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Does teaching "white guilt" also cultivate a "white pride" backlash?

Glenn Loury, a black author and professor of Economics at Brown University, recently wrote an article entitled "Unspeakable Truths about Racial Inequality in America". In it, he lists ways that "cancel culture" is enforcing a world-view that is often not fully backed up with facts and evidence. He posits further that the vilification of white people and their ancestors could result in an argumentatively justifiable "white pride" backlash. Specifically, he writes:


I wonder if the “white-guilt” and “white-apologia” and “white-privilege” view of the world cannot exist except also to give birth to a “white-pride” backlash, even if the latter is seldom expressed overtly—it being politically incorrect to do so.

Confronted by someone who is constantly bludgeoning me about the evils of colonialism, urging me to tear down the statues of “dead white men,” insisting that I apologize for what my white forebears did to the “peoples of color” in years past, demanding that I settle my historical indebtedness via reparations, and so forth—I well might begin to ask myself, were I one of these “white oppressors,” on exactly what foundations does human civilization in the 21st century stand? I might begin to enumerate the great works of philosophy, mathematics, and science that ushered in the “Age of Enlightenment,” that allowed modern medicine to exist, that gave rise to the core of human knowledge about the origins of the species or of the universe. I might begin to tick-off the great artistic achievements of European culture, the architectural innovations, the paintings, the symphonies, etc. And then, were I in a particularly agitated mood, I might even ask these “people of color,” who think that they can simply bully me into a state of guilt-ridden self-loathing, where is “their” civilization?

Now, everything I just said exemplifies “racist” and “white supremacist” rhetoric. I wish to stipulate that I would never actually say something like that myself. I am not here attempting to justify that position. I am simply noticing that, if I were a white person, it might tempt me, and I cannot help but think that it is tempting a great many white people. We can wag our fingers at them all we want but they are a part of the racism-monger’s package. If one is going to go down this route, one has got to expect this. How can we make “whiteness” into a site of unrelenting moral indictment without also occasioning it to become the basis of pride, of identity and, ultimately, of self-affirmation?

In a way similar to "Black Pride", "Asian Pride" and "Latino Pride" where associated people share camaraderie, a sense of identity, and an admiration for their history, is there a factual or moral argument for people of European ancestry to have "White Pride" (or perhaps "Anglo/Euro Pride" )? If not, why not?

Note: I am not trying to advocate a position, only bringing up a topic to discuss. I am aware that the term "White Pride" is often associated with negative aspects of far-right types. Is there a way to separate these negative aspects from the term?

White people having or expressing pride in the accomplishments of their ancestors...

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109 comments (26 - 50)

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4

This issue of Critical Race Theory seems to have only surfaced in the news since the 2020 election results. IMO I think that Republicans are publicizing CRT to inflame white voters to believe that Democrats are favoring black voters over white voters and thus the poor whites will vote Republican to get their fair share of the pie.

nicknotes Level 8 July 26, 2021

I agree with you. And I have to tell you I am a teacher and in my state of NH there is a law now (thank you Gov Sununu) that prohibits the teaching of CRT. Unfortunately some of our back-to-school prep time had to be spent of discussing that stupid law.

@MyTVC15 I'm not sure that avoiding CRT is the answer....after all it is part of our history....

nicknotes, I cannot see how you can avoid teaching it, if a teacher is committed to teaching the truth, that is.

I can't speak to the US but this is hitting people world wide, in NZ where I live children are being made to stand up and apologize in class for being white and state they are oppressors - WTF!! how can a child be guilty of anything done by their great great grandparents. It's like blaming German youth born from 2000 onwards for the Holocaust... Patently ridiculous.

@Fallout I understand....my ancestors were back in Italy riding with Garibaldi when the USA had slavery.

4

I respect and feel proud of the positive accomplishments and choices of my ancestors. At the same time, I denounce the hurtful choices they made. For exception I refuse to condone all of my great-grandfathers choice to support slavery and and the Confederacy.

wordywalt Level 9 June 21, 2021
4

I feel disgusted that human beings treat each other horribly in the past and present. I do not subscribe to ancestry guilt. All "peoples" have treated others with cruelty. Black people in Africa murdered, enslaved and committed genocide on other tribes and so did Native Americans. All cultures have committed atrocities against others. We have a bloody history.

