@BohoHeathen If you want to hate something, it should be worthy of that hate. Hate radical Islam terrorist if you want, hate rapists and murderers - why hate on a guy that is fighting for America?? The hate Trump has received from members of this group is pathetic!

@gater 45 is more than "worthy" of my abject loathing. I've hated that piece of trash for over 40 years. He has inspired it with everything he's ever done.
I will not apologize for that, and I will not curtail my hatred for him.
If other people don't see how vile and corrupt he is, that's on them. I will not alter anything about how I talk about him to appease anyone. Ever.

We both like GoT. So we have that in common. We don't have to agree on anything else.

Tipping my toe in the water here... I feel that the 1-2 word labels (racist, x-ophobe, bigot, etc) people use to describe people any range of contrary opinions have the only purpose of showing hate to others. Have you ever seen a person respond to a label with, "Oh, you know, you're right, I should look at things differently"? While I'm not suggesting we do this, what if we had 1 month trial period where we all take an oath to never use these labels.. and were required to say nuanced things that starts with "I respect you as a person but..."?

Hate for the actions of a devient like Trump is healthy and normal. no sympathy for the walking trash fire.

@gater You think Trump is "fighting for America," but a great many of us see him as fawning on whoever lards his vanity. I really think his only allegiance is to adulation of Trump, which he obsessively pursues.

@Admin I'm all for the "I statements" it makes you reword unless you throw a "But" in there. lol

@Admin Because many of these folks don't garner my respect 'as a person' and Im sure im not alone in this feeling.

@BohoHeathen So you hate Trump - but terrorists are not so bad?

As expressed by a few others below, Trump is worthy of the loathing sent his way. If there were another word or way to express greater loathing, I would choose it. What I find shocking is that you find it shocking. What is it about Trump personally and his policies that isn't loathsome? We obviously can't have a conversation since we obviously don't share the same truth.For what it is worth, I am the same age as Trump, am actually a white man, not orange, but can list a possible defect in that I don't play golf.

@DangerDave So you equate terrorists that bomb innocent women and children to Trump - are you stupid or something?

That's funny, I'm continually shocked by how much love he gets here. I am annoyed with your use of the term "blind hate" when in fact the closer you look the worse he appears. Even the hypocritical evangelicals admit they must "overlook" his character defects because they love his polices..

@gater . Your use of a cheap tactic that infers if you don't support Trump you must support terrorists is despicable.

@DangerDave of course you can - they are both fruit, both edible, both grow on trees...its not like comparing apples to a wrench, or a stick of dynamite.

@Admin I truly understand what you are trying to do. Respectfully, I will not pledge to curtail my enmity toward 45.
I won't attack any other member directly, but I also won't give them a pass for supporting that pos. I just can't do it.
I'll do my best not to swear at them, but I won't give them a pass.

@BohoHeathen I didn't block you

@Casey07 When did I say that? - I said if you hate someone they should be worthy of that hate - many losers in the group hate Trump more than they hate terrorists - its pathetic.

@BohoHeathen your opinion is that Trump is a terrorists? lol omg

@DangerDave lol @ complete sentences

I wish we had a translation service that could convert what you just said into a way that is understandable to a Conservative. Remember, Conservatives generally translate what Liberal people say into a way that is different from what Liberal people think they do. There are two different languages being used so that they're understood differently. For example, "minority groups being denied the same basic human rights and protections as straight, white, cisgender folks" phrase requires a Conservative to guess what you are talking about... and they often go to their more sensitive trigger (e.g, oh, you're talking about a trans freak wanting to perv girls in a women's bathroom, that's dangerous and makes me uncomfortable)... so clearly, their response has to be emotional back to you (often they're favorite label "Libtard" ). I don't want to guess which of the minority groups or rights you're referring but I know your statement is "goodness" driven. Just some thoughts.

I think @admin was specifically trying to wrest control from people with your brand of totalitarianism.

@Admin if they willfully misconstrue statements, that is on them, on not on the speaker. It is not the duty of the correct to change what they say to appease the ignorant.

@MarkiusMahamius My brand of totalitarianism? You mean basic human decency that should apply equally to everyone? Am I missing something here?

@Kafirah yes

@MarkiusMahamius So you don't agree that every human alive deserves the same basic human rights and protections as everyone else? Or am I still missing something?

@Kafirah I think people should be able to open their big fat mouths about pretty much anything they want. The rest of us can respond by ignoring, or dialoging. I don't consider your right to your opinions, to be greater than mine or anyone else's. That doesn't change based on my personal beliefs about the content of the opinions. It simply based on the right to have them.

@MarkiusMahamius As do I, regarding opinions. I also believe that if someone thinks they deserve more, better, different, special, or extra rights and protections than someone else, for any reason, they are wrong. That wrong thinking implies that they somehow believe themselves to be somehow better than whoever they think deserves less. When it comes to basic human rights, NO ONE deserves less. That's no totalitarianism, that's universalism. It puts no one above anyone else. It is all-inclusive. If someone can't agree on that, there must be, in my opinion, something fundamentally wrong with them.

@MarkiusMahamius If you want to open your big fat mouth and say whatever you want then you will have to take responsibility for what you have said. It is not a matter that your opinion is greater than mine or vice verse but the fact that you or me are spouting hatred and fear.

@Kafirah you are absolutely just as entitled to you opinion as "they" are. Where it crosses the line into totalitarianism, to me, is the idea that you/some group of people, get to decide what's correct and allowable speech. Yeah, speech leads to action... for instance, plenty a person who hates on immigrants here, is also actively working to brutalize/support the brutalization of immigrants in real life. Besides moral harm, it produces real harm to the individual and to the potential of our species. But... I still think those people are entitled to their opinions. Like I said I can choose to ignore or dialog. When i choose to believe I have more rights than they do, that's totalitarianism.

