The problems with not talking about money, politics or religion are that we never learn to discuss them rationally and we never learn to tolerate or welcome our beliefs being challenged. That way lies intellectual stagnation.

@OpposingOpposum True, but there are groups for that. When I go to the pub for the evening I want to talk about music, books, films how someone is getting on rebuilding their motorbike, how their job is going, what they did when they were kids, history, etc., anything but religion or politics. The same when I come on here

@GothRik ffs if you only ever talk to people who agree with you, you never learn anything. We can't only hold the important conversations in dark little corners with 4 or 5 people who agree with us. "Civility above all" will be the literal death of us.

@OpposingOpposum I give up, OK I will put up with the all the BS that is politics and religion and not talk about anything else, shall I? What will I learn from that? I've made a big mistake if that is what this site is about, I clearly do not belong here.

@GothRik I see that you are replying to a member whom I eventually blocked. I do not remember now if that was my tit for tat or that I had had enough. Similarly you have the ability to exclude yourself from this threads and topics that irritate you. Like you I have very little truck with politics. That is due to being politically assassinated at the age of 18 because I wanted to learn by watching a BBC programme on a British Prime Minister on tv when the association that I belonged to wanted me to party, talk about "baubles, bangles and beads" and raise money for them by getting drunk at their outrageously overpriced liquor bar. I ignored their demands as I do the contributions to about 800 groups on this site.
Ok I make the bed that I sleep in but I do lie straight and sleep without concerning that I have the previous day lived according to my code of honour, truth and respect for others without being a mind reader.

@FrayedBear I have religion and politics selected in "Show less of these", but they still dominate my feed.

@GothRik Unfortunately I cannot answer that. What does FAQ at the bottom of the page offer? If nothing then I suggest you ask Site Admin and if you have no luck there try the Community Senate and the two guys who do the programming Admin & DevTest.

@GothRik FAQ LINK

[agnostic.com]

GREAT feedback as we often get complicated and have to trim down features. It'll be the simplest possible.

@Admin A case in point is "Passions" which was set up at the very beginning of the institution of groups on the site. I am delighted to see that wonderful idea has now grown to 800+ groups in number. It was conceived not only as a stepping stone for members to find their like-minded passionate members and then create their own specific interest group when sufficient numbers were located but also to allow people to caste aside the mantle of mediocre unresponsive anonymity noted by Billy Connolly as resulting in "beige people". If other words if you come out and declare your passion it will likely attract like minded people. Trolls would be rapidly blocked from the group if they did not respect the other members and rectify their posts in the group setting.

How about a May pole instead? Colorful streamers...

@Admin

Positively pagan!

Agreed, the feature is a bit of a red herring as the key message is about communication and the pitfall of group speak. Oh, wait, did I just say that out loud?

Thanks, I'll try to write more now that the code is a bit more stable.

@DangerDave Well I'm agnostic, so I am annoying to theists and atheists lol

I don't think that those with diametrically opposing views can never get along. I just don't think it's likely. At least not for too long. If they only are around each other for a short time or infrequently then they can probably get along. I think the ones that get along are the exceptions though and they probably don't spend a lot of time together because they don't want to.

I'm thinking about a shift in the definition of "winning". Recently, "winning" means "getting what my side wants". More later...

And there you nail it. It becomes ego driven irationality.

I hear you. I've seen this pickup in the last year and it's fueling the deplatforming push my Facebook/Twitter/etc. They're taking the fast and safe approach instead of the complicated consensus building approach. There is hope in the algorithm if it can optimized for community instead of profit. We'll work on that here and hopefully have results.

I'd happy to give a T-shirt to anyone who improves the relationship between them and someone expressing hurt. How to measure it?

@Admin
Perhaps hold a contest and give away t shirts to anyone who improves our community here by promoting kindness, helpfulness, empathy, and compassion. Someone that bolsters our experiences here.
Someone would have to nominate them, post a reason why, and everyone would comment on it. Add in their experience with the nominee.

