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Does teaching "white guilt" also cultivate a "white pride" backlash?

Glenn Loury, a black author and professor of Economics at Brown University, recently wrote an article entitled "Unspeakable Truths about Racial Inequality in America". In it, he lists ways that "cancel culture" is enforcing a world-view that is often not fully backed up with facts and evidence. He posits further that the vilification of white people and their ancestors could result in an argumentatively justifiable "white pride" backlash. Specifically, he writes:


I wonder if the “white-guilt” and “white-apologia” and “white-privilege” view of the world cannot exist except also to give birth to a “white-pride” backlash, even if the latter is seldom expressed overtly—it being politically incorrect to do so.

Confronted by someone who is constantly bludgeoning me about the evils of colonialism, urging me to tear down the statues of “dead white men,” insisting that I apologize for what my white forebears did to the “peoples of color” in years past, demanding that I settle my historical indebtedness via reparations, and so forth—I well might begin to ask myself, were I one of these “white oppressors,” on exactly what foundations does human civilization in the 21st century stand? I might begin to enumerate the great works of philosophy, mathematics, and science that ushered in the “Age of Enlightenment,” that allowed modern medicine to exist, that gave rise to the core of human knowledge about the origins of the species or of the universe. I might begin to tick-off the great artistic achievements of European culture, the architectural innovations, the paintings, the symphonies, etc. And then, were I in a particularly agitated mood, I might even ask these “people of color,” who think that they can simply bully me into a state of guilt-ridden self-loathing, where is “their” civilization?

Now, everything I just said exemplifies “racist” and “white supremacist” rhetoric. I wish to stipulate that I would never actually say something like that myself. I am not here attempting to justify that position. I am simply noticing that, if I were a white person, it might tempt me, and I cannot help but think that it is tempting a great many white people. We can wag our fingers at them all we want but they are a part of the racism-monger’s package. If one is going to go down this route, one has got to expect this. How can we make “whiteness” into a site of unrelenting moral indictment without also occasioning it to become the basis of pride, of identity and, ultimately, of self-affirmation?

In a way similar to "Black Pride", "Asian Pride" and "Latino Pride" where associated people share camaraderie, a sense of identity, and an admiration for their history, is there a factual or moral argument for people of European ancestry to have "White Pride" (or perhaps "Anglo/Euro Pride" )? If not, why not?

Note: I am not trying to advocate a position, only bringing up a topic to discuss. I am aware that the term "White Pride" is often associated with negative aspects of far-right types. Is there a way to separate these negative aspects from the term?

White people having or expressing pride in the accomplishments of their ancestors...

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Admin 8 Feb 17
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74 comments

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13

I would like to know what anyone thinks would warrant "pride" about having white skin. Unlike people of other nations and races, white people have never endured any kind of persecution, oppression, discrimination, or marginalization purely due to the color of our skin. We are the only race that hasn't. We have clearly enjoyed privilege in that respect. To ignore or deny that is racist, in itself. It costs us nothing to acknowledge our privilege and to be mindful of it in all situations. It only requires enough compassion to abstain from cruelty and to wish to stop others from being cruel. This doesn't seem all that complicated to me. But then, I live by one commandment, which I adapted to fit myself: Thou shalt make a real effort to not be an asshole.

Deb57 Level 8 Feb 17, 2021

@Thirst2learn Horseshit.

@Thirst2learn bullshit. It's racism to pretend you don't have white privilege that you possess. White privilege is a real thing. Any hardship you have ever endured in your life would have been harder by tenfold if your skin had not been white. And also any hardship you have ever endured in your life wasn't because your skin wasn't white enough. The world is a very different place for people of color. Take a peek outside of that bubble you're in. This is not rocket science.

@Thirst2learn it sounds like you're trying to rationalize your own racism here. I can't tell if you're deliberately misunderstanding what privilege is or if you just don't like the idea of bothering to acknowledge it. If you're white, you have white privilege. It's there whether you have the balls to own it or not.

@Thirst2learn You are really going out of your way to miss the point.