I'll try to look at this a different way. Humans suck. Maybe totalitarianism is the only practible answer to large groups and the social vitriol that turns into impactable human behaviors. Maybe Stalin was right about how to resolve problems, regardless of if you agree with his selection criteria. Opposing/wrong opinions must be squashed. I suppose he could have been more humane about it, but this might be a chance to start improving on his processes.

@Jolanta i don't see a problem with that. Do you?

@MarkiusMahamius The problem is - that the there is a class that wants "Other" and "Female" to be "Less than" - and sees nothing wrong with it.

Proof that Transgenderism is a scientific fact - doesn't change their opinion.
That many countries now have women serving in the military - that doesn't do it either.
That the LBGTQ hold jobs and have kids and marriage etc.
All of that upsets them.

They want the strides forward to go back. Despite proof to the contrary. (And I do mean scientific proof). How do you argue with civility - day after day - when they want to snicker about your Human Rights?

I'm truly at a loss.

Literally concerned that right now there are people I love who could be at risk in this country because of changes begin made.

Simply women who can't get appropriate healthcare in their own State and have to travel to do so.
Transgendered who are denied jobs and attacked in public - because we have a president who took away their status in the Military.
There is such a list of things happening that frightens me - but I try very hard not to operate from there. Or from a place of hatred.

I try to base myself on "Where can we more forward to?".
"And how are we going to do it?"

@RavenCT my opinion about trans people, or maligned ethnic groups, or power dynamics, or or or...is equally as irrelevant as yours. And regardless of if we agree or not, we still both have the right to post about it.

@MarkiusMahamius That's just it... there is no totalitarianism if everyone is equal. Allowing those that don't have the same rights to have them doesn't take away from the rights of those that already had them. Giving others the same rights doesn't restrict those that already had them in any way. Everyone should be free to say whatever they want and hold whatever opinions they wish. However, despite all people being equal, all opinions are not. And all humans have the right to hold wrong and bad opinions. But those wrong and/or bad opinions shouldn't be able to restrict others from their basic equal rights, no matter who says that they can. That's totalitarianism. For instance, trying to overturn gay marriage. Everyone deserves the right to get married, if they so choose, to whomever they choose, so long as it is a mutual decision between all parties that would be involved in the actual marriage. To tell gay people that they aren't allowed that basic human right is totalitarian dictatorship. The key in that is consent. To say someone cannot marry a goat is not totalitarianism, because the goat cannot give consent or display any understanding of what a marriage even means in any way whatsoever. Same goes with child marriage. They lack the ability to fully understand what they are agreeing to, therefore consent is null and void. Not to mention that both examples are just sick and wrong. That's my opinion, and some would disagree with it. That, in my opinion, makes them equally sick and wrong. But I digress... Totalitarianism is forcing people to have less than those in charge. No one is forcing people to have as much as those in charge.

@MarkiusMahamius You obviously did not understand a thing I wrote.

@Kafirah "However, despite all people being equal, all opinions are not.". Weirdly, I don't agree with either part of that, and it may be the root of our disagreement.

But... The idea that started this discussion, for me, was your statement about "that sort of mentality has no place in civilized society." And from the original post, "I have several goals in building this community - one of which is to help bridge the growing divide in society. ". I don't consider admins goals to be my goals, but I was really surprised to read a post about deciding what sorts of mentalities should be allowed here/ what "has a place". That sort of exclusionary thinking is fundamental to totalitarian thinking, imho.

@Jolanta apparently not. It's very hard to communicate effectively in text alone.

@MarkiusMahamius I get that, differing opinions are a necessary part of growth. Considering things from many angles is invaluable. But the mentality that seeks to restrict the rights of those that don't fit their personal criteria cannot grow a society or a species. It is, at its heart, divisive. Division leads to resentment, which leads to contempt, which leads to hatred, which leads to hateful actions, which leads to destruction and death. So, by denying equal rights to anyone, we, as a civilized society, would be heading down a path that would disqualify us from being either civilized or a society.

@Kafirah Judging people on their beliefs or opinions and calling that "civility" and calling it a criteria for a healthy society, looks good on paper.

i's no different than the belief that only the humans that fit specific racial or gender profiles are inherently necessary to a civil society.

@MarkiusMahamius If we don't judge people by the content of their character, what should we judge them by? And no sir, that is utterly false equivalency. We judge people by their words (opinions and stated beliefs) and their deeds. That is the sum total of what we are able to know of someone other than ourselves. We judge everyone according to that criteria. Some of us are content to judge others by their character. It's when you start judging others for things beyond their control that you are in the wrong. Each of us is solely responsible for our own character and how we present that character to the world. That is the only criteria by which anyone should be judged.

@MarkiusMahamius The point I'm making is when someone's free speech translates to "Hate Speech" or into changes to my rights as a human being. That's where it becomes a problem.

All humans will fight when threatened. (Or at least most).
Take away folks rights and see what happens.

Social media is just that - a social venue. Not life or death. However it IS a place where views might be altered. And in that manner it can be a precious resource.
To change minds.

I had a Father who was somewhat bigoted in the "Archie Bunker" fashion of the day.
None of us kids could stand it.
And with fairly pointed correction and real world interaction - that behavior changed.
So I am aware that people do change. Show them some love - show them some evidence - show them real world examples of what they fear - and that it IS NOT TRUE - and they will change their opinions and become the best of people.

My Dad wasn't a bad person to begin with. He wasn't out to get anyone. He "just" made bad jokes and though less of certain people because of their "otherness". His family helped to change what his environment had taught him.

I firmly believe this can be done out in the world too.

But not if people are going to cuss at each other about it. (Occassional vulgarity can be warranted).

That's just my belief. Everyone has one I'm sure.

But I think the goal here is for social change. To expand on Humanism. To get people talking not fighting.

I had a friend who whole-heartedly believed in Trump and voted for him - we were able to stay friends even though I fully did not believe in Trump - and discuss it - for well over a year - with him changing him mind about two years in.
It wasn't without conflict - but no yelling matches - because of the way we speak to each other.

