Agnostic.com

32 3

Why do pro-choice women not support a mans right to reproductivity?

I have seen many women that tell men that if u lay down with the woman and she gets pregnant u need to MAN UP and handle your responsibility but at the same time when I counter with the fact that she chose to lay down with the man as well it goes all to hell from there. So why do the women who claim they want equality do a total 180 when it comes to this? how does allowing women the right to abortion but telling men that he needs to man up when he didnt want a child equate equality of the sexes? Im pro-choice but at the same time I can't be a sexist and not extend the right to reproduction to men as well. if u are a feminist and claim u want equality I have to ask how u balance all this out to think u are being reasonable on the topic if u want special rights for women but not for men.

EDIT : please notice I am PRO-CHOICE cuz as the talks have been goin it seems like ppl ignore that fact cuz they can't form a good argument around the fact that im for womens rights to body autonomy. im just for equality as well and think men deserve the right to "abort" when they arent rdy for kids for any reason at all just like abortion is used by women. that is the issue here, not that women should be forced to carry the child. I would never want to force that on a woman.

2nd Edit : Male "abortion" is the right for men to decide for himself whether he is gonna be a father or not. In no way am I sayin the man gets to decide for the woman the way that the situation is now where women get to decide for men. So if your response involves the idea that men can tell the women to abort or kep the child then it is useless here. She decides for herself and he decides for himself, and if both want to keep it then so be it, if only the woman wants to keep it then cool, she can keep it, or if the man only wants to keep then oh well, its her body and her choice. So for the 3rd time her...I AM PRO-CHOICE for women.

jorj 8 Feb 25

Post a comment Reply Add Photo

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

32 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

27

Biologically speaking, a man gains paternal responsibility by contributing the sperm. The women gains maternal responsibility by providing both the egg and the uterus. This is why there are all sorts of legal constructs around surrogacy and adoptions where the couple provides funding before the birth of the child. Equality of the sexes is a moot point here altogether. If we reproduced by eggs, I am certain that feminists and the American legal system would be happy to hand them to the father to incubate. Forcing a woman to go through 9 months of pregnancy, hours of labor, delivery and permanent changes to her body is tantamount to slavery. Give science another decade or two and the conversation can shift. Until then, attempting to "equalize" reproduction is foolish and attempting to use our technological inability to equalize reproduction as a club to fight against the rest of the equal rights fight is just wrong.

Very well said.

18 years of child support is slavery as well

@jorj That's what you commit to when you contribute the sperm, so it's not slavery, but indentured servitude. That's what a women commits to when she carries a child to term. She cannot just stop taking care of the child after that point and that's not slavery either.

@DJVJ311 adoption.

forcing men to be fathers but allowing women abortion is nothing but sexism. if women can be let off the hook just cause then men should be able to as well or u don't believe in equality. amazes me when i meet men who defend women to this lvl. makes me think they were raised without many men in thier lives. no insult at all cuz i also was raised by a single mother and sister with no men in my life either. but i see thru the BS.

@jayneonacobb Changes to breasts, vagina, hormones, 9 months of pregnancy, labor... There are many costs

@jorj No one is forcing you to be a father. You can just cut a check. I'm not defending women. I am providing a rational case for body autonomy. I have a father and was raised in a full family, so I'm not sure why you're projecting. The issue is bodily autonomy and how it relates to choice in reproduction. Your body is not on the line for the pregnancy or abortion, so your part of the decision making is done.

@DJVJ311 "She cannot just stop taking care of the child after that point and that's not slavery either." Thats what i was referring to. She can, many do.

"He consented to sex, not fatherhood", really? Sex - parenthood = BIRTH CONTROL. If you don't use it, then step up to your responsibility (women AND men). That supposed anti-abortionists are also anti birth control is lunacy. I think they LIKE forcing couples toward the abortion corner to keep their
damn culture war going.

DJV - its not projection of anything cuz i didnt accuse u of it. i said its men that make statements like that that usually come from sinlge mother homes.

@jayneonacobb child abandonment and endangerment are immoral and illegal.

@TiberiusGracchus From a purely biological perspective, following insemination, does the male body have any connection to the actual process? From a biological perspective, he is completely detached. His bodily autonomy is not impaired at all. From the female perspective, regardless of the decision made, her body has consequences, so she is still party to the decisions. She is "responsible" either way, but should be granted rights based solely on the grounds of body autonomy and the person hood of the zygote/fetus.

As the original poster asked "why" there is a difference. This is why. He phrased it in a way to bias and lead a response but if you look at the nature of his actual question, this is what it boils down to. The general American system of ethics tells him to "man up" because of this inherent difference in male and female involvement with mammalian pregnancy. This biological difference cannot be decoupled from the question until pregnancies are decoupled from the female. I think science will be there in a few more decades.

@DJVJ311 I agree, putting a child up for adoption isn't though, unless that is a form of avoiding the reprocussions of one's actions.

You could just as well say that women having to carry a child to term with all of its many consequences is “sexism.” It’s actually just biology.
Women choosing not to carry a pregnancy is not “off the hook.” Abortion vs childbearing is a decision with its own consequences that, in many cases, women bear alone. @jorj

well jennifer, if u feel like women have the right to abort just off the fact that they arent ready to be a parent then i don't see how u balance the idea that men shouldnt have that option as well and say u are for equality. i am not pro-life....im for EQUAL pro-choice

@jorj I have explained why women have a right to choice but men don't several times. Are you going to respond to the actual point raised or just whine about what your position is?

@jayneonacobb You have not responded to the risks of abortion, the privacy of medical procedures, the freedom to medical decision, permanent bodily changes, pregnancy and labor. Those are the factors that grant the woman a choice in the matter and do not have any applicability to the male.

u arent addressing the point that women can abort just because she isnt ready only, medical reason abortions are not the point to this topic.

how do u say u are for equality but think it is ok for women to abort cuz they are not financially rdy but turn around and say men who arent financially ready need to suck it up and get ready period.

and furthermore, women know all these risks and can do what they tell men....if u arent ready for all the risk then don't have sex. but never should we ever tell them to make rational decisions right?

No one is forcing you to be a father. You can just cut a check

u said that like that allowed men to be off the hook....the cut the check is the point here. im tryin to see where u made any valid point to my question by lookin back thru your responses but so far nothing

so ive read every single thing u have said and the Tiberius countered u already so that is why i skipped on along and didnt respond to ya. and im all for women having the right to abort so i don't quite understand why u telling me the reasons why the women abort answers the question of how is it equality when both parties know the risk, both parties consent to the risk, then when u get to the point that u face the question of parenthood cuz of mutual agreements on everything leadin up to this point all of a sudden women should have a special rule that lets them off the hook just because but men should man up and just accept that an unwanted baby is here and he has to take care of it financially. its amazing that u can't see the irony in that. im supposed to see women as my equal but when it comes to this issue im suppposed to treat them as inferior beings cuz they got pregnant and i need to support her in any and all ways that she wants when everything leading up to this point was all about consent from two responsible adults. in fact u havent explained why they get the special rule but basically told me the many reason why women would want to abort. u have yet to make one single argument on why men should have to man up for her choice to keep the child if he don't want it.

so now that i have explained why u havent give one reason as to why women should have this special rule are u gonna try to give a reason now or just wither away? u want to say im whining about my position and act like u gave some earth shattering wisdom to us here that i won't address when all u have done is tell us the risks women have for having sex. not one time have u justified men being forced by law to be responsible for the risk he took but u allow the woman the right to dodge the responsibility she took with her risk.

recap......
women know risk - check
men know risk - check
man and woman consent to sex - check
sex turns out to make a pregnancy - check
both parties knew the risk and still took it and now face what to do.
man says he don't want the child therefore tellin the woman that if u want to keep this child u are on your own because i don't want it. woman decides to keep the child knowing he don't want it. at that point it should be her responsibility 100% because the man told her he don't want it because a woman has the right to not keep a child for the simple reason that she don't want it. but instead she has the power of the court to force him to financially be on the hook for her decision to keep the child all the while knowing all the risk she put on herself. so why should the man be on the hook for her choice to keep the child? in no way is the woman on the hook if a man wants to keep the child and i understand why 100%....it is her body and decision if she wants to be a parent or not. now can u explain why men don't have a choice at all and show me how that is treating ppl equal? i appreciate u tellin me all the things that women know about risk but u act as tho u gave a reason why she should have the right to end it just because but men have no right at all and have to accept what she wants at this point when everything leading up to this point was about risk assessment and consent. now men have no option of consent or anything and that is why the abortion issue is sexist 100%.

