man's advances are acceptable and when they're not; "

What is wrong with this? Can you please tell me why anyone should have to put up with advances, innuendo , rude jokes at the work place? It's about respect. The workplace is no place for flirting. Don't you have work to do?

@Paul4747 women like Clementine and Valenti are pushed to the forefront and given huge platforms and are cheered on by feminists but once their misandrist ways are pointed out it's always back to the "all of us aren't like that", and I agree they all aren't, but I don't see any feinist groups welcoming men's issues in to the discussions. They either ignore the mens issues at best or they silence them with claims of sexism and hate then shut us up with a check your male privilege ending at worst, even tho most men honestly care for women and are willing to fight with them if only things werent so hostile toward anything other than total submission to only issues women face. Male suicide takes a back seat to fat shaming if u honestly look at the rhetoric pushed. If men should be feminist because they are about fighting injustices for both sexes I would love to see just one issue men face being brought up at the feminist rallies. I've asked for it time and time again only to have the person I'm talking to abandon the conversation after telling me I'm the sexist for even speaking of an issue men face.

@MsDemeanour So, you ignored my very next sentence? "Women get to flirt with men if they choose and then men take their chances returning the attention." Both genders play the same games, but only one is routinely accused of harassment. It's assumed that men welcome the attention and in fact are the aggressors.

"Through work" is the 3rd most common way people meet their significant other. It's a fact of life. It's where people spend 40 to 80 hours of every week. Like it or not, it happens. "What I'm on about" is that men and women are treated unequally in this arena. Men are assumed to be predators, regardless of who actually made the first move.

@jorj you seem to be convinced about what you think feminism is so why do you keep banging your head against the wall? I've seen plenty of feminists bringing up men's issues such as toxic masculinity and social inhibitions on men not being "allowed" to be any emotion other than angry or to be nurturing etc. All of the issues facing women are issues we all need to work on together. They are all connected, it's not women barging over men and forcing them to submit. If someone is acting like that, they are not a true feminist.

@Remi feminist seem covinved everything is against them so why do u all bang your head against the wall? When umsilence men with the privilege attack because they ask a hard question it shows u don't care at all about men's issues but only care about what u want men to be for your own benefits. Our issues can't be discussed completely by women just as women's can't be discussed by men only but that is the feminist game plan.

@Remi it's proven when u push for MRA groups to be labeled hate groups

@jorj do you enjoy putting words in people's mouths?

equality can feel a lot like oppression to those with privilege

What a great point...

@jorj Show me an MRA group that isn't full of women haters? Any one will do...

@jorj, @Paul4747

Men are assumed to be predators, regardless of who actually made the first move.

I've rarely seen that assumption made. I've seen a lot of predatory men though - and the occasional predatory woman.

I don't see a 'move' being seen as predatory unless it's - well - predatory.

I've got a mate who is just about to be convicted of sexual assault. He got drunk and groped a woman, who quite reasonably is pressing charges. Telling the story, I cannot find any woman who doesn't identify here with the victim: they've all experienced it. Predatory males sexually assaulting them.

And MRAs trying to diminish their experiences. Or telling them how to be better, like those lovely old fashioned feminists who weren't so uppity in demanding so many of those inappropriate male privileges got torn down.

@OwlInASack just watch Cassie jayes documentary, the red pill. Then do simple research and u will find many MRA groups that don't hate women

@OwlInASack here is your stuff showing men are thought of as predators

@Remi I don't see me putting words in to your mouth anywhere, what did I say that did that?

@OwlInASack I didn't try to diminish anyone's experience; but if we're going with anecdotal evidence, let's use mine too. I was accused of harassment at the age of 18 after a work-study colleague (read: a fellow student) agreed to go out with me, then got a new boyfriend before we actually decided on a time or place. Rather than just tell me the truth, she told our boss I was harassing her. Without even asking my side of the story, our boss assumed I was guilty and fired me. I suppose I was lucky this was back in the 1980s, or it's likely I would have been expelled as well.

Many women are genuinely victims. And some women use their gender as a tool to gain influence in the workplace or socially. And some use accusations of harassment against male colleagues and supervisors they don't get along with. All these things are true, because I've seen them all. In some cases, one woman can be all three at once.

@jorj the video is terrible jorj. It’s premise is that feminism exists because people are more likely
To believe women are victims. The utter simplicity of that argument is laughable. There’s a guy who is professionally dedicated to opposing ‘feminism’ without the slightest clue about what it actually is. Sorry - but that seems to be quite like yourself.

Men posting videos about feminism and getting it completely wrong? Ironic? Massively. Surprising? Not at all

@jorj, @Paul4747

Many women are genuinely victims. And some women use their gender as a tool to gain influence in the workplace or socially. And some use accusations of harassment against male colleagues and supervisors they don't get along with. All these things are true, because I've seen them all. In some cases, one woman can be all three at once.

I genuinely don’t understand the point: is there anyone denying any of this?

@OwlInASack believe all women is a denial of it. It says women won't lie and never use their influence to advance their position, seek vengeance, or cover their ass when in a pinch.

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