@Thirst2learn Let me explain--you will not understand my explanation, of course, but I'll try anyway.

Saying that I have "white privilege" doesn't mean that I think I am superior. It means that I am aware that the color of my skin means that I will be treated differently in certain situations than are people of color. It means that certain people, i.e. some cops, will treat me differently than they treat a black person, and the difference will be positive, not negative. It is those cops' perception that some white people--not all--are more law abiding or have more positive aspects than do blacks.

And I will go farther than that: as white, middle class, well dressed senior citizen, I also have social privileges that have nothing to do with me personally. I can be treated differently because I project a certain image. I am not eyed suspiciously when I go into stores for various reasons.

For example, the local Walmart used to employ officers to police their stores. I would tease the cops on a consistent basis, asking them why they were standing around, didn't they have work to do, and ask if they shouldn't be hanging around doughnut shops instead of Walmart? Because I was white, a woman, well spoken, and well dressed, they thought it was hilarious.

It's not about superiority, it is about perception and understanding that I am treated differently because of my skin color and other issues.

I used to show my military ID if I got pulled over for speeding. Sometimes cops would let me off with a warning instead of giving me a ticket. That's basically what white privilege is, belonging to a group that gets treated better by other members of that group.

@Thirst2learn ah I see our racist qtard is back

That commandment says it all and is all we can ask of ourselves.

"white people have never endured any kind of persecution, oppression, discrimination, or marginalization purely due to the color of our skin"
Which planet were you born on?

@FrayedBear feel free to prove me wrong.

@Deb57 are you a barrister? If so you can pro bono one of the many cases pending by me.

@FrayedBear are you claiming you're being sued or prosecuted for being white?

@Deb57 more likely for being male, white & alien.

@FrayedBear male and white is the very top of the food chain. Surely you might understand my skepticism in being told that you're being picked on for that.

@Deb57 I no longer give a razoo for your scepticism madam.

Give an example of "White Privilege". You Can't. You wiil try to by giving an example of prejudicial behavior, but never an example of a white only inherent advantage.

@Alienbeing, trying to explain white privilege to a racist is an exercise in futility. I'm not going to bother. You don't want to see it, therefore you will never see it. You may as well be a theist with a mind that narrow. You have expressed numerous assumptions about me, none of which were accurate. You have been insulting and condescending, which was quite unsurprising. I have wasted enough of my time on you, therefore I invite you to have the last word, which you predictably have a burning need to do. Please do not expect any further response from me. I have moved on to more interesting things.

@Deb57 PLEASE, please cite one thing I ever said that was racist. You can't, so go ahead and retreat into your safe place.

By the way you never did cite any specific White Privilege. We know why.... you can't.

11

There are nuances here. I, for example, have a great deal of pride that my Polish and Slovakian ancestors made it to America during a time of world war, pogroms, and another pandemic, mining coal that helped build the national infrastructure and support the American steel industry, railroad industry, and 2 word war efforts. I am proud of the role patriots like Kosciusko and Casimir Pulaski played in the revolutionary war, the engagement of the Polish underground against the nazis, including the Warsaw uprising, the repudiation of soviet control, and the ability to maintain a national identity for the 200 some years Poland did not exist as a separate country. We did not have many people of color in Poland or Slovakia. The closest thing to slavery was the decrepit feudal system, and poles were the "slaves".

However, I think that adherents of white supremacy based on tenets of innate genetic superiority, including the implicit inferiority of other races, nationalities or religions, are all absurdly wrong.

You can have pride in your heritage without being an unreconstructed bigoted asshole. Maybe that's not the space in which this discussion is occurring, but it's a valid point. Of the 6 million people slaughtered by the nazis in the holocaust, 2 million were polish. That's whythere were so many concentration camps in Poland. We survived. Hell yeah, I'm proud. The yahoos now carrying rebel flags and terrorizing Asians, Latinos, jews and blacks can all blow me. They are our nazis. I am as white as they are, and we are NOTHING alike, there IS NO equivalence.

zeuser Level 8 Feb 17, 2021

11 million died in the Holocaust.