Pick a few shining stars

@Admin perhaps a new group to suggest a list of rules compliance with which results in points whether or not for a T shirt is irrelevant to me. Equally I abhor the concept of a competition. Competition tend to bring out the worst in people - look at parent spectator behaviour at school games let alone professional games! I believe that any award should be unexpected and out of the blue. The recipient choosing whether they wish to publicise the award or not. Modesty like humility is a virtue frequently spoiled by publicity. The deed however should be praised and publisised in the mainstream posts without identifying the award recipient or identifying aspects of the deed.

We will start with a minor feature idea but follow it up with exercises.

But equally how honest is it to reply to the question "how are you?" with "I'm OK" when in fact you are in screaming pain needing analgesic as a result of your physical symptoms and a very bad reaction to your monthly menstruation which is pushing you to padded cell insanity?
I understand that most people do not genuinely ask "how are you?" the question being as fatuous as the checkout chick saying "have a nice day".

@FrayedBear i always answer honestly - I do not ever give chapter and verse. It would freak out the folks who are more normative and that's never my goal.
You can give a piece of honesty without sending someone to therapy.

@RavenCT I wasn't necessarily asking for c&v but a simple "not good", " up and down like a fidler's elbow", "wrong time of the month" I suggest is preferable and will elicit in most case appropriate sympathy or request for further information.

@FrayedBear quite true! But the Dr who deals with chronic patients caught me the other day... "How are you?" she said - " Oh I'm fine" I replied.
Then she said "No really ... How are you?" .
We were going to get down to brass tacks either way but humor is always a good thing.

@RavenCT Hmmm Doctors are a different kettle of narcissistic fish.

I do. We have returned the general forum and are making changes to keep the conversations moderate and civil. Much better to get the community to formulate a plan than to have it proscribed from above. Just talk to Moses.

@dellik Your proof is?

@FrayedBear are you really asking me what my proof of us being driven apart is? ... really?

@dellik Working hard not to respond facetiously or sarcastically - yes. . . really!

@FrayedBear Geez, well, we could just take Admin agreeing, and having taken steps to rectify the problem.... Or just the teeny tinest bit of common sense.. That by removing communal space, it makes it hard to gather as a community.... roflmao

@Wildflower Oh I know, and I have so much fun playing with him. best part is it thinks its smart, makes it sooooo much easier. =)

@irascible many of our problems spring from ignorance.. is what I said. Fear, hate, contempt come from that ignorance. Did you mean psychopathy or psychopathology? Psychopathy is not a major social problem. Psychopathology on the other hand is much more prevalent including many mental health diagnoses. Perhaps you could clarify for me.

The good news is that "not caring" is an intermediate accelerant... not a cause. After years of ongoing frustration in the perceived opposite and antagonist views of the other side, people have now given up communicating and resort to even worse name calling and dehumanization.

@irascible yes, I have total contempt for the psychopaths who have been running corporations like Monsanto, denying climate change, the danger of nuclear proliferation, untested chemicals and war. Refusing to listen or hear what they say however is not going to enable contrary opinions to be expressed.

@Admin sure "not caring" isn't the cause. It's the result. The frustration is palpable.

@irascible psychopathology is the diagnosis of a mental or behavioral disorder. Pychopathy is a personality disorder. As a therapist this is my understanding. Perhaps I learned it incorrectly in my masters studies.

@Wildflower So a psychopath who deliberately uses, lets say gaslighting, to try to drive the one being gaslighted to doubt their sanity or their suicide is not a widespread problem for humanity? That the psychopath who pushes for the spread of nuclear power, the use of insecticides and herbicides on genetically modified plants, the destruction of water tables and environment to produce fracked gas, the poisoning of the oceans and the over cropping of the fish and mammals therein are not huge problems for humanity?

@FrayedBear I apologize for my ignorance. You are absolutely correct. Have a wonderful day Mr. Bear.