It's possible. I don't see why more folks don't do it.

I guess it's whether you place any value on the person you speak to. I always do.
When the decide to tell me they hate me? Then I'm done.
No one needs a hater in their life.

@Kafirah My opinion: opinions about <insert current social issue here> do not define character. I care much more about who rapes babies, than I do about who says what about <insert current social issue here>, and I feel much more comfortable with judging people's character based on what they do, not what they say. Im comfortable realing that I don't know jack-crap about most members here, and that I have no right to make decisions about them. For all I know, the most toe-the-line politically woke, civil member here, rapes babies. All i do know, is their right to say what they think. Just like the most regressive jerks here.

I was driving by a line at a soup kitchen this morning. Huge line, huge group of people eating. It was run by a church group that has turned down donations from lgbt+ groups, for moral reasons. Im not advocating they shut down the soup kitchen, and I'm not advocating the church group should define civility either. Opinions just exist.

@MarkiusMahamius Apparently you don't believe "everyone deserves the same basic human rights" because if you did a simple yes would make that clear. Do you know what that makes you?.

@Casey07 do you keep lists of those you feel deserve basic human rights, and those who dont?

@MarkiusMahamius You have a right to free speech. However there is a point at which free speech descends into yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater.

So yelling misinformation and hate speech to incite more misinformation and hate speech and fear? I see that as problematic.

@RavenCT you're more than a little melodramatic here

@MarkiusMahamius presenting misinformation as fact is precisely what the religious have done for eons.

I don't suffer it well anywhere in my life.

It's not melodrama to say free speech - when misused with purposeful lies - can cause harm.

Also if I were a dude would you say I was melodramatic?

@RavenCT absolutely

@MarkiusMahamius I hear your opinion on my statement but I don't find it to be true for myself.

@Bobby9 No where in my statement did I claim to be the abitor of who is and isnt a Humanist. Have a good day!

@JesseThompson My opinion automaticly defines your interpritaion of what I expressed. Yes I am the Arbitor for myself and how I filter others expressions. I offer that same Freedome to everyone and never tell someone what they are or not. I do not Judge your context as you are Judging mine. Enjoy this day..

Your comment is exactly why Admin wrote this post. The gang mentality on this site is ridiculous. No one likes bigotry but those who are the worst perpetrators turn a blind eye to their disgusting behavior.

I've received private messages from other members calling me a bitch and I don't belong on this site because I'm a conservative.

@ArtemisDivine WOW you seem to have jumped off of a cliff. Now you define "why" this post was written. Have a nice day...

@JesseThompson Well, I think it safe to say a humanist probably wouldn't be reading q-anon conspiracy theory nonsense about the secret society of child molesters that just happens to correspond to anyone a certain segment of conservatives already hates (including some conservatives). It's "Obama is a secret Kenyan" times a billion.

I remember when conservative groups first formed here, many of the left leaning morality police, for lack of a better term ATM, joined the conservative groups to "keep an eye on what they're up to" - direct quote - so they actually do have a point about being singled out. Ironic, kinda, considering what some policies they support do in singling out groups of people.

@1of5 Trolling is Wrong, I don't do it. Thats me I can only speak for myself.

@joe1334us not accousing you of it, just pointing out that in some instances it did happen to them - which I find amusing. It's like the old trope about "I don't want to be a minority because of how i treat minorities".

@1of5 what policies of singling out are you referring to?

@JesseThompson Good grief. I was pointing out the conspiracy theory that Hillary Clinton, the Bushes, etc, are part of a "Deep State" cabal of child molesters that only Trump and his allies can thwart. I have no doubt that sex trafficking and sex slavery is very real, but that has nothing to do with crazy people who think Hillary was financing a child sex brothel in the basement of a pizza parlor that had no basement.

@1of5 I bet it did happen, I don't think that changing the Forum to accomadate the "minority" is going to help matters. Again these are just my opinions, take it or leave it, that is not up to me its up to others. As a person with plenty of social media presance and practice I have found as things like christianity die they scream the loudest and demand the most, perhaps "Conservatism" is dying as well?

@ArtemisDivine are you talking about on this site or conservative politics?

@joe1334us I hope certain aspects of it do. I feel the same way about aspects of the far left, too.

@1of5 conservative politics
Can we private message each other. I'm pretty sure that the original post wasnt meant for this discussion

@ArtemisDivine sure, if pm is actually working.

@JesseThompson Good grief.

@1of5 "joined the conservative groups to "keep an eye on what they're up to" - direct quote - so they actually do have a point about being singled out. "...
... i think we can both agree we got nutjobs on both the left and the right..
I still believe that is a small segment in the general tribe.. and yes, should have been dealt with better on both sides.
This is somewhat a new society, and we are learning as we go along..

@hippydog nutjobs in the center, too. I firmly believe somewhere between 15 to 25 % of people are nuts to some extent..

@1of5 " I firmly believe somewhere between 15 to 25 % of people are nuts to some extent.."

Lmao! That almost seems reasonable

I treat everyone with respect and tolerance, until they lose it.

Actually, IMO each person is inherently worthy of respect simply because of their existence as a consciously aware being. Our existence is a miracle beyond all miracles, by all rights to be revered and cherished.

Wallowing in negative, judgmental thoughts results in great unhappiness.

@GothRik Which is no different from saying it has to be earned and deserved.

@WilliamFleming If you consider life to be the result of a "miracle," I couldn't, nor would I try to, prove you wrong. I don't agree, but I seriously doubt our disagreement on that point is going to impact either of our lives. As for the "wallowing" you mention, if that's what you get from my post, you seriously missed the point I was trying to make, because I completely agree that wallowing in negativity results in unhappiness. I don't think anyone would consider that a stunning revelation.

@WilliamFleming miracle? How are you defining miracle? Religiously?

@Wildflower However you wish. Reality is a staggering, mind-bending phenomenon of the utmost significance and value.