@jorj There is no special rule. Biologically men do not have an option after insemination. They are completely isolated from the decision by biology. Now that you have created a child, you can go get a vasectomy or castration. Those are your choices. Until such time as women are separated from pregnancy, granting them the right to choose is a matter of body autonomy. There is nothing special.

If we reproduced by other means, a woman would be just as "on the hook" as men are, because body autonomy would not come into play. Do you understand the terms body autonomy and how it is involved in this?

still u offer nothing....lmao do u not understand the question here? validate how women who know the risks and contimue anyway have an out if the risk becomes bad but men don't have that option. if u want to keep up with the non-sense then im done with ya. if after insemination men don't have the right then same has to apply to women cause we ALL know the risks and we all say we want equality. u just posturing for the ladies here hopin to get some attention or what??? lmao i suspect that is what all this all.

@jorj Do you not understand that the medical condition of pregnancy has different implications for males and females? Did you come to a site that has a higher than average concentration of intellectuals and attempt to phrase your quest for some sort of conscience clearing affirmation in some thinly veiled attempt to sound intellectual and unbiased?

After insemination, the woman has continued risks on both paths. The man does not. Men are no longer at a biological risk. You are looking for someone to validate your sense of equality that is as bizarre as stretching or surgically shrinking people so that they are all equal heights. Equality from a moral perspective involves treating each situation in such a way that ensures agency to the appropriate people. Therefor it again becomes an issue of body autonomy.

Do you understand the terms body autonomy and how it is involved in this?

yes i understand that but none of that has any relevance because we all know the consequences and we all choice to risk it. women get out of it if they want to but men dont. can u not understand that i keep on sayin i don't want to take womens rights away to get abortions. i just want equality in the playing filed of men being able to symbolically abort their child, as in they don't have to be any part of the child at all if they choose not to. the women know those risks and still take the chance so its time they take responsibility for their actions and quit relyin on men to be forced to take care of it in any way at all if he don't want to if they are gonna have the right to do that like they do now. so once again u offer nothing. can u not read the recap and breakdown of the whole topic. its nice that u know the womens risk but u still don't offer any reason for why u are a sexist that thinks men should be on the hook for the womens decisions to keep a child that he don't want. i guess this topic is out of your range or something...take care, u are just a record on repeat that offers absolutely nothing to this conversation.

@jorj If you send someone to the store to buy something and while they are buying the thing for you, even if you change your mind, it's your responsibility. Much like that, from the time of insemination until the time of birth, a male is not party to the decisions. A woman is, because she is biologically attached. It is a very simple issue about body autonomy and the biological nature of mammalian pregnancy.

Do you understand the terms body autonomy and how it is involved in this?

still nothing of substance, i agree that women have the right to full body autonomy. u must be a child or your reading comprehension is very lacking. this makes about the 5th time or something that i have had to address this same non-relevant point u keep tryin to make. i don't want to choose anything for the woman. she can do anything she wants.

@jorj So you are having trouble understanding how male body autonomy is not an issue in mammalian pregnancy?

no, not a bit. the whole thing is irrelevant to equality of reproduction rights. if a woman can have a choice then a man should have a choice. biology has no validity on the question im asking. this is about ppl knowing the risks and takin them and then who has what rights when the risks becomes reality. women choose to do all the things the same as men knowing all the risk so each should have equal rights on how their future is controlled. either ALL have the right to walk away from parenthood or none have the right if u want equality. can't let one have the right to walk away and the other have the right to MAN UP cuz the woman chooses to keep a child that isnt wanted by a man. so ill leave it here cuz im sure u will just push this same ol tired irrelevant point back again.

@DJVJ311 you clearly have not read my responses in full. I am pro-choice, I just know that men need legal protection in this instance.

@jorj So you are completely discrediting the differences that mammalian biology forces on the situation. That is why you refuse to acknowledge that women are both biologically affected by abortion and pregnancy. A woman cannot walk away from a pregnancy, she can only elect to undergo a medical procedure. That is the thing that you refuse to accept or fail to understand. Equality of agency requires that the man's input ends at insemination and that a woman's ends at birth or termination.

@jayneonacobb I have read everything on this thread. Did you mean somewhere else?
I appreciate commentary and debate from rational people, so I am sorry if I missed something. This thread, this entire post seems to be one person whining about a personal situation in an attempt to find some sort of absolution.

Men need legal protection from sexual coercion. That is a given. However, sexual coercion aside, I am addressing the time between fertilization and birth/termination. During that time the man is not biologically connected to the situation, which means he is basically removed from the equation until birth. The risks and consequences of mammalian reproduction differ for males and females. Therefor in order to preserve body autonomy and equality of agency in medical decisions, the woman is entitled to choices the man is not.

I am not expecting the op to ever respond to or acknowledge the biological difference and the fairness of maintaining agency, but I challenge you to explain on his behalf. We are talking about what decisions people are allowed to make before birth and what reasoning is used to justify their right to those choices. Adoption and child abandonment and all of that is after birth.

@DJVJ311 "the man isnt biologically connected" it is his biologically produced sperm which was needed to help create that life which connects him biologically to the fetus. That is exactly how most mamillian reproduction works. So I ask again, why shouldn't there be equal protection for men regarding their reproductive rights?

i have acknowledge that time and time again and told u that that is a RISK that they take when they CHOOSE to have sex, that is not sayin how that is equal to them gettin special treatment cuz feminist say men have to be accountable cuz he knew the RISK. see how that makes your claim invalid.....its part of the risk, not the equality of reproduction rights. u are on a whole other topic but if u want to talk about the negatives of child birth and biology we can we can do that but i started this thread about equal rights. WOW! can't belive im even still tryin to get thru to u.

your style of debate is one of the biggest reasons that donald trump is president right now. and i hope u are proud of yourself for it.

@jayneonacobb The man is genetically connected to the fetus, not biologically. There is a difference in the situation that should be obvious. Perhaps "physically" connected is the better terminology. Regardless, the female is "physically" connected to the situation. So although she has the same responsibility based on genetic connection that the man does, she has other entanglements with the pregnancy. This is why I said when pregnancy can be separated from the female, the situation changes. Until then, it's just not a situation where both parties have equal involvement, responsibility or choice. Does that make any more sense?

@jorj I agree. Donald Trump is president because certain individuals can't engage in an intellectual debate and others won't pander and say whatever that party wants to hear. Donald Trump is president because on some dark corners of the internet, people cheer for your inflammatory and insulting rhetoric.

Also, you're not trying to get through to me. You are trying to use emotional language and horrible grammar to try and get someone to concede an intellectual point so that you can feel better about a personal situation you have probably gotten yourself involved with. On the other hand, you have asked a "why" question and I have repeatedly explained that answer. Instead of engaging with the answer, you throw other random unrelated things into the discussion, so I continue to rephrase the answer until it is in language you can understand.

@DJVJ311 not really as it does not answer the question.

@TiberiusGracchus hear hear!

@jorj at this point it should be her responsibility 100% because he told her he don't want it.

The father can give up parental rights, does this not affect his having to "cut a check"? Forgive my ignorance of family law...

signing away parental rights does not get the child support lifted, it just means u can never visit or interact and such with the child but still they will fore the money cuz if they don't the state is on the hook if the mother refuse to work and cover it all herself.