@Krish55 Er, try over 15 MILLION as per the records of the International Red Cross that were recorded in Late 1945 through to 1946-7.
There has been numerous ESTIMATES that WWII cost well over 20 -30 MILLION lives in total.

@Krish55 I don't know where you get your stats from? They seem grossly exaggerated -

[worldpopulationreview.com]

@FrayedBear State your specific claim yourself before you give the supporting link.

@Krish55 you can read the link yourself.

@FrayedBear Why bother when you can't even bother to state the point you want to draw from it?

@Krish55 your statement of 11million is incorrect.

9

Yes it will provoke a "white pride" backlash among white racists, and among white people who are uncomfortable in admitting that much institutional racism remains. But, large numbers of us have been willing to face reality for a long time.

wordywalt Level 8 Feb 17, 2021
8

I feel no need to be proud over the accomplishments of my ancestors because of the color of their skin. While some were oppressed due to social class, they didn't have to fight for their rights the way that people of color did.

And speaking for women who were downtrodden, abused, and ruled by white men, why should I be proud of white MEN? Women also had to fight for their rights in patriarchal societies. I will be accused of man hating for that, but it is the truth.

We are fortunate to live at a time when women can do anything - my mom was an electrian at a steel mill for 25 years, worked on our farm at night, while raising 3 kids. I'm proud of her... but not due to her skin color. I don't think she should feel any guilt about her skin color either.

@Admin Spot on--neither should she, or anyone, feel guilty about skin color.

I am proud of myself and many of my family members for what we have achieved, but it is a personal pride and has nothing to do with skin color. The harder it was for them, the prouder I am.

8

I do not feel guilt over something that I did not do. I don't know with any certainty that my ancestors owned slaves and if they did I don't feel anything particular one way or the other. I absolutely agree that they did something that was morally wrong but their dead now.

Every human being living in an industrialized nation benefited from the pain, suffering, slavery, and deaths of those who came before. It seems civilizations are built on such things.

I also don't feel any particular pride over the accomplishments of my ancestors or "white people" that came before me. Those were their accomplishments, not mine. If someone did something commendable or made some revolutionary discovery or invention then that's great and they should be applauded and commemorated equally regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc.

Well stated

8

"Pride" and "heritage" are two words I don't have much use for.
I see them as buzzwords that often get used to justify bad behavior.

I'm not going to play along.
I'll call out racism and xenophobia when I see them.

KKGator Level 9 Feb 17, 2021

I agree that "Pride" has lots of definitions and could be use positively or negatively. It just seems dangerous to have one group focus on "shame" while other groups focus on "pride".

@Admin Well, in many cases, "shame" is wholly appropriate, and attempting to supplant it with "pride" is most often a knee-jerk reaction associated with not wanting to accept the facts of history and current behavior.

7

My ancestors, on both sides of my family, were poor Polish peasants who immigrated to the US in the 20th Century. Being Slavic, one can presume my ancient heritage was more in the slave ("Slavic" means slave) category than in the overlord category. Being descendant of Polish nationality specifically, my ethnic history reflects more recent domination by German, Russian, and Austrian foreign powers.

I don't feel any white guilt. I do acknowledge that my grandparents, parents, and I have had an easier route to success in America than the average black person, because of racism that persists to this day.

Personally, I identify with Polish and American heritage rather than "white" or European heritage. Hell, one of my relatives fought in the Polish army when the Nazis invaded, fought in the Polish Underground while the country was occupied, and survived to eventually immigrate to America, marry, and start a family. Many other relatives fought in the US armed forces in WWII. ... As did many black Americans.