I was nodding my head to most of your erudite comments until I came to "because the jibbering idiot in the Oval Office says it's okay." and simply concluded that you are no better than those you have just called out. As I repeatedly say "a broken clock correctly tells the time twice a day".

Why do you concentrate on the time that the clock is broken?

Furthermore if you contemptuously block all further thoughts how will you appreciate the " unbroken" ones and allow yourself to rightfully learn and grow?

@GothRik I've continued thinking about what you wrote and wondering if I 1) sincerely understand how you mean it or 2) agree. I treat strangers POLITELY until they demonstrate they don't deserve it, at which point I will try to ignore them. I can't honestly say I respect strangers, but I obviously have to tolerate them if I interact in public. As for people I get to know, obviously that process entails developing respect, affection, admiration, etc. (or not) for as long as I continue to interact with the person, with the possibility of those feelings changing. If you claim you have some automatic respect and tolerance for everyone, in general, that just seems wildly dubious to me, if not absurd.

@FrayedBear does life and politics in Australia parallel that in the USA?

@WilliamFleming Neuro-scientists say "reality" is the construct we create biochemically in response to our environment, in order to effectively and safely navigate within it.

@FrayedBear I don't believe any other U.S. president in modern history has been proven to utter more outright lies and/or inanely absurd claims than Donald Trump, but everything I wrote is negated by calling him a "jibbering idiot?" I call them as I see them. Too many people, including former aides, attest to the fact that the guy can't read a 3-page intel brief or understand why actions that violate the Constitution are illegal, but I cross a line by assessing him to be an idiot. Okay, how is "the intellectually inferior and cognitively challenged person in the Oval Office?" What description of Trump's truthfulness, intelligence, and intellectual acumen do YOU feel is appropriate, if I'm so terribly wrong in summarizing it as idiocy?

@FrayedBear Upon further consideration, and I am restraining myself from denouncing your accusation more vehemently and colorfully, I am "no better than those I call out?!" How dare you? Honestly? My sincere belief and labelling of Donald Trump as an idiot is comparable to my plowing a car into protesters and killing a young woman? I am on the same level as someone who considers it okay to belittle and threaten the lives of high school students, who bravely and justifiably protested for stricter gun laws, because they want to attend school with a lessened fear of being gunned down? Your presumed and entirely imagined moral high ground exists nowhere but in your mind and online, apparently, where you pontificate about semantics and pompously affect a facade of superiority based on a minor word choice, because I am NOT a person who would continue criticizing a dead man, whom our current president mocked openly while he was dying from brain cancer, dismissing the man's service and survival as a POW, while himself being a draft-dodger. No sir, you must be so tragically confused that I strongly urge you to spend more time considering what you write in response to posts that aren't even directed at you, because there is not a single bit of fact or truth that supports your claim that I am no better than those I call out! Finally, I am concentrating on the political and social reality that exists, not arbitrarily choosing to be a Debbie Downer in the midst of Utopia, and how in the world do you conclude I "contemptuously block all further thoughts...?!" Get your facts straight, man!

@Wildflower Unfortunately thanks to your CIA interfering in Australian democracy - yes.

@TheInterlooper To Whom do your monkeys refer?

@Jerkwater_Oracle Proven by recently dismissed aides. That sounds a very reliable source. How do you fail to respond to the simple questions posed - you are not doing it with your misdirection, iteration of facts on other issues like dying men and draft dodging, attempted gaslighting of "you are confused", your expectation that only you are allowed an opinion - " posts that are not directed at me" - who are they directed at? That last symbol is a question mark - the same symbol used in the ultimate and penultimate sentences of my response to you. Do you not comprehend the function of a "?" is to obtain explanation to clarify my misunderstanding of what you are saying?

@Jerkwater_Oracle you response commencing "I don't believe any other U.S. president" is totally avoiding any good that the Trump Presidency has done.
Doesn't he donate his salary to the benefit of the American people?

@Jerkwater_Oracle So you think reality is all just chemistry—just trivial common-place stuff not worth thinking about, and it’s not real so it needs to be put in quotation marks?

I agree that our personal realities are illusions that we create for survival purposes. Our perceptions need to be organized in a way that helps us react to new stimuli. But behind the scenes is Ultimate Reality, of which science affords ony a few faint glimmers.

Are you taking what you call the “environment” for granted as though it’s really there in the way we perceive it? According to quantum gravity theory time is an illusion, space is made of a finite number of granules, and particles of matter exist as interactions between covariant quantum fields. There are no “things”. The very concept of existence, as we think of existence, has a different meaning at the most basic level.

From a cosmic perspective, the perspective of ultimate reality, existence is indeed a staggering and awesome miracle, and the fact that we humans have conscious awareness of that miracle is highly significant. Ultimate Reality is a profound mystery, but it’s a dazzling mystery, full of joy and hope.

@TheInterlooper It still does not stop them meddling where they are not wanted.