@Wildflower I wish that I could but I seem to be surrounded by and attracting psychopaths, obsessive compulsive personality disorder sufferers, narcissists, misandrists, people lacking empathy or sympathy all hellbent on trying to prevent me living my reclusive existance without their control freakishness, gaslighting, projection and perjuries.
How is your world? It was sounding to me like the Big Rock Candy Mountain until I came along and tried to shake your story's aplomb.

@FrayedBear I suggest that you take a little control of your life and shut down your computer. You can have a wonderful day if you choose to. Perhaps you enjoy that which you attract. If you didn't you would not be engaging with "psychopaths, obsessive compulsive personality disorder sufferers, narcissists, misandrists, people lacking empathy or sympathy all hellbent on trying to prevent me living my reclusive existance without their control freakishness, gaslighting, projection and perjuries." Often we project on others that which we despise about ourselves. I am now choosing to disengage with you because I refuse to further encourage your gaslighting tactics.

@Wildflower
Now I am really in ignorance as to how you perceive me to be gaslighting but perhaps you will say that it is my cognitive dissonance that keeps me ignorant or could it simply be that you read something totally different to what I write?
A curious exchange.
Goodbye then and may the Companions of Health, Peace and Fulfilment travel with you.

I treat everyone with respect and tolerance, until they lose it.

Actually, IMO each person is inherently worthy of respect simply because of their existence as a consciously aware being. Our existence is a miracle beyond all miracles, by all rights to be revered and cherished.

Wallowing in negative, judgmental thoughts results in great unhappiness.

@GothRik Which is no different from saying it has to be earned and deserved.

@WilliamFleming If you consider life to be the result of a "miracle," I couldn't, nor would I try to, prove you wrong. I don't agree, but I seriously doubt our disagreement on that point is going to impact either of our lives. As for the "wallowing" you mention, if that's what you get from my post, you seriously missed the point I was trying to make, because I completely agree that wallowing in negativity results in unhappiness. I don't think anyone would consider that a stunning revelation.

@WilliamFleming miracle? How are you defining miracle? Religiously?

@Wildflower However you wish. Reality is a staggering, mind-bending phenomenon of the utmost significance and value.

I was nodding my head to most of your erudite comments until I came to "because the jibbering idiot in the Oval Office says it's okay." and simply concluded that you are no better than those you have just called out. As I repeatedly say "a broken clock correctly tells the time twice a day".

Why do you concentrate on the time that the clock is broken?

Furthermore if you contemptuously block all further thoughts how will you appreciate the " unbroken" ones and allow yourself to rightfully learn and grow?

@GothRik I've continued thinking about what you wrote and wondering if I 1) sincerely understand how you mean it or 2) agree. I treat strangers POLITELY until they demonstrate they don't deserve it, at which point I will try to ignore them. I can't honestly say I respect strangers, but I obviously have to tolerate them if I interact in public. As for people I get to know, obviously that process entails developing respect, affection, admiration, etc. (or not) for as long as I continue to interact with the person, with the possibility of those feelings changing. If you claim you have some automatic respect and tolerance for everyone, in general, that just seems wildly dubious to me, if not absurd.

@FrayedBear does life and politics in Australia parallel that in the USA?

@WilliamFleming Neuro-scientists say "reality" is the construct we create biochemically in response to our environment, in order to effectively and safely navigate within it.

@FrayedBear I don't believe any other U.S. president in modern history has been proven to utter more outright lies and/or inanely absurd claims than Donald Trump, but everything I wrote is negated by calling him a "jibbering idiot?" I call them as I see them. Too many people, including former aides, attest to the fact that the guy can't read a 3-page intel brief or understand why actions that violate the Constitution are illegal, but I cross a line by assessing him to be an idiot. Okay, how is "the intellectually inferior and cognitively challenged person in the Oval Office?" What description of Trump's truthfulness, intelligence, and intellectual acumen do YOU feel is appropriate, if I'm so terribly wrong in summarizing it as idiocy?