Why burn bridges with your fellow countrymen and women? Heal the racial divides. United we're stronger.

nicestuff Level 7 Feb 17, 2021

My ancestors who first came to America undoubtedly had it rough, since back then they were discriminated too for jobs- the old signs used to say back then "No Irish Need Apply", but at least they had rights that blacks and Native Americans did not have in the society. By the time the first members of my family came to Iowa after the Civil War, they were able to get land and be farmers, because they were white, so they had it easier than the ones who first arrived in America in New York. So they had reason to be proud of overcoming their limited obstacles, but they also, as an ethnic group, benefitted from the dominant white society deciding after their group had been in America a while to include them fully into white society, and they reciprocated by adopting the racism of seeing blacks and other minority groups as inferior to them and carrying out the dominant prejudices, esp. against blacks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't certain groups of what we now refer to as "white" in previous times, not really regarded as such? I think the tent has expanded over the years to be more accepting of people who weren't liked and were previously only tolerated.

6

"White people having or expressing pride in the accomplishments of their ancestors..." are silly and pathetic. Same for Black people expressing pride in the accomplishments of their ancestors. Same for any other ethnic group doing so.

Pride is appropriate for ONE'S OWN accomplishments or, to some extent, the accomplishments of one's children, because you "raised 'em right" or whatever. Neither pride nor shame should extend beyond what one is actually responsible for.

6

As an individualist, I'm repulsed by collective guilt/pride.

5

Being prideful about something you had no control over [like what "race" you are (which isn't even a real thing) or what people of your "race" did in the past] is about the dumbest thing you can do. That's like bragging about your eyes being blue, or more aptly, the color of your great-great-grandfather's eyes. Maybe people should accomplish something themselves?

JeffMurray Level 7 Feb 18, 2021

yup. Potentially "inspired" makes more sense than "proud." We can easily apply the same observation to "patriotism." Why don't we look for inspiration and learning from consequences of history, rather than treating national or racial identity like a fucking zero-sum contest for bragging rights?

@MikeInBatonRouge Even then, why should inspiration only come from, or mean more if, it comes from someone of your same [nationality/"race"/gender/age group/sexual orientation/etc.]?

5

Look lets make a compromise:

white pride is only ok IF it is about something or someone that didnt involve destroying something or hurting someone AND ONLY INVOLVED WHITE PEOPLE. I woukd go further and say only be prideful of people from your own home country and or state. If you have German and French ancestry: pick one. Otherwise your not playing the pride game correctly and you'll seem more stupid that you already are okay?

For example: you can't have pride in landing on the moon, because we all know there were people of color and other nationalities working in NASA, and that some of the science involved were based on works of non-white non-American people. Einstein for example. Dont you dare say he was American!

So when people say they take pride in being an American (which they also mean white) for being the first to land on the moon...I really can't agree. Instead i try to focus on individuals rather than race. Let's get to where the merit really lies, eh. It sure aint race.

What about someone? Well you can't take pride in James Clark Maxwell: the man is a bloody Scot not of pure Anglo Saxon blood.

No german pride either, German whites: sorry your ancestors participated in genocide. You're out permenently. Nothing you race ever accomplished or will accomplish will rise above that. The German race will always be tainted. The bittersweet irony is that the best German you will ever produce happens to be Jewish. Sorry I don't blame Hitler for the Holocaust. I blame ze German race. No pride for you. Ever.

American white/Southern pride?: HaHaHa: never. Slavery. Genocide of the natives. Warmongering. Dropping nukes on children 70 odd years ago. Drone attacks on children today. How can you still have pride? I dont. I CANT!

So what can you take pride in as white?: Isaac Netwon. He self-admitted that his accomplishments only were possible because he "stood on the shoulders of giants" and his work was truly a boon to humanity, and he did it all on his own. The only white guy you should be proud of. But he may not have been of pure Anglo-Saxon blood, and also the brits did horrible things...ok yeah brits no pride for you.

Whose left? The French? Gtfo. We know what your race has done!

Italians? Youre uh...not white. Sorry. Ya kinda swarthy.

Spain? Really? Are we forgetting South America? You're out!

Scandinavian? You mean those guys who looted and plundered as vikings and the later invented dynamite!? Fuck off. No pride for you.

Whose left Russia and handful of eastern european countries? Hold any pogroms in the last 2000 years? You did? No pride for you?.