My biggest concern is so many still haven't learned from it and continue the legacy.

Leelu Level 7 May 13, 2021
4

Another Blame the Victim post that inaccurately blames the victims of racism for white racism. A little chronology quickly clears this up:

  1. Black Pride only started in the 1960's with Civil Rights.
  2. And there has never been any Brown Pride and Yellow Pride.
  3. In contrast, White Pride began in the 1600s to justify colonialism and slavery. It manifested itself as the idea of White Superiority. Shakespeare's Othello is one contemporary example of this phenomenon captured in the literature of the period.
  4. With the more intensive imperialism of the 1800s, White Pride became a more extensive ideology, using pseudoscience for support.
  5. In the US, White Pride surged after the Civil War (1865 onwards) with the Klan's effort to reassert control over Blacks.
  6. Similarly, any current movement by people of color for justice (e.g., freedom from police brutality) is met with a reactionary white racism similar to the earlier Klan movements.
  7. Given the above chronology, it is manipulatively dishonest and an abdication of responsibility to pose a question framed thusly inaccurate.

Conservatives love to ignore history because it contradicts their illusions. This question is just another specious conservative effort to shift their sins unto their victims.
"Progressives, Socialists, and Black Lives Matter"

Krish55 Level 8 Feb 23, 2021

You post is really not on topic.

While I have often said "if I were a black man I woud be continuously outraged" I also state I have no guilt complex. I nor anyone in my family ever owned a slave, and I personally am not racist.

As such I have no reason to feel guilty.

Have you ever read anything by Chinua Achebe?

4

This post was guaranteed from the start to result in some sharp accusations and retorts to those and to people taking offense all around..
So...here's another. As a person who happens to be White and to benefit from White privilege, while also caring about racial inequity, not to mention gender inequities of various categories, I find the term "White Guilt" not helpful.

Oh, I certainly see cause for such guilt in individuals, as well as structurally in White-dominated society, but the term itself is absolutely guaranteed to get people talking past each other, failing to agree on what it even applies to.

As an individual, I have no responsibility for what White people in previous generations did. (That, btw, is a part of the reason the term "pride" seems to me misplaced.) Individually, I also did not construct the many societal advantages and disadvantages awarded on the basis of race. I did not have anything to do with the arbitrary racial categories as they have been invented and defined.

However, individually, to the extent I ignore the fact of continuing racial inequity, if I dismiss all social difficulties experienced by Black people as simply a result of their own choices, then I am guilty of complicity in the perpetuation of racism.

If someone assumes to know my motives for something and calls me a racist, I certainly don't enjoy that. I could get angry and defensive and call them "the real racist." Or I could remind myself that no one grows up in a racially charged society with the history ours has without having our racial views shaped in some way.

I could remind myself that, although everyone has prejudices, racism is more than that. It is first a societally created problem that structurally creates inequality, so that my prejudices, if I am in the privileged demographic, carry more power to hurt, to do damage, than do the prejudices of someone who lacks that societal privilege.

I could ask my accuser what they mean when they accuse me of racism. What have they seen or heard from me to lead them to think that? I can seek clarity, better communication, and for continued deepening, corrections, enhancement, of my own comprehension of the issues.

I sure as (metaphorical) hell can and should feel angry and concerned on behalf of my friends, neighbors, countrymen, who by virtue of being part of a racial minority face additional obstacles, insults, denigration, violence and other oppression.

Great analysis and commentary, Mike!

4

Accomplishments meaning What? People can be proud of being foul, murderous,hateful sociopaths as well. We all share in our hummanity, and too many have been ignored and silenced in order to keep the white male above the fray.

Kojaksmom Level 8 Feb 19, 2021
4

Why White Pride? There is no Brown Pride! And no Yellow Pride! Africans never thought of themselves as a Black race before colonialism. The concept of a separate black race was an invention of the white Europeans. Black identity was created by white people in the process of subjugation and enslavement. The ideology of racism was developed to justify the subjugation. A White identity did not exist before colonialism. It developed to justify who was allowed to dominate. So black pride is obviously a reaction to such subjugation and its accompanying denigration. Black pride is thus an ethnic pride similar to Irish pride, Polish pride, etc. So American pride isn't good enough for you? Remember, the concept of Whiteness was created in the process of dominating others.Thus the need for a vague, generalized White racial pride shows the need to continue subjecting others.