@DJYJ311 - u insist on tryin to make this out to be that i am just a bitter person cuz of situation i got myself in to but u are just 100% wrong. ive never got a person pregnant because i actually do know the risk and protect myself. if a woman isnt cool with abortion fthen i don't pursue anything with her. thats called responsible adult decisions based on risks of a situation, u know, the very thing u don't think women should have, the thing called equality to men i know u have to make me out to be something im not to validate your sexism but it isnt gonna work. but u still offer nothing for the question at hand cuz there is no answer other than giving men the right to opt out if he wants cuz that is what women have and equality means BOTH get the same rights. sad when your whole logic has to project things on tot he other person just so u can make a point but if u are gonna do that atleast know what u are talkin about.

@jorj What am I projecting? More importantly when you asked a question about definitions relating to sexism, do you think it's a debate when you just accuse people of being the word you were asking about the definition of? You expressed a desire to understand how the stance that a person's right to choice ends when they are no longer biologically connected to the situation. I have answered that several times.

i guess its not so much u projecting as it is u are assuming my life and experiences in it by sayin i have had a bad experience. i havent had any experience with pregnancy first hand cuz i am responsible for my actions and know to protect myself cuz that is what is expected of men. its the sexist ppl that think women shouldnt be treated like adults that can't weigh the pros and cons of something out and make a wise decision. and where have i asked for a definition of sexism? and all u have done is tell me the biology of what pregnancy is now if u could just get past the RISKS of sex that women should know and think out the consequences of before she has unsafe sex and get to the equality of reproduction rights we might be able to get somewhere. u tell men they know the RISKS so they need to suck it up and that is the sexist part, cuz u don't expect the women to suck it up when they also know the risk. the fact that u keep ignoring that and dodgin the question proves u can't give a good reason to justify your sexism.

@jorj Since men are biologically detached, they no longer have variables that influence their decision. Women are biologically attached so they have the right to choose. Is it immoral for a woman to use abortion as a simple birth control mechanism just because they feel like it? Yes.

However, they must have the right to make the decision because they are still biologically attached and have consequences for both abortion and pregnancy. If we grant that right and then judge them for the choice, it leads to excuse making and is absolutely non productive. Therefore the appropriate moral position is what I've repeatedly explained. Women are entitled to the choice between insemination and birth. Men are not.

and no where am i taking away a womans right to an abortion and never would want to. u keep ignoring that like u got something here. i say men get to choose for their self the same as women. u want men to be the servants to anything women choose and that is sexism. sorry but tellin me about biology and the risk of pregnancy for women doesnt touch the equality discussion and im tired of reading the same old irrelevant stuff over and over. im startin to think i was wrong, u arent sexist against men, u are sexist against women because u think women are so weak they can't even ask a man what he would do if an unwanted pregnancy happened then make a rational decision whether or not to sleep with him and risk it with a man that is not compatible with her on the issue of abortion. u think women are just so unintelligent that they can't make rational decisions about their sex life from the sounds of it and im the type that think women are just as intelligent and rational as men and think they should have the equality they deserve in life. men are expected to make rational decisions about who he sleeps with so he don't get trapped in a situation he don't want to be in and i think women are capable of that too. if a man tells her he would want an abortion and she is the type that would not abort her child then she can always sleep with a different man that would be a good father instead of making men that don't want to be fathers do it anyway and in turn cut down on the horrible life a child lives when they are in a single parent home. i know all about being raised in a single parent home cuz i was and it is mental abuse on a child. your stance on this issue is what gets many women and children stuck in single parent houses and suffer and struggle to get by. women are smart enough to know that if she wouldnt get any help from the father by force of law that it would be stupid to sleep with a guy who don't want to be a father and she might be more responsible with birth control and the men she sleeps with. instead u think women are total sluts that can't control their own sex drives enough to say no to a horrible man that would leave her and her child abandoned so she needs a way out later if she wants or she needs to be able to lock a man away in jail if he don't want to be part of the childs life in any way.

15

Do you have this conversation with the women you sleep with? If you absolutely don't want children why would you leave it to chance? Get a vasectomy and then you never have to worry about it.

Pregnancy is hard on women, but so is abortion. Every woman has to weigh her choices. Personally I always used BCP, but it doesn't work for every woman. Some women use the IUD, again, doesn't work for every woman and all methods have some health risks. The only method that works 100% of the time is abstinence, but I don't think you want to go that route.

So, if your sperm has created a child with a woman and she doesn't want to terminate the pregnancy you are stuck. You were complicit in creating that child. You had options to not create the child and you chose against them. I'm sorry, you played you pay.

I feel sorry for the child you have just created. I can think of few things worse than to be unwanted.

Shouldn't the man have the right to choose without reprocussion if he wants to raise the child or not if the woman has the right to choose to abort or not?

using the government to force someone to do something against there will is oppression and child support is that. if men use condoms and it breaks he did his part for protection, he deserves the right to abort just like women do. and yes i do have this conversation with women i sleep with. if they are the type that can't understand why i say this stuff even tho i support their choice 100% then its obvious she is the type that sees men as a tool for her to use for whatever she sees fit and that she is extremely sexist in her thoughts. sorry that equality means women have to think out the consequences of their actions like men do but that is what it is. u can't get all the pros of mens lives and by pass the negatives and claim u are for equality at all.

@jayneonacobb Choose NOT to create the child. Be proactive.Don't let it happen. Get a vasectomy and then never have to worry about it again.

@jayneonacobb The woman's choice, either way, has repercussions.

@HippieChick58 get a hysterectomy if you don't want to get knocked up. See, you can make all the arguments you want. That doesn't mean it isn't a two way street.

Did you enter into a sexual relationship with the woman willingly? Did you deposit your seed where it could potentially hit fertile ground? You have admitted that you know that condoms are not 100% effective, and there is no form of birth control that is aside from abstinence or sterilization. If you have chosen not be to be sterilized then every time you have sex with a woman you are taking the chance she will become pregnant,and if that happens your have a legal and financial responsibility to the child you create if she chooses to carry that child. Once you have released your sperm into her body it is her choice. You relinquished control. Personally I cannot imagine wanting to have a lifelong connection to someone who doesn't care about the child he may have created. However it does happen. Save yourself and the world a ton of grief, prevent that from happening.

get a hysterectomy if pregnancy is such a risk to your life and never have to worry about it again.

same things and questions can be switched ot apply to women but if u do that then u are a sexist. women should never have to care about things, they shoudl just have men take care of all the responsibility and let her just sex it up and live free spirited, right? everything is always mens fault or responsibility when it comes to feminist positions anymore. todays feminists are the most sexist ppl to exist in the usa over the last 100 years,.

@jayneonacobb an invasive surgical procedure just for your pleasure? I think not. Besides, do you know what a hysterectomy will do to a woman's body? And if you had any idea of how a woman's body works you'd know a hysterectomy is over kill for preventing pregnancy. Again, my body, my choice. I choose NOT to have a hysterectomy, and most doctors will NOT do a hysterectomy on a young woman if it is not medically necessary. We're talking about 6 weeks recovery for a hysterectomy, it isn't a simple procedure. I did choose a tubal ligation when I was sure I did not want more children. It was done when I delivered my third and last child. A vasectomy is an outpatient procedure with a short recovery time. You're in charge and then you can't knock any woman up. Win win for us all.

@jorj I took responsibility for my reproductive choices and I only had babies when I chose to have babies. All my pregnancies were planned. Sadly there are women who don't. I am not the average woman, I never have been and I'm proud of that.. However, as deplorable as my sisters may be, when you let loose your sperm you let loose control. If you don't want to take that risk, eliminate the risk. Take your swimmers out of action. You still get to play, that way you won't have to pay. A vasectomy is an our or so with the doctor and maybe a week out of commission, but isn't that small price to pay for peace of mind?

@jorj Men who think like you do need to stop playing the poor little prince role and let a physician touch your sacs for a vasectomy. Take the risk and if the "baby bug" hits you too hard later have it reversed. MUCH simpler than a hysterectomy JFC!!! Talk about sexist.

@HippieChick58 I'm just saying that if men have to keep it in their pants, so do women. Dont want a kid? Take precautions. I understand that it is the woman's choice, but I don't understand why men are financially responsible for a child they do not want. Also I do not understand why if the woman wants to abort why the man doesn't get compensation for therapy bills.