Oh yeah Australia: NO. What you did to the Aborigines. And to refugees today.

Indian, the true Aryan race? Fuck off! Caste system automatically disqualifies you. No pride for you.

Japan, the only people who are literally more white tgan white people. Do I need to remind you of starting a world war and what you did to the Koreans?

Chinese? Yeah....no pride for you. White or not. You know what you did.

You know what this isnt working out

How about this: maybe racial or national pride is fucking impossible to have without blessing the bad with the good. So let's not have it.

MakeItGood Level 7 Feb 18, 2021
5

Referencing black conservatives only magnifies your racism.

[dailycaller.com]

LovinLarge Level 7 Feb 18, 2021
5

The question assumes that "white guilt" is indeed being taught. It thus makes an assumption that has not been demonstrated to be accurate. Teaching how slavery and imperialism created White Privilege is not teaching "white guilt." The fact that some may feel resentfully guilty when confronted with their privilege indicates a desire to continue such privilege at the expense of others.

Krish55 Level 7 Feb 17, 2021
5

They will justify anything to keep power

bobwjr Level 9 Feb 17, 2021
5

I agree with the sentiment expressed in the original post. In our society right now it seems there is a pressure to align yourself with one side or the other on this topic. On the university campus or in Hollywood acknowledging your white privilege is a daily routine. Reading the UNC student newspaper, I see white racial guilt sprinkled into articles so much That it begins to lose affect as persuasion and becomes dogma.

On the other side of the coin this gives ammunition to racists. they can point to the excessive and silly examples among the “libtards” as a justification for their own righteousness. So I agree with the premise above.

In my state the current fuss involves new social studies standards for K 12 students placing a greater emphasis on racism discrimination social movements and competing historical narratives.

It’s probably good to expand what kids are taught in school. And it is probably true that most of the history books I learned on growing up glazed over how tough the racial struggle in this country has been for Black people.

When I assess the character of a man, (or a woman or a non-binary individual)... I like to assess them based on their peers and their time in history. Right now there’s So many people claiming to be social justice warriors that it’s hard to give any one of them that much credit. The people who stand out from the crowd right now are those willing to reach across and speak directly and with care to those they disagree with.

MorganR Level 4 Feb 17, 2021

Hmm. I disagree with racists and supremacists, and I am strongly disinclined to speak directly and with care to them. as I have in the past always had my values of care and compassion for "the common person" scorned by such individuals. I now consign them to the dustbin of wasters and oxygen thieves.

The funny thing about racism is it is a spectrum. Sometimes I wonder if anybody is completely free of it

@MorganR - I agree with youf idea of racism being on a spectrum. I wonder if it is as important to be completely free of racism as to be willing to confront and deal with it when we find ourselves being guilty of it.

With all people, we are likely to have all sorts of preconceptions and prejudices. How are these biases different except when they are based on race, gender, or some other identifiable minority?

My thought is that prejudices develop naturally enough. They can be taught as well as develop from experience. The most effectively instilled bias is probably a combination of teaching and experience with an good dose of confirmation bias.

5

Could be any one or more of these reasons. Really depends on the person and context.

Social Teacher says: here are two lines, how can you make line “A” shorter than line “B” ?
A—————
B—————
Most students guess various ways to cut or fold line “A”. Teacher kept shaking his head looking for a different answer. Finally one student says “make line “B” longer! Correct says the teacher.

Racism is like the lines. It is ok to lengthen yours, but never ok to shorten the others....

Canndue Level 7 Feb 17, 2021
5

To me, minority pride comes from achievements gained despite obstacles placed upon them by the majority.

Black pride comes from achievements gained despite slavery, jim crow, and racism from a non-black majority, i.e. whites.
Gay pride comes from achievements gained despite sexism, prejudice, and disenfranchisement from a non-gays majority, i.e., cis-genders.
Woman pride comes from achievements gained despite misogyny, diminution, and disenfranchisement from a non-woman majority, i.e. males.
Immigrant pride comes from achievements gained despite prejudice and disenfranchisement from non-immigrants, i.e., citizens.