@FrayedBear Upon further consideration, and I am restraining myself from denouncing your accusation more vehemently and colorfully, I am "no better than those I call out?!" How dare you? Honestly? My sincere belief and labelling of Donald Trump as an idiot is comparable to my plowing a car into protesters and killing a young woman? I am on the same level as someone who considers it okay to belittle and threaten the lives of high school students, who bravely and justifiably protested for stricter gun laws, because they want to attend school with a lessened fear of being gunned down? Your presumed and entirely imagined moral high ground exists nowhere but in your mind and online, apparently, where you pontificate about semantics and pompously affect a facade of superiority based on a minor word choice, because I am NOT a person who would continue criticizing a dead man, whom our current president mocked openly while he was dying from brain cancer, dismissing the man's service and survival as a POW, while himself being a draft-dodger. No sir, you must be so tragically confused that I strongly urge you to spend more time considering what you write in response to posts that aren't even directed at you, because there is not a single bit of fact or truth that supports your claim that I am no better than those I call out! Finally, I am concentrating on the political and social reality that exists, not arbitrarily choosing to be a Debbie Downer in the midst of Utopia, and how in the world do you conclude I "contemptuously block all further thoughts...?!" Get your facts straight, man!

@Wildflower Unfortunately thanks to your CIA interfering in Australian democracy - yes.

@TheInterlooper To Whom do your monkeys refer?

@Jerkwater_Oracle Proven by recently dismissed aides. That sounds a very reliable source. How do you fail to respond to the simple questions posed - you are not doing it with your misdirection, iteration of facts on other issues like dying men and draft dodging, attempted gaslighting of "you are confused", your expectation that only you are allowed an opinion - " posts that are not directed at me" - who are they directed at? That last symbol is a question mark - the same symbol used in the ultimate and penultimate sentences of my response to you. Do you not comprehend the function of a "?" is to obtain explanation to clarify my misunderstanding of what you are saying?

@Jerkwater_Oracle you response commencing "I don't believe any other U.S. president" is totally avoiding any good that the Trump Presidency has done.
Doesn't he donate his salary to the benefit of the American people?

@Jerkwater_Oracle So you think reality is all just chemistry—just trivial common-place stuff not worth thinking about, and it’s not real so it needs to be put in quotation marks?

I agree that our personal realities are illusions that we create for survival purposes. Our perceptions need to be organized in a way that helps us react to new stimuli. But behind the scenes is Ultimate Reality, of which science affords ony a few faint glimmers.

Are you taking what you call the “environment” for granted as though it’s really there in the way we perceive it? According to quantum gravity theory time is an illusion, space is made of a finite number of granules, and particles of matter exist as interactions between covariant quantum fields. There are no “things”. The very concept of existence, as we think of existence, has a different meaning at the most basic level.

From a cosmic perspective, the perspective of ultimate reality, existence is indeed a staggering and awesome miracle, and the fact that we humans have conscious awareness of that miracle is highly significant. Ultimate Reality is a profound mystery, but it’s a dazzling mystery, full of joy and hope.

@TheInterlooper It still does not stop them meddling where they are not wanted.