@WilliamFleming 1) Please copy and paste where I have written or elaborated what I believe is the nature of reality. The text to which you refer attributes the definition of "reality" to a neuro-scientific explanation. I haven't written a single thing about my interpretation of reality, how awesome (or not) the universe is, stated that it is common-place or not worth thinking about. Which brings me to the question--why are you trolling my post? Wtf is wrong with you and people like FrayedBear down under who interpret every post written, no matter how unrelated to you it is, as being a soapbox for you to climb onto and begin generally insulting people and sharing your incorrect assumptions? For the record, Ace, when referring to a word in the way I did or quoting from another's writing, you set that word or passage off with quotation marks. It doesn't mean ironic air quotes. It means you're specifically setting off a word or passage, attributing authorship and not representing words as your own, just as you demonstrate by putting "environment" in quotation marks. Am I being nearly as pedantic as you? I'm trying to be. Apparently, you are an expert on "Ultimate Reality," if not the prime source of information about it. @Wildflower asked you how you defined "miracle," to which you answered, "However you wish," but apparently any response or counter I make to YOU responding to MY post is inherently flawed or unacceptable or subject to your analysis, misinterpretation, and snarky commentary...which seems to be entirely the kind of bs @Admin is trying to figure out a way to reduce, if only modestly. I truly don't gaf what your interpretation of reality is, how miraculous you think the universe is, what you mean when you use the word "miracle," what you mean by "Ultimate Reality," your entirely missing the irony inherent in your going from a miracle-based commentary to a quantum mechanics mini-symposium, or what motivates you to deliberately choose to go out of your way to respond to a person's post that 1) is not directed to you and 2) about which you immediately and wildly go off-topic, BUT I can sincerely state, since it IS part of my belief system, that I hope your interpretation of reality is healthy for you, inspires positivity in your life, and gives you a sense of meaning and purpose, because that is my wish for everyone, without miracles or Ultimate Reality, zombie Jesus, or the multiverse having to even be intoned. Now, please...spot something shiny in someone else's post and go troll them, or better yet--allow people to express what they want, how they want, without acting like it is subject to your approval or you're the "Thought Police," which is in quotation marks, since it's a reference to "1984," by George Orwell. You're welcome.

@Jerkwater_Oracle I thought I was responding to your post, addressed to me, that was in response to what I said to Wildflower. I assumed that you were attacking what I said to him about reality.

Anyway, I apologize for offending you.

agnosticism and Atheism are based on rational thought. Conservative politics are rooted in religious controls, and are for the most part irrational.

@dellik That’s a pretty closed minded comment. Especially since there are actually non theist conservatives.

@Annaleda thats your opinion. i disagree.

@dellik ditto

@Annaleda Conservatism - Wikipedia
[en.wikipedia.org]
Conservatism is a political and social philosophy promoting traditional social institutions in the ... Conservatives seek to preserve a range of institutions such as religion, ... In contrast to the tradition-based definition of conservatism, some political .... Cultural conservatives hold fast to traditional ways of thinking even in the ...

I am not alone in believing conservatism is inextricably linked with religion.
Just sayin =/

@Annaleda "Especially since there are actually non theist conservatives."
Yes, and there are christian lgbtq folks too. some people are hypocrites. thats not a rebuttal.

@dellik I believe there are two camps of Conservatives. The atheist ones can call out the religious ones as well. I'll do some more research to see what the covariance is between them.

@Admin Im not saying there are no conservative atheists. Im saying that conservatism as a whole supports and reinforces religious principles. many people support ideologies that are against their stated beliefs.

Annaleda, Show me a conservative idea that supports the rights of all people equally, other than the right for everyone to own an arsenal of weapons, I might ease up on them. Name one.

@Sticks48 And how does that equate to Christian only values?

@altschmerz I’m a Centrist for a reason. There are issues on both side. I got a lot of shit for sticking up for that kid. But I just couldn’t sit back and not speak up for what was right, if not popular.

@Annaleda Nothing. I am talking about why I don't care for conservatives on the site. I don't need to hear another word. They haven't come up with a good idea in around 30 years. As for Christian values, there are more Christian values on this site than there are in the Conservatives in this country. They talk some shit, but talk is all it is.

@altschmerz No. I didn’t expect to. There are still people saying the kid the wrong. I suggest they watch the full video, but the truth is they don’t care about the truth. Period.

I’ve learned to sit back and try to get all the info I can on things. I have jumped on the bandwagon, made assumptions, followed the flock. And felt I looked stupid later—about issues regarding both sides. I might not like admitting that certain groups do good things or are in the right, but if I want to be a fair and good person, I have to give credit (or discredit) where due.

@Sticks48 I don’t care for people like you on this site. You’re just a prejudice, small-minded, prick who thinks he is better than other people. Don’t push me. Asshat.

@Sticks48 And no wonder people are leaving for San Marcus, you are probably the reason. Did you burn down the bar, because conservatives went there? Or did you rob the rock shop, because the owners aren’t your type of people?

@Sticks48 I hate prejudiced people.

@Annaleda I ask you to come up with one good idea conservatives have come up with in the last thirty years and all you can do is call me names .That is very Trumpian of you. Anything Trumpian is driven by pure ignorance. Not liking conservatives and their ideas is not prejudicial anymore than conservatives disliking liberal ideas. They just see things differently.

@irascible many of our problems spring from ignorance.. is what I said. Fear, hate, contempt come from that ignorance. Did you mean psychopathy or psychopathology? Psychopathy is not a major social problem. Psychopathology on the other hand is much more prevalent including many mental health diagnoses. Perhaps you could clarify for me.

The good news is that "not caring" is an intermediate accelerant... not a cause. After years of ongoing frustration in the perceived opposite and antagonist views of the other side, people have now given up communicating and resort to even worse name calling and dehumanization.

@irascible yes, I have total contempt for the psychopaths who have been running corporations like Monsanto, denying climate change, the danger of nuclear proliferation, untested chemicals and war. Refusing to listen or hear what they say however is not going to enable contrary opinions to be expressed.

@Admin sure "not caring" isn't the cause. It's the result. The frustration is palpable.

@irascible psychopathology is the diagnosis of a mental or behavioral disorder. Pychopathy is a personality disorder. As a therapist this is my understanding. Perhaps I learned it incorrectly in my masters studies.

@Wildflower So a psychopath who deliberately uses, lets say gaslighting, to try to drive the one being gaslighted to doubt their sanity or their suicide is not a widespread problem for humanity? That the psychopath who pushes for the spread of nuclear power, the use of insecticides and herbicides on genetically modified plants, the destruction of water tables and environment to produce fracked gas, the poisoning of the oceans and the over cropping of the fish and mammals therein are not huge problems for humanity?

@FrayedBear I apologize for my ignorance. You are absolutely correct. Have a wonderful day Mr. Bear.