What then does white pride mean in this context?
They have no majority that has placed obstacles in their way.
There has never been a time when they have experienced wholesale prejudice or disenfranchisement.
They have never been slaves, they have always had the right to vote, to make laws, to own property.

And thus while a white INDIVIDUAL has much to be prideful for, has many obstacles placed in their way that they overcome daily, they do not have a majority placing the obstacle of prejudice, disenfranchisement, or slavery in their way... their being white is not a source of pride the way being gay, woman, etc is a source of pride because there is no historical disenfranchisement or prejudice against a majority (white) person the way there is towards a minority (black, gay, immigrant, etc) person.

So my answer to the above question is NO, there is no factual or moral argument for people of European ancestry, the majority, to have "White Pride" in the same way that Blacks, Immigrants, Gays, etc, the minority, have "Minority Pride"

What about Irish people?

Are you saying that the only way to have justifiable pride for ones ancestors is for them to have overcome obstacles imposed by another racial or ethnic group? What about overcoming obstacles on individual liberty, ignorance of science, rule of law, monarchy to democracy, etc? Does white people overcoming being slaves to Arabs something to have pride about? Is "Asian Pride" less valid than "Black Pride"? Just ideas...

@TheInterlooper Considering that Oliver Cromwell's solution to the 'Irish Problem' was to pack them into churches and burn them alive! Of course, I could list many many more examples of appalling and atrocious behaviour towards the Irish. It was not uncommon in London in early 1970's to see a notice in the window of a house on which it was printed: "Room to let: No Blacks, no Irish and no dogs"

@Admin

Good question.

Keeping in mind that race is an invention...

What I think TheMiddleWay is saying is that pride is relative and when you have a pride connected with the instead of just the individual it is a reaction to oppression. If black pride existed without white oppression, would it be the same? Or would it be racist?

Many whites do feel oppressed or marginalized. But this requires them to think in racial terms, increasing the likelihood that they are racists.

If a white man doesn't get a job vs a black man...

black people's reaction is surprise because we expect the white person to get the job with all things being equal.

if the white person's reaction is surprise then it is likely they expected to get the job because they see themselves as superior.

It may be possible to have pride without being racist, but the the chances of a white person thinking in such terms without being racist is slim.

@Admin

Are you saying that the only way to have justifiable pride for ones ancestors is for them to have overcome obstacles imposed by another racial or ethnic group?

In the context given above, that "gay pride" or "woman pride" are about accomplishments against a backdrop of oppression, yes.

France and England have much to be proud for in "producing" Pascal and Newton.
But was their whiteness an extra obstacle they had to overcome?
No.
Hence, to speak of "White pride" in their case doesn't make sense.
Further, when they speak of "French Pride" or "English Pride" in refering to them, it is in the context that France or England are superior to other countries for having produced them, a sentiment that is shared when people commonly use "White Pride"

OTOH, Turing (gay) and Noether (woman) accomplished much for science while simultaneously dealing with obstacles because of their sexual preference and sex... in the former case this meant chemical castration and eventual suicide; in the latter case this meant working at a university without pay for seven years and strong opposition to her having an academic position.
In this case, "Gay Pride" and "Woman Pride" for their accomplishments makes sense.

Compound to this the history of what "white pride" has historically celebrated: the superiority of whites over non-whites. So when minorities says "pride", they celebrate persistence, endurance, doing twice as much as the majority to accomplish just as much. But when the (white) majority says "pride", it's a celebration of their dominance, superiority, and authority over others.
This showcases how the majority and the minority have very different thinks that they are proud for.

What about overcoming obstacles on individual liberty, ignorance of science, rule of law, monarchy to democracy, etc?

All valid.
Yet none are relate to a minority vs. majority struggle, as the modern "prides" are based upon.

Does white people overcoming being slaves to Arabs something to have pride about? I

Absolutely.
There whites are the minority and Arabs the majority and when a person in the Middle East says "white pride", they are NOT boosting that they are superior to Arabs or reveling in their authority but celebrating the same things all minorities should be proud of: excellence against a backdrop of people that are actively against said excellence.