@jayneonacobb Because he got what he signed up for when he finished intercourse. After that point all the risk and suffering is on the woman. If he wants a kid he and the last woman he was with didn't he should find a woman who does want one.

@Pernbronze and what if she lies to him? My ex got an abortion without my knowledge. She had told me that she wanted kids with me after we bought a house. I bought that house and we tried to have a child together. She backed out after she was already pregnant. She left, stuck me with all the bills and fucked off to heroin-Ville.

and all these get clipped for men comments just show u still expect men to be responsible for everything and u don't want the accountability and responsibility of being treated equally a s man is. u all WOMAN UP for a change. women asked for us to treat them the same and now that we do u all hate it. men never have had this fairy tale patriarchy easy life that women wanna act like. in fact it was just as bad for men thru the years as women. if u hit your wife in the past u were punished severely but if u were the one gettin hit by your wife u were ridiculed. woman have had tons more power in the past than women will ever admit cuz it takes away a fraction of that victim status. i mean if u all want us to treat u like children we can but its the women that have insisted on being treated as equals. welcome to equality and with that u also get the same amount of responsibility for YOUR actions as men do. YOU all choose to have sex just like we do. now its the time of history where u have to be held accountable for your actions cuz u have wanted this forever, right?

@jayneonacobb Well sounds like your only option either way was find a different woman who wants kids.

@jayneonacobb That sucks dude. I've wanted kids since before I knew what that entailed, since I was 12. My ex wife said she wanted kids and never meant it. That being said, that is the immoral act she committed. That and lying to you about the abortion as a means of manipulation. The choice, however, was hers to make.

@DJVJ311 thank you for your kind words. it was, but if it had gone the other way I would be legally and financially responsible for a child I didn't want. See the problem here?

@Pernbronze didn't know until it was too late. Sometimes that happens. I have dated since then. My point is that if she can abort, I shouldn't be legally or financially responsible if I get a woman pregnant. They can choose to end or deny a life, I can choose to not support that life.

@jayneonacobb As long as you are not financially responsible for the abortion it works out because then you have just as much put into it as masturbating into a tissue.

@Pernbronze I'm talking about responsibility for the child, not the abortion. Her choice, her bill.

@jayneonacobb Usually if you say from the very start you don't want the kid and made an effort to prevent conception and make your court appearances and give up all rights to ever seeing or inquiring about the child then you won't have to pay child support.

@Pernbronze usually isn't a guarantee of legal protection.

First: babies do not get started solo. Each party has responsibility for the creation of that life. If you do not prevent conception it is likely to happen. I chose to start with the assumption that it WILL happen. If you don't want a pregnancy to happen YOU need to work 100% against it happening. After that seed is spilled is too late. It is totally out of your control.

Pregnancy affects a woman much more than a man, that is irrefutable. Abortion is not necessarily available on demand. Not to mention the possible complications and the limits of time. Our government is working to end abortions. It is a surgical procedure and not without risk. Each woman has to make that decision herself because it is going to affect her for the rest of her life. Yes, your 10 seconds of pleasure could be a lifetime of pain for the woman.

So she chooses to carry to term. You helped create that child, you are therefore responsible for the upkeep of that child. Your 10 seconds of pleasure is likely to be 20+ years of expenses, not to mention the hell that child is going through with you as a father. It isn't like childbirth is a picnic for the woman either. It is 6 to 8 weeks for recovery not to mention a lifetime of changes to her body.

So save everyone the heartache and the hell. Don't let your 10 seconds of pleasure make a mess out of the lives of innocents. Your choice not to prevent pregnancy could be costly.

Personally I only got pregnant when I chose to, all my children were planned with the full support of my then husband. When I was young and foolish I was smart enough to prevent pregnancy. Not every woman is as rational as I am.

When my daughters were at the age to become sexually active I told them if you aren't preventing you're looking at the possibility of starting a baby. They used birth control. They also have only gotten pregnant when they planned on it.

You cannot dictate to any woman what she does with her body. As soon as you spill your seed your choices are over. You made your donation. If you don't want to make that donation you better be 100% proactive in preventing it. And 9 months from now if you are prevented with child support demands, remember that you could have prevented it.

allowing men to not take part in any responsibility of a child he don't want is in no way dictating anything to women. keep any kid u want, just don't expect that the man should be forced by law to help u any is what im sayin. u have toi make it out that im sayin men should be able to tell women what to do with their body cuz u have no argument against what im really saying.

@jorj bottom line, it is YOUR baby. Why take chances? Don't want a baby then take definitive steps NOT to make a baby. You want the pleasure but not the responsibility;. Take responsibility for your seed or don't have sex.

i agree and i take every step possible for men but mistakes happen and when they do women have an out and men dont. not hard to see that is not equality. women can always ask if a man wants to be a father and say no to men that dont. how can we ever expect women to have adult conversations and make rational decisions tho, right?

@jorj When I was young and stupid the best thing I did was I took responsibility for my potential reproduction. I made damn sure there would be no surprises. My desire was to not be tied in any way, shape, or form to any really bad decision I made under the influence. I expect no less from anyone else.

well if u support women aborting but men not having any say at all in his future parental status then u do expect less from some and more from others.

8

Once you place your sperm in her body you have responsibility to any child conceived. It does not, however, buy you any additional rights to her body. Evolution is a bitch.
If you want to reduce the risk of having that responsibility, take responsibility for birth control. If it fails, you still have responsibility.
If you want to eliminate all possiblity of that responsibility, either don't have vaginal intercourse with her, get a vasectomy or have her sign a contract that relieves you of all responsibility before the act.
You know all the rules of how this works, acting like you didn't after the act is done, is just shirking your responsibilities.

funny how u keep sayin the men have to take responsibility but at the same time u don't think women should be takin that responsibility. how sexist of u to think women can't make rational thought out good decisions by supporting her right to abortion just cause she isnt rdy but in turn tellin me to take responsibility.

Actually, I said nothing about women's responsibility one way or another because that was not what the question is about. But, since you asked.

Women are responsible for any child they bring to term. They retain the right to their own body. They have a responsibility to make decisions about keeping or terminating a viable embryo in reasonable time or based on medical need. They are responsible for birth control much as men are, and take the same risks, with the only difference being the timing, since they have control of their body and can use plan b or early interventions to end the pregnancy. Unfortunately, in the US, we have made it all but impossible, in many places of the country, for women to take agency beyond birth control.

The timing of the responsibility differences are simply due to basic biological differences. Nobody said fair had to be symmetrical. That is just not how life works.

6

Maybe because "having sex" is a totally different thing from "being pregnant and being a parent".

6

This is an ugly topic, and I think that's because there is no perfect answer. In an ideal world, no child would ever be born without parents who want it and are prepared to nurture it and guide it, and no parents would feel trapped. But where conflicting agendas and priorities collide, there is no ideal outcome. Women have plenty of vulnerability when it comes to pregnancy and childbirth, both physically/health-wise and economically and perhaps socially as well. Men can find themselves trapped in a situation that they believed they were being responsible about. I know it occasionally happens that a woman involved with a man convinces him that she is totally protected by contraception when she isn't. There are women (I have personally met some) who want to have a child, thinking it will win commitment from a man who otherwise isn't willing. Many a shotgun wedding has happened as far back and anyone can remember. But the legal system has settled on a general consensus called the nexus principle that says the first consideration of the courts will be the well-being of the children involved, not necessarily of either adult. It is hard to argue that the children were to blame for any of the situation happening in the first place. For that reason, I tend to agree which how the courts have set this up, even though it sucks to be trapped in any situation that you never intended and thought you had planned adequately to prevent. I feel worst for the kids in the middle.

i agree with almost everything u just said

Gee thnx

6

I think that if a woman chooses to have a child, it's her responsibility. If a man chooses to be part of the process, he then bears responsibility for child. A woman can opt out with an abortion or adoption. A man should have the same option of remaining childfree through signing away all parental rights and responsibilities.

i agree with u 100%. men should have the option to opt out in the beginning so the woman can see what she faces if she chooses to keep the child. that is equality and that would save tons of kids from being born in to horrible situations like we all can talk about. it seems like the women want the care free sleep with anyone i want lifestyle and if i get pregnant i can either keep it or not but in no way will a man ever be allowed to not accept my choice and not help me with all of my bad decisions.

furthermore, a man that chooses abortion should legally not be allowed to try to get involved with the child on down the road cause abortion is "death" for his kid and the mother should be legally required to not tell the child who the father is. if the man does take part and wants the kid from the start then he should be held 100% responsible on child support and all that but the man should have the abortion option at the start just like a woman.