@WilliamFleming 1) Please copy and paste where I have written or elaborated what I believe is the nature of reality. The text to which you refer attributes the definition of "reality" to a neuro-scientific explanation. I haven't written a single thing about my interpretation of reality, how awesome (or not) the universe is, stated that it is common-place or not worth thinking about. Which brings me to the question--why are you trolling my post? Wtf is wrong with you and people like FrayedBear down under who interpret every post written, no matter how unrelated to you it is, as being a soapbox for you to climb onto and begin generally insulting people and sharing your incorrect assumptions? For the record, Ace, when referring to a word in the way I did or quoting from another's writing, you set that word or passage off with quotation marks. It doesn't mean ironic air quotes. It means you're specifically setting off a word or passage, attributing authorship and not representing words as your own, just as you demonstrate by putting "environment" in quotation marks. Am I being nearly as pedantic as you? I'm trying to be. Apparently, you are an expert on "Ultimate Reality," if not the prime source of information about it. @Wildflower asked you how you defined "miracle," to which you answered, "However you wish," but apparently any response or counter I make to YOU responding to MY post is inherently flawed or unacceptable or subject to your analysis, misinterpretation, and snarky commentary...which seems to be entirely the kind of bs @Admin is trying to figure out a way to reduce, if only modestly. I truly don't gaf what your interpretation of reality is, how miraculous you think the universe is, what you mean when you use the word "miracle," what you mean by "Ultimate Reality," your entirely missing the irony inherent in your going from a miracle-based commentary to a quantum mechanics mini-symposium, or what motivates you to deliberately choose to go out of your way to respond to a person's post that 1) is not directed to you and 2) about which you immediately and wildly go off-topic, BUT I can sincerely state, since it IS part of my belief system, that I hope your interpretation of reality is healthy for you, inspires positivity in your life, and gives you a sense of meaning and purpose, because that is my wish for everyone, without miracles or Ultimate Reality, zombie Jesus, or the multiverse having to even be intoned. Now, please...spot something shiny in someone else's post and go troll them, or better yet--allow people to express what they want, how they want, without acting like it is subject to your approval or you're the "Thought Police," which is in quotation marks, since it's a reference to "1984," by George Orwell. You're welcome.

@Jerkwater_Oracle I thought I was responding to your post, addressed to me, that was in response to what I said to Wildflower. I assumed that you were attacking what I said to him about reality.

Anyway, I apologize for offending you.

So you are advocating that members of agnostics should be like your stylised married couple and just go and find another social site?

@FrayedBear I'm not advocating anything, I was merely stating my opinion on the subject. This mentality could possibly happen from being married multiple times or have been in a lot of relationships.

Agreed that dating sites made our expectations higher which made many people less happy (and a few much happier)

We have a saying down here "you need to get the dirty water off your chest before it festers and sours you".
Barmaids have been the traditional go to for men after their best friends, doctors and priests. Like good barmaids they are rapidly becoming extinct.

The thing is liberal/conservative is no longer skin deep. The conservative party line these days is 100% for putting children in cages for their parents "crimes", letting people die because basic healthcare is a "privilege not a right" and the millions of homeless, displaced and left behind people just arent worthy of life because they couldn't be " succesful" in the way these people define success. It's not about philosophy anymore, it comes down to whether or not you're ok with millions suffering and dying needlessly to further your political agenda.

@OpposingOpposum Demonizing and hating people because of their political opinions is not very rational or liberal. It’s tit for tat. At heart we are about the same. From a higher perspective we ARE the same IMO.

@FrayedBear I appreciate your response. A friend recently died. I cried at his funeral and I’ve had a week of feeling sort of bereft. The odd thing is that I had no idea he meant so much to me. It’s hard to understand. He was a generation younger also, but I held him in great esteem.

@OpposingOpposum it's about money.

@WilliamFleming horseshit. Some people have ethics some do not. Supporting mass murder is never ethical.

@WilliamFleming, @Wildflower exactly. If you can justify torturing and killing people for money you don't get to claim you are in any way a decent person or someone worth listening to. Ever. Period.

@WilliamFleming Understood. Can I try a rephrase to realign your perspective. What you actually grieve is the loss of opportunity to conclude the bucket list, conscious or subconscious, that you had in respect of future activity with your friend. I was similarly affected by the loss of my elder brother who I always had we would together share a friendly peaceful relationship in the future rather than the cat and dog aggressive one that existed for all but 6 months with the first three decades of our lives.
The answer I suggest is to get out there looking for those who will fulfil the aspirations that you had for your dead friend. IMO the only emotion that you should now have is the joy of the memory of the times that you spent tigerher possibly tinged with a little sadness on his behalf that he possibly did not do all that he wished to whether with you or others.
Lol tell your Companions of Health, Peace and Fulfullment that if they will not attend on you more satisfactorily then the FrayedBear will cast his curse at them!