@TheInterlooper
"Irish Pride" is a celebration of their accomplishments despite being immigrants which made them a minority and a victim of prejudice and discrimination from the white non-Irish (read: of British decent) majority.
It is not a celebration of their superiority or authority over others as is commonly understood or used when one says "White Pride"

@TheMiddleWay A poor attempt at the Socratic method on my part. My question was referring to this bit...

What then does white pride mean in this context?
They have no majority that has placed obstacles in their way.
There has never been a time when they have experienced wholesale prejudice or disenfranchisement.
They have never been slaves, they have always had the right to vote, to make laws, to own property.

Aren't you omitting the Irish in this narrative?

@TheMiddleWay Reading up, from oldest post to newer posts, yours makes the most sense so far with one exception: the obstacles white people overcame were put in place by other, more dominant, white people.

In monarches such as 1770s England, these more dominant whites were the English against whom the colonists in America rebelled. In today’s America these more dominant whites are the wealthy, against whom less wealthy whites are still struggling.

They in turn may still be placing obstacles upon blacks and other non-whites, gays, women, and immigrants.

Some of my ancestors were serfs on lands that became Germany. Their offspring overcame some obstacles. I overcame my my parents’ religion so I have some atheist pride.

@TheInterlooper
Check out my previous response to you.... "Irish Pride" is in context with "Gay Pride" et. al. when they are using it in reference to them as excelling despite the hardships of being an immigrant minority, not the white majority.

I would add however, that it also carries nationalistic connotation, insofar as Ireland is the Best Land, national superiority. So in this case, it can mean many things.

@yvilletom

the obstacles white people overcame were put in place by other, more dominant, white people.

That is a fair assessment, as the white Irish minority that were brought up previously were put under hardships that the dominant white British majority did not experience.

However, it bears noting that the hardships they experienced did not rise to the level of slavery as blacks or exclusion from political power as women... white Irish males could still vote, could still own land, could still marry the female partner that they loved... could still do things that blacks and white women and gays of British decent could not do.

5

I don't really have a vote on this. I just know that many, but not all, white people get defensive and lash out when they feel their white identity and white privilege are confronted and threatened with it being taken away from them, at least as they see it. This results in backlash and they act it out by voting for Repubs and other reactionary pols. They also act it out by bashing and seeking power and control over racial and ethnic minorities. I like to think I am fairly non-racist and teachings about white guilt and white privilege don't threaten me personally, so I don't react negatively to it. I take it in, weigh it against my experience, logic, and use my intellect to apply it to how I live and treat others. Because I would like to live in a pluralistic, peaceful society if possible, and because I know that non-whites are not my real enemy is this country. As a socialist, I know my real enemy is the ruling class. Most whites have not figured that out yet, sadly, and neither have a lot of minority race Americans.

4

Don't waste our time on your ancestors....look at your present life situation.

nicknotes Level 8 Mar 11, 2021
4

Another Blame the Victim post that inaccurately blames the victims of racism for white racism. A little chronology quickly clears this up:

  1. Black Pride only started in the 1960's with Civil Rights.
  2. And there has never been any Brown Pride and Yellow Pride.
  3. In contrast, White Pride began in the 1600s to justify colonialism and slavery. It manifested itself as the idea of White Superiority. Shakespeare's Othello is one contemporary example of this phenomenon captured in the literature of the period.
  4. With the more intensive imperialism of the 1800s, White Pride became a more extensive ideology, using pseudoscience for support.
  5. In the US, White Pride surged after the Civil War (1865 onwards) with the Klan's effort to reassert control over Blacks.
  6. Similarly, any current movement by people of color for justice (e.g., freedom from police brutality) is met with a reactionary white racism similar to the earlier Klan movements.
  7. Given the above chronology, it is manipulatively dishonest and an abdication of responsibility to pose a question framed thusly inaccurate.