5

Let me ask you a question....

Do you use a condom every single time you have sex with a woman? If said condom breaks, do you insist on helping to pay for the day after pill or do you just hope you're lucky? If male contraception better than a condom becomes available, will you be using it?

If you don't, then your question means nothing to me.

i would start takin the male pill right now if it were to be available and yes i always wear a condom. if not to stop unwanted pregnancy but to also stop STD. and if it breaks i will pay half for the morning after pill no problem. will even put the money up front so she can have it before she risks the sex to begin with.

You're very rare or I hang around the wrong people.

im actually for abortion 100% i just feel like men deserve equal rights for a change. to long have men been oppressed on this issue. even to the point that 30% of men that are court ordered to pay child support are on the hook for child support to kids they didnt even father. im not against women at all but alot of times i get censored and all that cuz women can't counter a good argument on this issue cuz it is 100% sexist against men.

@jorj glad you're so responsible sexually. I wish all men were. Instead we have bullshit like stealthing...

i try to be as responsible as i can be cuz i think that its child abuse for children to be raised in single parent house holds. i would never wish that on a child cuz i was raised in that situation and it is horrible. the stealthing thing is something that is kinda odd to me. i have seen a couple articles about it but i have never in my life heard a man say he did or try to convince other men to do it. maybe i been sheltered from it but i think that whole claim is just a bunch of BS to try to gain power or influence in a discussion.

4

Only 61% of ALL child support paid is from father-to-mother. [time.com]
Less than half of those men paid their full support.[census.gov]
You want to take away female bodily autonomy because half the men legally ordered to pay child support actually pay it? And you think that number is unfair to MEN?

and women ordered to pay child support that don't is over 80% so whats the point. dead beat moms are bigger issue in that regard.

and i don't wanna take anything from women...im pro-choice. i just think it needs to be extended to both sexes or women need to quit acting like they want equality when its obvious they want special privilege.

@jorj You're drawing a false comparison. Your right to not go into debt is not equal to my right to control my own body. You can't find equality between genders when the very situations your comparing are unequal.

@jorj Also. 82.5% of children from single-parent households live with their mothers. We take almost ALL custodial responsibility. We pay the vast majority of support, and we take on all the physical burdens of pregnancy. Maybe equality should start somewhere in there.

i don't want your right to your own body changed, i want men to have equal reproductive right in the pro-choice manner that women already are given. i don't want ot force u to carry a child for me or force u to abort it. that is your choice. on the flip side i don't want u to be able to force me to at the minimum to be financially on the hook when i don't want to be a parent just because u want to be a parent. your choice whether or not u are a parent is protected, my choice is to follow what the woman wants and shut up. sounds really equal, huh?

82.5% of children are with single mothers becasue mothers are given the kids in divorce in almost every case unless the mother is proven unfit even if the father wants custody because of this whole idea that women are the nurturing sex of humans and also because women have fought for decades to drive the system to this due to the economical gain with having child support whether from the father or from the state. why do u think alimony exist? because these same groups that drove mothers always gettin the kids wanted to further their economic gain from the man once the marriage ends. proof of all this, look up when the first time a woman was given custody and do a little research about why men had traditionally got custody at the point of divorce.

maybe u wouldnt have this "burden" if your fellow feminist ladies hadnt pushed and pushed for these policies until they got them so that they could continue their stay at home life styles even after the left a marriage. the idea of puttin in 60 hours a week to maintain their lifestyle didnt seem to appealing to women that were bored with the man not giving them the attention they felt the deserve.

both parties know the risk and both parties consent to them. therefore it should require both parties consent to be a parent if any party has the right to opt out just cause they arent ready. i didnt think this was all that confusing but obviously some ppl don't understand my position or they misrepresent what i say to try to make a point. i want u to keep every single right u have and also extend the rights to men cuz it is the feminist women tht say they are for equality of men and women but it sure don't have any evidence to back on this subject at all. all the evidence points to female privilege to control the whole arena of who is and isnt a parent. men need to shut up and in a sense "go back to the kitchen", right?

4

Until a man is able to carry a child and bring it into the world, the woman has the power because its her body. These days, women don't need a husband or partner to conceive. There is many sperm banks and fertility doctors in a lot of the major city's across america

im all for the womans right to choice about her body. ive had to repeat it on almost every single post that has come up. seems like my position is overlooked and then misrepresented intentionally in most cases too. even when i remind some of them that i said i was pro choice from the start they just can't add that in to the thought process of this and just want to go back to her body her choice which is what i have supported the whole time as well. im just sayin its time men get equal rights on the issue.

@jorj I get you totally but its as simple as this....The owner of the car is the one who can drive it. I don't see a circumstance where men would have any say so unless the woman was disabled or mentally unable to make her own medical decisions.

what im tlkin about has nothing to do with if the woman keeps the child or not or anything to do with her decision. its about the mans decision to be a parent or not. to compare it to your car situation would be to say a woman forces u to drive a pink car cuz she can force u to buy any car she wants or no car at all if she wants cuz u have no choice on if u even own a car or not. has nothing to do with if she has a car or not either, she can decide what she does for transportation any way she wants as long as the man don't have to pay for it for her by law just cuz he gave her some advice on what good forms of transportation are.

@jorj I guess I am not getting your point. either scenario you speak of rely on a woman's body and their choice concerning their body. I would suggest you hire a surrogate. This is the only way you will have your rights as a man to have a child. even if you are married, you wife is not obligated to give you offspring.These are different times we live in sir. what if your wife or girlfriend not only denied you sex but could control when and how often you masterbate? how would you like someone other than yourself making decisions about your penis?

where am i sayin men can say any word at all about the womans choice. she can do what she want.

i think men and women should have the choice with only exception being a man can't force u to carry the baby if u don't want it. if the woman wants to keep it but he don't no big deal. he isnt on the hook for any money, visits, responsibility and on top of that the woman shouldn't be allowed to tell the child who the man is. i don't see how this confuses ppl so much. they all keep sayin u don't get to decide for her and im say cool, i don't want to. i just think men shoudl have the right to say no, i don't want a child now and leave all the rest on the woman. she can do whatever she wants from there on.

@jorj the problem with your statement is this, if one person wants a child and the other do not, why make a child in the first place. condoms are everywhere. if a man fathers a baby he doesn't want, you are suggesting the father should be allowed to walk away with out any responsibility? You are talking about something that happens every day, which is why we have family court. I don't think its fair for one parent to take care of a child because one parent didn't make the child.

i agree with u. the woman can ask if he wants a child or not if pregnancy was to happen and then not sleep with the guys that don't want kids if she is the type that don't want an abortion. they know the risks just like men. but if both choose to make a bad decision and the pregnancy happens then women shouldnt be allowed to force the guy she knows that didnt want kids to be a father. i don't think its fair that if a man wants a kid and the woman don't she can just kill it but he don't want it oh well, he knew the risks. this is special treatment for women and not treating them like responsible adults that make rational and smart decisions.

i have a radical idea....women can carry condoms also. and if the man don't want to use it then don't sleep with him. or she can tell him if he don't have the condom then no sex. if she makes the bad ddecision she has an out. he dont. that is sexism in favor of the woman. feminist want men to take all the responsibilities for everything under the sun while they just get the pros of mens life and no cons. that is why even the majority of women think feminism is ridiculous and don't subscribe to it.

@jorj i can agree with you that it is unfair that a man has no say so if a woman decides to abort their child. Unfortunately this is how it will be since women are the ones who carry the baby.