@Wildflower I wish that I could but I seem to be surrounded by and attracting psychopaths, obsessive compulsive personality disorder sufferers, narcissists, misandrists, people lacking empathy or sympathy all hellbent on trying to prevent me living my reclusive existance without their control freakishness, gaslighting, projection and perjuries.
How is your world? It was sounding to me like the Big Rock Candy Mountain until I came along and tried to shake your story's aplomb.

@FrayedBear I suggest that you take a little control of your life and shut down your computer. You can have a wonderful day if you choose to. Perhaps you enjoy that which you attract. If you didn't you would not be engaging with "psychopaths, obsessive compulsive personality disorder sufferers, narcissists, misandrists, people lacking empathy or sympathy all hellbent on trying to prevent me living my reclusive existance without their control freakishness, gaslighting, projection and perjuries." Often we project on others that which we despise about ourselves. I am now choosing to disengage with you because I refuse to further encourage your gaslighting tactics.

@Wildflower
Now I am really in ignorance as to how you perceive me to be gaslighting but perhaps you will say that it is my cognitive dissonance that keeps me ignorant or could it simply be that you read something totally different to what I write?
A curious exchange.
Goodbye then and may the Companions of Health, Peace and Fulfilment travel with you.

We have a saying down here "you need to get the dirty water off your chest before it festers and sours you".
Barmaids have been the traditional go to for men after their best friends, doctors and priests. Like good barmaids they are rapidly becoming extinct.

The thing is liberal/conservative is no longer skin deep. The conservative party line these days is 100% for putting children in cages for their parents "crimes", letting people die because basic healthcare is a "privilege not a right" and the millions of homeless, displaced and left behind people just arent worthy of life because they couldn't be " succesful" in the way these people define success. It's not about philosophy anymore, it comes down to whether or not you're ok with millions suffering and dying needlessly to further your political agenda.

@OpposingOpposum Demonizing and hating people because of their political opinions is not very rational or liberal. It’s tit for tat. At heart we are about the same. From a higher perspective we ARE the same IMO.

@FrayedBear I appreciate your response. A friend recently died. I cried at his funeral and I’ve had a week of feeling sort of bereft. The odd thing is that I had no idea he meant so much to me. It’s hard to understand. He was a generation younger also, but I held him in great esteem.

@OpposingOpposum it's about money.

@WilliamFleming horseshit. Some people have ethics some do not. Supporting mass murder is never ethical.

@WilliamFleming, @Wildflower exactly. If you can justify torturing and killing people for money you don't get to claim you are in any way a decent person or someone worth listening to. Ever. Period.

@WilliamFleming Understood. Can I try a rephrase to realign your perspective. What you actually grieve is the loss of opportunity to conclude the bucket list, conscious or subconscious, that you had in respect of future activity with your friend. I was similarly affected by the loss of my elder brother who I always had we would together share a friendly peaceful relationship in the future rather than the cat and dog aggressive one that existed for all but 6 months with the first three decades of our lives.
The answer I suggest is to get out there looking for those who will fulfil the aspirations that you had for your dead friend. IMO the only emotion that you should now have is the joy of the memory of the times that you spent tigerher possibly tinged with a little sadness on his behalf that he possibly did not do all that he wished to whether with you or others.
Lol tell your Companions of Health, Peace and Fulfullment that if they will not attend on you more satisfactorily then the FrayedBear will cast his curse at them!

@FrayedBear What you are saying is definitely a factor. Also I deeply empathize with the man’s father who is having to bear the worst loss of his long life. Projecting myself into that situation has not helped.

Now is the time for me to practice what I’ve been preaching on this forum—to think only true thoughts about the situation.

Time heals and life goes on. Thanks.

@OpposingOpposum I don’t know who you are referring to. Is someone justifying torturing and killing for money?

The point I am trying to make is that it is logically necessary to respect everyone, regardless of their opinions, because from a certain perspective we are all the same thing. Someone claiming to be liberal should especially demonstrate an open mind and tolerance for those whose opinions are different. In the final analysis no one really knows much of anything anyway.

If Adolf Hitler walked in I would treat him with respect and courtesy, even though I think he made horrible mistakes. At heart he is no different than Mother Teresa.

“Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”

—Martin Luther King, Jr.

@WilliamFleming I worry about your Adolf : Teresa analogy and do wonder if you have it the wrong way round. At least Adolf believed that he was doing it for the good of his people, Teresa believed that she was doing it for the good of her religion and her God.

Don’t you think that soon we would be all be just alike? After we rejected all those...not to our liking? Isn’t that kinda what people are doing now?

@Freedompath there is disagreeing with ideas, knowledge, beliefs and practices. Then there are smelly twats and dickheads out to simply cause disharmony, disunity, war and raised blood pressure. Those no one wants near.

@FrayedBear I know...but they ARE part of the fabric of life, wheather we like it or not. We can limit our exposure, as interacting with them, does take the wind out of our sails...but how will they ever be more pliable, if they are not exposed to rational thought process (I think that is what we, ‘others’ think that we are doing).

@Freedompath i agree. Let everybody say what they want. Ignore them if you wish. Free and open debate. No censorship. BUT nothing wrong with asking them politely to be nice. OR to tell them to kick rocks.

@Storm1752 ...all good until, ‘tell them to kick rocks.’ that is not constructive criticism and is actually a put down! Anytime we put each other down...we are dismissing the other person! Wouldn’t it be better to say up-front...I am at a loss here, and rang-out, discussing this, I need to come back to this/that another time? That preserves the dignity of both parties?!

@FrayedBear ,
that's what the blocking feature is for..
no one here is forced to read anyone.

@Freedompath I'm not disagreeing with you or necessarily triphid. There has to be a point for each of us when we say enough is enough and I wash my hands of this person.

@callmedubious Quite agree but you do not have to block. Surely the Grr/Disagree emoji is what should be used not blocking? As I keep repeating "a broken analog clock still tells the correct time twice a day". When you block the blocker misses the twice daily information and the blockee is denied the blocker's thoughts.