Krish55 Level 8 Feb 18, 2021

Perhaps there should be an appropriate element of pride for those who have the clear disadvantage of a skin color that makes everything about their lives more challenging than if it was white. If every hurdle you had to overcome was higher than the guy you're competing with for the prize, then being proud of your achievements should carry a little more weight. Perhaps there should be some pride expected in simply surviving that for generations.

4

Its not about feeling prideful in accomplishments of your white ancestors. Its about how you demonstrate your pride. Do you do it at the exclusion of recognizing the accomplishments of other groups? Do recognize the context in which those accomplishments were attained? At what price to other groups did it cost?

White pride, white privilege is a hold over and manifestation of Colonial Imperialism. During the Age of European Exploration, the primary countries exploring and and colonizing tended to be extremely xenophobic and extremely chauvinistic and ethnocentric.

There goal with regard to the population was to assimilate the cultures they encountered. And if the could not be assimilated they were to be annualized - genocide. Generally the local populations were exploited and used to exploit the resources that existed within their lands.

White privilege is the last hold out of our European heritage. For the first time in this countries history, minorities are reaching significant numbers that they can wrest power back from the white population.

Its alright to be prideful of your heritage. But know the history and context. Know what the cost was and who paid that price.

t1nick Level 8 Feb 17, 2021

Some interesting points!

This guy got into a lot of heat when he wrote an article "The Case for Colonialism"... the key question he asks is "compared to what?". That's is, if there was a second earth and there wasn't an "Age of European Exploration", how better or worse off would people in India, Africa, and the Americas be today? Should we similarly teach our Muslim kids about how millions of Europeans and black Africans were enslaved by Arabs (castrating men so they don't reproduce)?

@Admin You are correct that Islamic history is sanitised by muslims. And they should be confronted with the barbarity in their history! But that is irrelevant to your question. There is absolutely no doubt that the people of the Global South would be better off had European colonialism not occurred. Only ignorance of the suffering that European colonialism caused has enabled clueless racists to blithely consider otherwise for self-serving purposes.

@Admin

Interesting question. Have you read Jared Diamonds, Guns, Germs, and Steel? Or his other book Collapse?

@t1nick Both worthwhile books, I think.

4

I see people of any colour, not just "white people", expressing pride in the accomplishments of their ancestor as flaunting their own defects (yes, defects plural) of personality, and I regard such expressions of pride as being absurd.

anglophone Level 8 Feb 17, 2021
4

I'm virtually always in awe of excellence, but . . .

I'm fairly contemptible of culture -- not just American -- but all culture. IMO, that kind of 'pride' is used primarily for "us-them"ing. 😛

4

Personally, I’m not a fan of pride in general - especially things we have no control over

Rudy1962 Level 9 Feb 17, 2021
3

My initial thought is it's as normal as anyone having pride in ancestral accomplishments, no matter the race or color. That's the key, the motive behind it. If it's to keep score and compare to other races then I don't think that's healthy, practical or wise. It's more divisive and along the lines of the other check boxes.

3

Expressing pride in WHITE accomplishments? White guilt is idiotic, no one chose to be white. White privilege is real but nothing to be ashamed of. Fact is that white people took this country by force, killed the people who were here, stole people from other countries and killed many of them, treat people who are not white like shit and then wonder why they complain and god forbid protest how poorly they are treated. That's quite an accomplishment, should white people be proud of that?
I am proud of human accomplishments that benefit not only humanity but all living things. I am white and don't see that any white people have done anything that anyone of any other color could not have accomplished if only they had the opportunity. White people are very good at saying "Look at all the great things we did" while forgetting all the atrocities committed in the process.

ThomasLevi Level 6 July 21, 2021
3

Pride, as we all know, is one of those seven deadly sins (not that I believe in sin as a construct), and it does often seem to, as the proverb says, precede a fall.