@jorj so basically you just want to fuck without any responsibility at all. you don't want to bring your own condoms and you don't want baby responsibilities if there is a pregnancy....lol you would have to leave American and go to another country to be able to get away with this

where did i say that. im pro-choice for society but im pro-life for any kid i create.

@jorj lol give them life but no child support right?

where do i say that i won't give them anything. im talkin for the men in general here. policy stances have nothing to do with my own personal experience, they have to do with the facts of what society is and what is best for society. if i had a child i would be at home with my kid and its mother like i feel like i should do as a father. still don't change the fact that mean are gettin unfair treatment and that feminism is just a man bashing hate group.

men usually debate based on general rule of things....not try to act like their own single personal experience is all that matters when u start with the "well i feel" or the "in my experience" that u get from the feminist movement. most men don't need to use abstract feelings and biases and neither do the majority of women that don't agree with the feminsts.

only a very small % of ppl on the far left wing and far right wing (mostly the chritians) of politics think that their feelings and own life is more important than everyone else that they should be able to govern all ppl based on their individual feelings and experiences.

@jorj depends on the man. some are supporters of womens rights and others are not so that would be a slippery slope my friend.

@jorj What you have basically described is your congress! only their opinion, which is their lobbyist opinion really matters

@jorj There is nothing wrong with a group demanding equal rights. Its because of mans belief in religion which causes women to be treated like second class citizens. often times, we as men are intimidated by strong women. if we were more secure with ourselves and less insecure, it would not matter if we had an equal partner on our side.

more money is spent on womens health issues. more women are graduating college than men cuz of programs designed to push women and leave men out of them. women under 35 are making more than men on average. all women that accuse men are by default given the benefit of not having to prove any of the accusation and the mans life is still destroyed. there are thousands of domestic abuse centers for women but hardly any for men. women arent forced by law to be parents like men. i can go on and on if u want but if women are the second class citizens i would love to know how u figure that.

@jorj dude a woman gave birth to you! and you are suggesting too much money is spent on womens health? that's hilarious....i am not aware of any programs specifically for women education. the government have pale grants and loans for any gender to go to college
you seem to have a lot of opposition to women. i hope you understand that your attitude will keep you single

where did i suggest to much is spent, i said more is spent. totally diferent thing. good for u in misrepresenting what im sayin thinking u nailed me tho....LMAO

and i hate to inform u about the stayin single part.....women that agree with u are less than 25%. many women love men that arent white knight beta males that will challenge women and treat them as equals. i kow this cuz i meet them all over. YOU ARE THE MINORITY

all im sayin is that women are NOT oppressed like the alt left keeps on pushing

@jorj well you are certainly entitled to your opinion. i respectfully disagree

@jorj dude if you can't interpret your own post, I'm done! HERE IS YOUR POST...
more money is spent on womens health issues. more women are graduating college than men cuz of programs designed to push women and leave men out of them. women under 35 are making more than men on average. all women that accuse men are by default given the benefit of not having to prove any of the accusation and the mans life is still destroyed. there are thousands of domestic abuse centers for women but hardly any for men. women arent forced by law to be parents like men. I can go on and on if u want but if women are the second class citizens I would love to know how u figure that.

4

Equality means equal, not getting revenge for the sins of past generations.

4

Because men cannot be reproductive equals. Even if you were to take on ALL financial responsibility for the child, there's no way you could shoulder any of the physical burdens and sacrifices of pregnancy. They are many, extreme, and can lead to death or lifelong debility.

Men who are upset about this should be activists for funding research for male pregnancy. When we both have the same skin in the game, we can talk.

men are already funding research in to incubators so that we can finally not have to deal with any of this sexist system that feminism has brought us. i know pregnancy is hard on women and i respect any and all mothers but women should consider that before they have sex right? isnt that what men are told, u should have known better is what we get told. there is no get out of it for us but for some reason women think they shouldnt have that same lvl of accountability and that is sexist as it gets. its like u think women can't make rational choices and men shoudl have to protect the poor little thing from her own bad decisions.

This sexist system that prevents men from enslaving women as human incubators? Where do I send the check?

u obviously havent did any research in to divorce settlements and the way men have been gettin shafted 100% even when it was the woman who cheated and left him. im all for punishing a man if he destroys a womans life that was faithful to him but when its the opposite way the man still gets destroyed. and it asll thanks to the divorce system and the go take an EPO out on him even if he didnt do anything wrong so that u get the leverage to take all he has ever worked for in your relationship window. the sytem is heavily weighted toward serving the interest of mothers at any expense to men.

@jorj First of all, 100% and "shafted" almost never show up in statistics so I'm guessing you haven't did much research on the subject.

I get it. You're angry and feel like women get the better deal in divorce and child support, That's an entirely separate issue from what someone can force another to do with herr body.

if u don't understand what shafted 100% is in the common world then u are just a well sheltered snowflake. my guess is u want to play semantics on it so do your thing, but know that anyone with intellectual integrity will be laughing at u on that one. and im not angry, im factual. prove it wrong if u can, im open to changin my mind. and i will say this again and i even edited the original post cuz pro-choice sexist women want to misrepresent what im sayin here so that they can think they got one on me. I IN NO WAY WANT TO TELL U WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR BODY....I AM 100% PRO CHOICE.

using the u are angry or the shaming technique that is so common with women just shows u can't really intellectual debate very long so u got to do these games of if i can make appear like they are just bitter cuz of their past and such i will win even without puttin forth an actual argument that has merit.

@jorj No, jorj... it comes out in your consistently anti-female arguments. I've already told you that I don't believe this is an issue of equality. I've shown you data that proves women carry a much greater burden of parenthood than the vast majority of men. You say I should do the research, you make up statistics, and then you say I just don't know you're joking.

In most cases, yes, the anger argument is wrong and about shame. I just don't know how else to make sense of your illogical and dishonest arguments.

so me being PRO-CHOICE is anti-woman huh? please show me one thing ive said that is anti-female.

You're not pro-choice. You're pro 'using choice as leverage against a different program.' I'm not going through your posts to pick out the ugly bits. We're never going to convince each other. Let's just move on.

@jorj btw... my sheltered, snowflake ass works from 4:30am to 9 pm EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Because I'm a single mom who missed out on the gravy train.

if i hve so many anti-female things goin it shouldnt take but just a sec to find one....not asking for much. truth is u know there isnt any anti-female stances, just pro-male stances and women don't want equality for men, they want us as tools for their disposal

@jorj you seriously can't see anything amti-female in what you just said?

no i cant. i see ppl twist what i say to make it fit their narrative and then try to shame me and say im bitter and angry for being burned in the past but all of that is just ppl who can't justify the double standard here. if anything i said is anti-woman please point it out and ill explain it further and apologize if im in the wrong.

3

The ONLY choices a man has BEFORE he has sex with a woman are, to either have a vasectomy, or wear a condom. If he has no interest in being responsible for any child resulting from any act of intercourse, he can sign away his parental rights and not be held financially liable. No one should ever be forced to be responsible for a child they didn't want in the first place. I think we're to a point now where people need to sign waivers covering these things BEFORE they have sex. I don't agree with women forcing men to be financially responsible for children they never wanted in the first place. Just as I don't agree with forcing women to gestate any pregnancy they never wanted in the first place.

I agree so long as the male pays for half of the abortion cost whether the woman will use it or not. This way the man has paid his part for not having the child (one could argue 2/3 of abortion cost rationally due to health risk either way for the woman).

@Pernbronze That seems reasonable to me. As long as the male doesn't insist on interfering with the female obtaining an abortion.

not 2/3 at all tho. women choose to have sex just like men so they have to responsible for half. that is what equality is.

2

When YOU can get pregnant, by all means, till that day men have NO choice, they better use protection if they don't want a kid. Every single time.

well then u must want to get rid of abortion then so that women better use protection unless they want a child, right? or is it that u are a sexist and don't want equal rights for men and women? oh yea, i forgot, feminists don't want equality, they want to be placed on a pedestal and always have a safety net while they insist on men always saving them from their own horrible decisions.