@Antidronefreeman Isn't paraphrasing another's comment enabling them to correct any misconception that you have?

@FrayedBear, & others, I was using veiled sarcasm in my original comment btw.

Of course you can avoid them...it's your choice to ignore or listen/read and/or engage in a debate/discussion/argument from their comments.

For those who must engage, I only suggest we "raise the bar". Let's agree not to fight. Let's avoid name-calling. Attack the issue, not the person. I recommend you copy and save this; It's got an official name, FYI..."Graham's hierarchy of disagreement or debate. It's a required meme for many debate classes. Here's a link; [en.wikipedia.org]

@Robecology I meant you can't wipe them out

i think the blocking feature works well enough. anyone that feels harassed can remedy that problem in seconds by blocking.

@callmedubious that doesn't stop the problem it just pushes it on somebody else.

@Bobsuruncle kind of like saying as long as I get vaccinated and don't have measles we'll be okay?

@Robecology I highly recommend Agnostic.com learn NVC - NON-VIOLENT COMMUNICATION (or Compassion Communication) 3rd edition by Dr Marshall Rosenberg. Excellent communication, listening and conflict resolution skills. I'm now studying it again for the 4th time since I just learned they had edited it again, refining this amazing tool. It truly works if you know how to apply it.

@DeafGypsy A book is hard to pick up....a simple image is easier to read....and thus reaches more people.

The pyramid says it all; most communicate at the lowest level; that of the "name-call".
slightly fewer raise that to the next level; and very few make it to the top of the pyramid.

That's why I'm much more prone to throwing up quick images, and short videos...it reaches more, and makes the point quicker.

Here it is again; simplified. I recommend you download it to "photos" and post it often.

@Robecology Thanks, I like the image. I pasted it and the title line and when I get my printer up I will print and hang it.

more active thought policing? Huh, how could that go wrong.

@dellik Not thought policing but behavior policing. If a web site creator wants civil behavior which provides for a safe and inclusive environment s/he must make it so. Ad hominem and hateful behavior should not be tolerated. Bad behavior causes good, decent people to go away, stifles intelligent discussion and turns nice places like this into a troll infested free for all.

@dare2dream open discourse encourages those with contemptible philosophies to expose themselves. I like my bigots loud and proud. much easier to handle.

..."good conduct". Yeah, that's a really loaded subject. There have been others who really wanted to install themselves as the "behavior police".
I don't like that idea any more now, than I did then.
Nope. Nope. Nope.
I say NO to any and all censorship, across the board.

@KKGator I find the 'block' feature provides me with the exact amount of censorship I am ok with. yeah, its annoying when someone does it to me out of spite, r what ever reasons they chose, but ultimately its acceptable with the trade off of being able to do the same.

@dellik Precisely.
I get blocked all the time, for all sorts of reasons.
It's no big deal.

Unfortunately some like @dellick are unable to argue without using viteraputive language, projection, ad hominem, contempt and attempted gaslighting.

@KKGator I've seen intellegeent, civil and enjoyable web sites devolve into hate filled, juvenile, troll infested sewers where all the decent people leave. But if an unmoderated, free for all, food fight is your cup of tea, may I suggest craigslist forums. You might like it.

@dare2dream Craigslist is so six years ago.

The problems with not talking about money, politics or religion are that we never learn to discuss them rationally and we never learn to tolerate or welcome our beliefs being challenged. That way lies intellectual stagnation.

@OpposingOpposum True, but there are groups for that. When I go to the pub for the evening I want to talk about music, books, films how someone is getting on rebuilding their motorbike, how their job is going, what they did when they were kids, history, etc., anything but religion or politics. The same when I come on here

@GothRik ffs if you only ever talk to people who agree with you, you never learn anything. We can't only hold the important conversations in dark little corners with 4 or 5 people who agree with us. "Civility above all" will be the literal death of us.

@OpposingOpposum I give up, OK I will put up with the all the BS that is politics and religion and not talk about anything else, shall I? What will I learn from that? I've made a big mistake if that is what this site is about, I clearly do not belong here.

@GothRik I see that you are replying to a member whom I eventually blocked. I do not remember now if that was my tit for tat or that I had had enough. Similarly you have the ability to exclude yourself from this threads and topics that irritate you. Like you I have very little truck with politics. That is due to being politically assassinated at the age of 18 because I wanted to learn by watching a BBC programme on a British Prime Minister on tv when the association that I belonged to wanted me to party, talk about "baubles, bangles and beads" and raise money for them by getting drunk at their outrageously overpriced liquor bar. I ignored their demands as I do the contributions to about 800 groups on this site.
Ok I make the bed that I sleep in but I do lie straight and sleep without concerning that I have the previous day lived according to my code of honour, truth and respect for others without being a mind reader.

@FrayedBear I have religion and politics selected in "Show less of these", but they still dominate my feed.

@GothRik Unfortunately I cannot answer that. What does FAQ at the bottom of the page offer? If nothing then I suggest you ask Site Admin and if you have no luck there try the Community Senate and the two guys who do the programming Admin & DevTest.

@GothRik FAQ LINK

[agnostic.com]

That's funny, until your last sentence, I thought you were talking about the social justice warriors that run a mock on this site, pitchforks a torches ablaze. Not their targets.

@MarkiusMahamius uh huh.

@MarkiusMahamius please tell... how is that funny?

@MarkiusMahamius Of course, who wants social justice? What a terrible idea!

This of course is one of the people we're supposed to reach out to and reason with. Why? What possible benefit can an individual like this ever offer @Admin?

@OpposingOpposum Exactly.

Thank you, Totally agree. The beginning of this post (second paragraph) sounds suspiciously like something Spike would say... It's what he's been selling all along and I'm not buying it. People just need to walk the walk. I don't engage with the political drama here. At all, and as a "lefty" don't want to be blamed for "starting" it either.

What you describe is called a "truism" where you setup the premise to fulfill your conclusion. Yes, someone who says things you think are subhuman would be subhuman to you. I believe that such people are much more rare than what we see in social media... even the ones we interact with.