Conservatives love to ignore history because it contradicts their illusions. This question is just another specious conservative effort to shift their sins unto their victims.
"Progressives, Socialists, and Black Lives Matter"

Krish55 Level 7 Feb 23, 2021

You post is really not on topic.

While I have often said "if I were a black man I woud be continuously outraged" I also state I have no guilt complex. I nor anyone in my family ever owned a slave, and I personally am not racist.

As such I have no reason to feel guilty.

4

This post was guaranteed from the start to result in some sharp accusations and retorts to those and to people taking offense all around..
So...here's another. As a person who happens to be White and to benefit from White privilege, while also caring about racial inequity, not to mention gender inequities of various categories, I find the term "White Guilt" not helpful.

Oh, I certainly see cause for such guilt in individuals, as well as structurally in White-dominated society, but the term itself is absolutely guaranteed to get people talking past each other, failing to agree on what it even applies to.

As an individual, I have no responsibility for what White people in previous generations did. (That, btw, is a part of the reason the term "pride" seems to me misplaced.) Individually, I also did not construct the many societal advantages and disadvantages awarded on the basis of race. I did not have anything to do with the arbitrary racial categories as they have been invented and defined.

However, individually, to the extent I ignore the fact of continuing racial inequity, if I dismiss all social difficulties experienced by Black people as simply a result of their own choices, then I am guilty of complicity in the perpetuation of racism.

If someone assumes to know my motives for something and calls me a racist, I certainly don't enjoy that. I could get angry and defensive and call them "the real racist." Or I could remind myself that no one grows up in a racially charged society with the history ours has without having our racial views shaped in some way.

I could remind myself that, although everyone has prejudices, racism is more than that. It is first a societally created problem that structurally creates inequality, so that my prejudices, if I am in the privileged demographic, carry more power to hurt, to do damage, than do the prejudices of someone who lacks that societal privilege.

I could ask my accuser what they mean when they accuse me of racism. What have they seen or heard from me to lead them to think that? I can seek clarity, better communication, and for continued deepening, corrections, enhancement, of my own comprehension of the issues.

I sure as (metaphorical) hell can and should feel angry and concerned on behalf of my friends, neighbors, countrymen, who by virtue of being part of a racial minority face additional obstacles, insults, denigration, violence and other oppression.

Great analysis and commentary, Mike!

4

Accomplishments meaning What? People can be proud of being foul, murderous,hateful sociopaths as well. We all share in our hummanity, and too many have been ignored and silenced in order to keep the white male above the fray.

Kojaksmom Level 8 Feb 19, 2021
4

Why White Pride? There is no Brown Pride! And no Yellow Pride! Africans never thought of themselves as a Black race before colonialism. The concept of a separate black race was an invention of the white Europeans. Black identity was created by white people in the process of subjugation and enslavement. The ideology of racism was developed to justify the subjugation. A White identity did not exist before colonialism. It developed to justify who was allowed to dominate. So black pride is obviously a reaction to such subjugation and its accompanying denigration. Black pride is thus an ethnic pride similar to Irish pride, Polish pride, etc. So American pride isn't good enough for you? Remember, the concept of Whiteness was created in the process of dominating others.Thus the need for a vague, generalized White racial pride shows the need to continue subjecting others.

Krish55 Level 7 Feb 18, 2021

Perhaps there should be an appropriate element of pride for those who have the clear disadvantage of a skin color that makes everything about their lives more challenging than if it was white. If every hurdle you had to overcome was higher than the guy you're competing with for the prize, then being proud of your achievements should carry a little more weight. Perhaps there should be some pride expected in simply surviving that for generations.

4

I see people of any colour, not just "white people", expressing pride in the accomplishments of their ancestor as flaunting their own defects (yes, defects plural) of personality, and I regard such expressions of pride as being absurd.

anglophone Level 8 Feb 17, 2021
4

I'm virtually always in awe of excellence, but . . .

I'm fairly contemptible of culture -- not just American -- but all culture. IMO, that kind of 'pride' is used primarily for "us-them"ing. 😛

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