@FrayedBear What you are saying is definitely a factor. Also I deeply empathize with the man’s father who is having to bear the worst loss of his long life. Projecting myself into that situation has not helped.

Now is the time for me to practice what I’ve been preaching on this forum—to think only true thoughts about the situation.

Time heals and life goes on. Thanks.

@OpposingOpposum I don’t know who you are referring to. Is someone justifying torturing and killing for money?

The point I am trying to make is that it is logically necessary to respect everyone, regardless of their opinions, because from a certain perspective we are all the same thing. Someone claiming to be liberal should especially demonstrate an open mind and tolerance for those whose opinions are different. In the final analysis no one really knows much of anything anyway.

If Adolf Hitler walked in I would treat him with respect and courtesy, even though I think he made horrible mistakes. At heart he is no different than Mother Teresa.

“Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”

—Martin Luther King, Jr.

@WilliamFleming I worry about your Adolf : Teresa analogy and do wonder if you have it the wrong way round. At least Adolf believed that he was doing it for the good of his people, Teresa believed that she was doing it for the good of her religion and her God.

That's funny, until your last sentence, I thought you were talking about the social justice warriors that run a mock on this site, pitchforks a torches ablaze. Not their targets.

@MarkiusMahamius uh huh.

@MarkiusMahamius please tell... how is that funny?

@MarkiusMahamius Of course, who wants social justice? What a terrible idea!

This of course is one of the people we're supposed to reach out to and reason with. Why? What possible benefit can an individual like this ever offer @Admin?

@OpposingOpposum Exactly.

Thank you, Totally agree. The beginning of this post (second paragraph) sounds suspiciously like something Spike would say... It's what he's been selling all along and I'm not buying it. People just need to walk the walk. I don't engage with the political drama here. At all, and as a "lefty" don't want to be blamed for "starting" it either.

What you describe is called a "truism" where you setup the premise to fulfill your conclusion. Yes, someone who says things you think are subhuman would be subhuman to you. I believe that such people are much more rare than what we see in social media... even the ones we interact with.

Thanks for the resources

personally, i don't think those ppl are that stupid. rather, i think they're just having fun with the super serious practical types.

@callmedubious The people in the documentary were not stupid. They were just ignorant of this one fact and any evidence surrounding that fact (sometimes willfully ignorant). I at first thought as you did--that they were pulling legs simply to piss off scientists. But of the people featured in the documentary, that simply did not seem the case to me. These people traveled hundreds of miles to conventions, an eclipse (they claimed it was just another part of the projection on the "dome" ), designed fairly involved experiments to try to prove the earth is flat, etc. The documentary ends with an experiment that--surprise!--unexpectedly showed the earth is curved. The man conducting the experiment seemed to be fighting an epiphany when he mumbled, "Interesting. Interesting there." ...long, considered pause about the ramifications of the experiment. "That's interesting."

@greyeyed123 ,
what the hell were they taught in grade 9 science?
when i was a teenager in the navy i was a lookout on a destroyer escort & was scanning the horizon with 20 power binoculars. i watched the bow of our aircraft carrier appear to be coming straight out of the ocean & within a few seconds the entire ship appeared.
still one of the neatest things i ever saw.

@callmedubious As I said, willfully ignorant. There were even little clips of excuses why that experiment showed a curved earth rather than a flat earth during the credits...just as the psychiatrist predicted in the doc. If something doesn't already fit this cherished belief (around which they have spun their entire identities), they rationalize why that is. As one person in the doc put it, if they realize they are wrong and announce it, the rest of the world doesn't care, but their fellow flat earthers (friends/insiders) will abandon them. They will basically lose everything, much the way a minister who loses faith may not tell anyone for fear of losing his family, friends, community...and job (many of the famous flat earthers seem to have created HUGE internet personalities for themselves that I can only assume has been monetized). When you've built your entire life around this one thing, rejecting it may become psychologically, emotionally, and even financially impossible.

Ummm, maybe they left because they just didn't have any real argument. And their spew was not worth buying into.

I support you.