@jorj you are a FUCKING IDIOT. ...SCRAPING OUT A UTERUS or A HEAVY DOSE OF MENSTRUATION PILLS ought to be conducted inside your scrotum. ...your brain must be smaller than a single testicle

ahhhh, Green, the typical ignorant insulting lefty. good for u.

2

I worried about this as a mother to a teenaged son because I would have had to pay child support for a child I had no part of bringing into this world. I would have willingly paid for an abortion; however, if she was determined to have the baby we would have begun emancipation proceedings immediately. Anyone who's going to bring a child into the world for damn sure better have a job and be self-supporting.

and what scares me is that there is a certain group that have no concern at all for their sons when it comes to these kinds of issues. to them its just all about their own narcissism and control over men in any and all aspects that they can take over.

and BTW, u deserve mother of the year for taking a stand like that. puttin your sons interest above your own sex and their interest. that is what being a mother should be all about. same as with fathers and daughters and when men standing up for womens rights when they are trampled on cuz they only want the best for their daughters first and foremost.

2
1

I think a lot of it has to do with how our media approaches certain subjects. I'll start with talk shows. Morning talk shows usually have really energetic, bombastic, opinionated women. So when they say something they say it in a very loud and pushy way. That's why people watch them, they like to watch the argument. People replicate this personality because it's what they see all the time, we are a product of our environment and we adjust as such.

It happens with every major issue. People in the news blow up the issue without looking or talking about a compromise. It gets questioned... sort of. It gets asked as, "well what should we do about it?" Then both sides sit across from each other and argue without attempting a compromise. They just push their ideologies and attempt to convert others to their perspective without finding common ground. That's why we end up with the same problem with all these "major issues" that we have, including the women's rights debate. You create a deep divide, don't properly discuss the issue, only address personal opinions about the issue, then keep circling around the root issue instead of addressing it. It's simply creating a sphere of control over a subject most of us could reasonably talk about if we weren't inundated with a constant barrage of language that promotes conflict instead of a resolution.

the way men are constantly boo'ed every time any woman says "he need to take care of blah blah blah" only to hear he is NOT the father shows just how brainwashed ppl have become by the feminist propaganda. not once is a woman ever boo'ed and is always the victim no matter what the situation is and that is wrong. i seen a show where a woman had locked a man in the house while she left and she always would beat on him and used everything she could against him to control him including threats to lie to the police to lock him up and the guy was laughed at by the audience and made fun of cuz he let a woman do that stuff to him. but u never see a woman in that siutaion laughed at. its always the man is the piece of crap but once the talk show host pointed that out the audience was silenced cuz even women can sometimes see how wrong it is if u really point it out to them. just most hosts won't point it out for fear of backlash from feminist groups.

and u will never find a tv shoe dedicated to men and mens issues, it is hate speech to even talk about mens issues. its like u are only allowed to fight against the issues that women face or make up that they faec and men are always second class citizens in todays world. so if women want equality its time they fight for mens issues cuz men are more oppressed by todays society than women are by far. and the fact that even the majority of women arent feminist anymore shows that rational thinking women can see thr4 truth and know women have equality and they celebrate all the ladies of the past for fighting the real issues and they scoff at these 3rd wave feminist that are just privilege seeking male bashers.

1

Interesting, and quite cut and dried: as long as the sperm is with you, you decide. When it is in me, I decide. As to what happenes when a baby results, the laws are quite extensive and clear.

and the laws are quite sexist and unfair

@jorj Laws are there to be changed idf they don't fir the circumstances.

hard to change laws when every time u bring up an issue u are just shouted down, called names and personally attacked with assumptions about your past relationships and then silenced on the topic. mens issues are not allowed to be debated in any western forums anymore for fear of the feminist wrath of boycotts and irrational protests about nothing but made up issues that are programmed in to them by politicians who don't want to make real changes to the corrupt system to help anyone. pay gap is the perfect example. women do get equal pay for equal work and that is proved by the hourly wage and anytime it is proven women are paid less for the same job men and women alike attack them and prosecute them to the fullest but the pay gap myth is made up by lookin at the total earnings for the year without even loking at hours worked or anything. truth is women in the younger generations are actually make more than men are because our system has been changed and the feminst won't celebrate the victory, they want to push privileges now and ignore any issue men have that might take away some of their victim status.

1

Does anyone else think it’s ridiculous that men are arguing that they should have a legal out from supporting a child they created because BIOLOGY is not fair to THEM!?!

I’ll tell you what, “gentlemen,” when the law makes fair ALL of the so many things that are unfair to women, we’ll talk. Don’t know what I’m talking about? You can start with pregnancy, childbirth, menstruation, sexual harassment, rape, misogyny, mansplaning, lower wages, etc. etc. etc.

why do women have a way out then? if men are expected to know the risks and not do it if they don't want a child then how come women don't want that equality? u know the risk to your body and the dangers of sex so it goes both ways. if u choose to take the risk then u need to WOMAN UP. men always accepted the responsibility until the feminist movement started the man bashing and over reaching in to privilege areas so we are just wanting equality for a change.

the rest of your issues there are kinda comical and i am as much left leaning as anyone but the facts and stats feminism uses just don't line up with reality. women already have millions and millions more spent on them for healthcare over men and just accusing men of something now days is automatic guilty for the man even if the woman is provd to be making it all up. he still loses his job and society calls him a pervert or rapist the rest of his life in those cases as well and feminism fights against laws that make a false accuser have to be accountable for the lie. u can't even press charges on a false rape accusation, u get told to let it go cuz the poor rape "victim" (even tho she made it all up) has been thru enough already. WHAT A JOKE!!!!

the pay gap is a lie. there are already laws that stop it and when it is proven the guilty ones are prosecuted. equal earnings is not equal to equality. if u want to earn as much as men then put in the hours that they do. u can't expect to be paid more per hour just so the yearly earnings equals the ppl who put in more hours work. thought u wanted equal work for equal pay but then u prove with this issue it is u want equal earnings for the same job instead of for the same amount of work. which would in fact be sexist if it were to happen.

mansplaining is just a joke and we all know it. sorry that u don't like men to clarify what they are meaning when u twist what they say to fit your narratives but that isnt mansplaining anymore than it is for womansplainigng accusations anytime u stay what u say things u do. its all stupidity and that style of debate and such is why u get presidents like the idiot Trump.

less than 30% of women call themselves feminist for a reason u know. the feminist sexist agenda has been exposed and women that care about equality don't even agree with u all anymore so keep on doin whatever it is u want but it will just lead to more Trump style presidents in the future. feminst shoudl be discussing the real isues women have in the world like the middle east and africa but instead we hear about the so called oppression of the west about beauty standards and fat shaming. feminism is a joke for any and all intelligent ppl of todays world, that is why your numbers are so small anymore. ppl are for equality and feminism doesnt strive for that anymore. i know u will dismiss this cuz im a man but even the majority of women agree so dismiss all u want and keep on with the losing agenda all uwant. that is your freedom and unlike the feminist i am not against free speech and won't try to silence u like feminist do me anytime i comment or say something on their internet threads.

Please block this jerk @jorj. ...he deserves 30 days in jail contempt of court if he tries his lies before any domestic law judge

another lefty move....no freedom of speech and even jail time for ppl that don't tow the line huh? how nice of u, Stalin.

1

You know what the real solution to this is for those with your mindset is to go have your dna collected and stored then go get a vasectomy STAT. That way you've TOTAL control of your dna.
The inequality here is that birth control and the effects of such are still shouldered by women 99% of the time through pills, IUDs, hormone shots, abortion. Condoms are by comparison primitive means of control.
Stop crying and get a vasectomy already.

no it isnt... the real solution is either give men equal parental rights or take away abortion. women know all the risk just as much as men and choose to partake in it all but for some reason u all think u should get special treatment for your decision bringin a negative consequence. that is sexism. men that know the risk and chance it are held accountable for whatever the women decideds even tho it takes both parties consent to begin with at every lvl until u get the point of child birth and raising kids.

i could say that u could freeze your eggs and get a surrogate if u ever want kids and u get the tubal or hysterectomy but im not that naive about a topic this broad and def not the type that wants to control women like that cuz i actually do respect the opposite sex. for u to want the option to control men for your decisions that involve risk shows u are not for equality but in fact a sexist.