@Seeker3CO Absolutely. I think disagreement is fine, and I see lots of that — and we definitely don't need to give a pass to intolerant words and proclamations — but I think criticism of these things as well as general disagreement about ideology is somehow being conflated with the relatively infrequent abuse of people when it's genuinely a personal attack. While conservative members may feel like they're outnumbered here, and maybe don't feel especially welcomed, that's a far cry from the majority of members mistreating the minority.

@Seeker3CO Wait, I'm not a "humanist", neither am I "on the left".
I think there are far too many gross generalizations being tossed around.
Not by you specifically, but too many in general.

There is a "My followed posts" link on the main page.

Perhaps could put a list of friends with new content.

I do. We have returned the general forum and are making changes to keep the conversations moderate and civil. Much better to get the community to formulate a plan than to have it proscribed from above. Just talk to Moses.

@dellik Your proof is?

@FrayedBear are you really asking me what my proof of us being driven apart is? ... really?

@dellik Working hard not to respond facetiously or sarcastically - yes. . . really!

@FrayedBear Geez, well, we could just take Admin agreeing, and having taken steps to rectify the problem.... Or just the teeny tinest bit of common sense.. That by removing communal space, it makes it hard to gather as a community.... roflmao

@Wildflower Oh I know, and I have so much fun playing with him. best part is it thinks its smart, makes it sooooo much easier. =)

OH YEAH??!!??

I really like your inverted triangle. Very good.

@Storm1752 Inverted?

@Robecology I think that@Storm1752 means that the content is inverted to the proportion or quantity of times that each is used. Ad hominem being the least used.

@Robecology the last layer of the triangle is the largest. The top, smallest is probably used the most.

@FrayedBear That triangle lays out a sort of an ideal, or wishful thinking behavior. Ideal at the top (and often least employed) vs the real - and most often employed, or used - at the base.

I WISH the top were used the most; but I'm afraid that debaters rarely "refute the specific point"...it's often (and sadly, most commonly) a personal attack, or at least an "ad hominem" attack.

Having said that; I'm on Facebook far less, and here far more often because more folk here debate the issues rather than go to the lower end of the triangle. Thanks for being among those "at the top"!

@Robecology My comment has been simply based upon Agnostic.com experiences. And yes I have seen some who are unable to do anything other than ad hominem attacks. If you look at the number of visitors on a thread then the number of emojis and posts on the thread then you will find that is usually less than half who leave an emoji or make a written response.

We will start with a minor feature idea but follow it up with exercises.

But equally how honest is it to reply to the question "how are you?" with "I'm OK" when in fact you are in screaming pain needing analgesic as a result of your physical symptoms and a very bad reaction to your monthly menstruation which is pushing you to padded cell insanity?
I understand that most people do not genuinely ask "how are you?" the question being as fatuous as the checkout chick saying "have a nice day".

@FrayedBear i always answer honestly - I do not ever give chapter and verse. It would freak out the folks who are more normative and that's never my goal.
You can give a piece of honesty without sending someone to therapy.

@RavenCT I wasn't necessarily asking for c&v but a simple "not good", " up and down like a fidler's elbow", "wrong time of the month" I suggest is preferable and will elicit in most case appropriate sympathy or request for further information.

@FrayedBear quite true! But the Dr who deals with chronic patients caught me the other day... "How are you?" she said - " Oh I'm fine" I replied.
Then she said "No really ... How are you?" .
We were going to get down to brass tacks either way but humor is always a good thing.

@RavenCT Hmmm Doctors are a different kettle of narcissistic fish.

Well, at least we're not baby killers. We have that going for us.

@ArtemisDivine Neither are we. but at least we have a grasp on science lmfao.

I have a gut deep fear of what may come down the road from this time of extreme turbulence and the way "otherness" is ridiculed from positions of safety.
I'm old enough to have met survivors of Hitler's tactics and these political time scare me deeply.
I'd love to hear an approach to someone who thinks my life has less value because I'm disabled. Or to the folks who slam trans people repeatedly. I have two in my life I fear for.
Speaking in nice ways to the people who keep dredging up hate? I already do that.
I try to educate.
But if they are just here with bad intent what then? Turn the other cheek? That's not me.
I can be level headed but I am tired of the folks cutting on "others" with words with no repercussions.
It's not once. It's repeated.
But we are supposed to remain welcoming? That isn't how I was taught to enact change. Because that's bullying.
And you don't feed bullies.

Progressive EU countries? wow. really? I am a socialist and do not recognise this comment in anyway. There are righteous caring people on the right. My Dad is right wing (British) and believes in the ideals of hard work and constant endeavour. He does however, believe in taxes and providing for those who can't for themselves. I do not see the right as the enemy, I see them as misguided. I am here to shed light on their beliefs. Now saying that, the extreme right are most definitely the enemy, as are potentially the extreme left, as are radical Christians, Muslims and Jews. I think it is extreme views, intractable and fixed that are the real evil in this world.

@Amisja "Progressive EU countries? wow. really?" Your comment is too ambiguous to express any useful information. While you may have a strong emotional reaction, your statement is of no use in figuring out your frame of reference.

@Amisja What do you mean by the 'extreme left?'
Just curiious. I'M extreme left, at least I thought so. But maybe I misunderstand you.

@DangerDave Well I'm agnostic, so I am annoying to theists and atheists lol

I don't think that those with diametrically opposing views can never get along. I just don't think it's likely. At least not for too long. If they only are around each other for a short time or infrequently then they can probably get along. I think the ones that get along are the exceptions though and they probably don't spend a lot of time together because they don't want to.

I'm thinking about a shift in the definition of "winning". Recently, "winning" means "getting what my side wants". More later...

And there you nail it. It becomes ego driven irationality.

personally, i don't think those ppl are that stupid. rather, i think they're just having fun with the super serious practical types.