Ever heard that saying "If you want something done correctly do it yourself"?
If reproductive choice for men is so important to you push for more options available to men beyond condom or vasectomy. Utilize them. The end.

You(global) do not get to force women to abort or carry any more than anyone subjecting you to a vasectomy. SMH at the men who don't utilize their options yet expect women to bow to their every circumstance. Why is that not surprising.

Enjoy your mewl fest.....

im PRO -CHOICE for women tho....funny how u overlook that when ive said it continuously. no where do i say men an force women to keep or abort a baby. im just sayin men should have the right to metaphorically abort his child the same way and if women want to keep them they can. they just can't ask for any help at all from the man.

@jorj metaphorically abort his child" Yes that would be great if we could shove them back where they came from right?
Certainly would help Darwin those who should never be fathers. In any case my patience with debating right wing whackadoo mentality has reached its limit. TATA

just as i thought, if u can't distort what im sayin u can't refute the fact that currently reproduction rights are sexist

@jorj Somebody needs to call a waaambulance for you. In the meantime...

looks like the feminist agenda is to oppress white men of today for the problems that happened that not a single on of them were part of. that by definition is a hate group seeking power and in no way a civil rights group seeking equality. just imagine what the media would say if men were running round happy that they were glad to see "white female tears". bet it wouldn't fly over so well, how about u?

1

If two people choose to engage in conjugal relations without protection, they have equal responsibility and equal rights. A lot of discussion is required. If the man wants to keep the child but the woman doesn't, is he willing and able to raise that child alone. If the man doesn't want the child, but the woman does, is he obligated to pay for it's care? In most states, maybe all states, the answer to that one is "yes."

If the man wants to keep the child but the woman doesn't, is he willing and able to raise that child alone.

we can't even get to this discussion cuz men have ZERO rights either way. women can abort for any or no reason at all plus force the situation on aman that she knows 100% doesnt want a kid and he has to just MAN UP and take it.

1

As a woman, I don't want my body essentially hijacked for 9 months with permanent changes. Of course I also take steps to make sure that doesn't happen, but just in case, my body is mine. If a man wants a kid and can find a way without treating me like an incubator he can have at. The MOST CRITICAL PART of being pro choice is affordable and accessible birth control to prevent the pregnancy in the first place. Guys have to take responsibility for birth control too if they don't want kids. Use a spermicide that works with or without condoms, or get snipped if you're sure about it. Be educated about how it all works. If your girl is on the pill and antibiotics don't go bareback. It's not like guys have no control over becoming a dad if they're smart about sex.

except for the woman who thinks skipping the pill to get pregnant thinking it will save her relationship or marriage. i myself do wear a condom no matter if they say they are on the pill or not tho. no way do i trust women on that issue at all cuz of how society is today. and im all for your right to get an abortion, always have been. i just figured that the feminist are for equality so why do they not push for actual equality on this issue but instead want women to have the out but men to not have the out when something goes wrong.

1

You would grant that historically men have had greater authority in family law. With that women have for centuries moderated their fertility as best they could including the ending of pregnancies.
With the advent of modern medicine there is more than just the womans word as to who is the father, greater safety for mother and child, and with RvW the capability to end a pregancy safely. Is this a perfect balance between the rights of the woman and man involved - no. I am not sure a perfect balance is possible.
Should the state be able to denigh this medical procedure to a woman requesting it? In my opinion no.
If the father decides to "bow out" and the mother needs assistance raising the child is it fair for the state to pick up the tab? How would you answer...

if u are gonna base policy on what happened in the past and try to make todays men pay for the sins of the past that the women of today have never experienced then that is a very odd way to validate equality and justice. i would say it is not fair for the state or the father to pick up the check unless the father agreed to the parental rights at conception instead of opting out. if he opted out and the woman chooses to keep it then she needs to WOMAN UP and handle her responsibility. i do realize that stance is a little bit unrealistic but until the incentives are not there for pregnancy women will never think about rational decisions with birth control or tryin to get pregnant to save a marriage or stop a break up and such. im not sayin all or even the majority do that but it is a problem. if women realized they would be alone in the raising of the child they wouldnt be so quick to make irrational decisions with sex. and that is what being an adult is all about. weighing the consequences and making a decision that is in your best interest.

1

The law has always favored the woman when it comes to assessing responsibility for a child's financial support because the law protects the government in general and does not want the government to be stuck with the bill for support the child. The male is seen as the more lucrative scapegoat.

Advice for young men: Get a vasectomy in your early teens but do not tell your girlfriends about it...they are almost always looking for husbands and fathers for their children, having bought into the myth of happy marriages and everlasting love and support, ala prince charming.

Will doctors perform vasectomies on men before they have children or when they're young? My doctor refused to perform a tubal ligation on me at my son's birth because I was "only 20" and he was sure I'd change my mind.

Wow that’s appalling. “Get a vasectomy and don’t tell partners about it”? How about, choose a partner who has the same desire or lack of desire for children. How about NOT hiding a huge life altering fact from the other human being in your relationship?

@A2Jennifer Women who don't want children are as rare as hen's teeth. They just assume that all people get married and have children. Few women make a rational decision to have or not have children...they are driven by nature to nest. I hunt for their nests to find where they hide their eggs and smash them whenever I find them.

You don’t have to have children. You don’t have to want children. But actively deceiving and making decisions for other people, especially someone you are engaged in a relationship with, that is just not ok. @dahermit

@A2Jennifer Yes I am! Thank you.

@A2Jennifer Women can have all the children they want...just not mine.

@A2Jennifer Hey! I want my "despicable" back!

I removed the personal attack because on consideration, that’s not the kind of discourse I want to have. But the point stands that what you propose is morally reprehensible. It is ethically equivalent to a woman telling her partner that she is on birth control when she really is not. @dahermit

@A2Jennifer You know of course that they have done that many times.

Yes, I do. And what you are advocating is just as bad. @dahermit

1

I'm of the opinion that if one parent doesn't want the kid, kid shouldn't be born and that is to protect the kid from feeling rejected when he grows up because no one can make you be a father or a mother if you don't want to. But then I also think women have a right to decide over their bodies so if the father early on decides he doesn't want to have a kid and the woman still wants to have it she shouldn't drag the man into a paternity she well knows he doesn't want. It should be in written and the woman should agree she then will raise the kid on het own whithout ever seeking help from the father. I know one too many women who get pregnant on purpose from different men to live off the child support. I think that is unfair.

thank u. men are trapped all the time just for the fact that women want that easy money. it is sad men have to worry about that at all times even when the woman is "on" birth control. many of the younger ladies of today are startin to be raised in an environment where they can't deny that men are ran over by the sytem. its just all the older generations that refuse to realize equality has been obtained and all the shitty stuff they experience now is what is known as adult life. but if any issue at all comes up where women are oppressed im the first one there to fight it. i just have looked really in to the issues and i can't find a single feminist issue that carries much weight at all anymore.

On the other hand jorj if the man agrees to have the baby I also find very unfair that he just sends a check and leaves all the responsability of raising the child to the woman. A child needs a lot more than just money. Just like society stigmatizes a woman when she doesn't fulfill her maternal duties men who agreed to continue with the pregnancy, regardless if they were in a marriage or not, must also share the time consuming responsabilities of parenthood. I'm talking about TIME because we see it every day; mothers enslaved raising kids while the father simply returns to his single man's rutine. I consider that unfair too.

0

This is why I like this site. The arguements are all captivating & ongoing without the digression into the usual F bombs & other trite insults. The topic is quite origonal. The premise of the issue is one with no solution. There is no outcome that would be condusive to an equitable settlement. A fascinating dychotomy. Some problems have no solutions. How we as a society navigate these complex issues evolves with the advent of science, ethics, technology, opinion. I tend to agree with jorj. One should not be forced into parenthood. But then I purport that the government should provide for abortion within the 1st month of cell division. Engaging topic none the less.

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:29040
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.