That said, it seems to me that taking pride in something like skin color, or any other genetic trait in which we had no say in the matter, is simply misguided. The positive accomplishments of any individual or group of individuals should, IMHO, be celebrated by all. Human achievement uplifts humanity, not simply a subset thereof.

3

I take no pride or shame in the deeds or ideas of people that happen to look like me.

Hicks66 Level 7 May 25, 2021
3

This entire post ASSUMES you can teach anything to these idiots......

AnneWimsey Level 9 Mar 18, 2021
3

Pride in what one has accomplished, not about something one had no control over. We have been fed the white lie as that is what the victor teaches. History is white biased. Other histories have not been taught. So the myth of white supremacy is threatened by balanced history. Just because the history isn't taught does not mean it did not happen. [en.wikipedia.org].

Mooolah Level 8 Feb 18, 2021
3

The author needs to point out that for one, only a small minority of the white population was involved in any way with slavery, and secondly, their own people were invested in a culture of enslaving one another back in Africa and simply found a market with the white slavers who removed captured enemies from the land forever. In other words, their own ancestors were complicit in their enslavement. All that said, until black people acknowledge this fact, understand that there were free black men who were also slave holders in America. They need to understand that this blame game, is blaming many innocent white families, families who may have been involved with ending slavery via fighting in the Civil War, or taking risks moving escaped slaves via the Underground Rail Road. Keep pointing at anyone, and everyone, who happens to have white skin, and I can see where the Authors point could become a fact. Blaming innocent people for something they themselves had no part in, and in fact their ancestors may not have had a part in, is racist. We cannot move forward until the blame game stops and everyone takes a look at the situation, and decide to work together to help raise up our brothers and sisters of African descent. And those brothers and sisters must be willing to do the work. Some are, and are very successful, while other choose to wallow in their situations, because it is easier to blame the white people than it is to do what they need to do to better their situations.

misstuffy Level 7 Feb 18, 2021

What they also ignore is the fact that thousands of white European's were sold into slavery, as well... Men, woman and children. Where is the outrage there? We could also discuss the Irish and Gypsy's enslavement.

Why am I sure that you don't know that rant for the racist trash that it is? Why do I get the idea that you have no idea about the history of racism in this country; how it was developed and grew as a major force in creating the social dynamics that we live in today? Why is it you sound so astoundingly ignorant about a group of people you apparently find no fault in grouping into an negative stereotype responsible for their own oppression?

Oh yeah. You were taught "history" from a white perspective, where white people are to blame for nothing negative but responsible for everything positive in the world. Almost Trumpian in nature.

3

who is teaching "white guilt"? are we not to teach history, then, in case anyone feels guilty?

g

genessa Level 8 Feb 18, 2021
3

Something else. "Pride" is a peculiar word. Respect, appreciation, admiration, sure. But...

"White people....are..."insecure and sadly tribal."

I have never been insecure.

@Alienbeing Great. I don't believe you, of course, but great.

Pride does not exist in a vacuum.
It requires something with which to contrast, a marginalization to remedy, a challenge to conquer, or a deficit to overcome. Pride of one's cherished reference group has no meaning without recognition of a wider category apart from which the cherished reference group is distinguished. Who is proud of being human? It is nonsensical unless and until some sentient life outside of humanity comes and threatens to marginalize humans. Pointless.
In a societal context dominated by White people as the status quo, there is no constructive reason for pride in the accomplishments specifically of White people any more than for pride in humanity in general.

Google Definition of Pride: #3 is relevant.
[google.com]

@MikeInBatonRouge You not believing one can never feel insecure shows you have a troubled mind and it is you that is insecure.

Too bad you feel inadequate.

3

Having pride in your race/ancestors does NOT automatically mean you hate other races! And I’ll go out on a limb: even if you think your race is a little more intelligent than another race, you still don’t have to HATE the other race. It is fact that Ab Lincoln believed black people were not quiet as intelligent as whites - but he fought to free them! If you were an alien visiting earth, you would have to observe that (having the same amount of time to evolve) some races are more advanced than others just by traveling the continents.
>>. People get so caught up in political correctness they ignore common sense

So you're not even aware of how racist that sounds? No race is "more advanced" than another as all humans are equally advanced simply dealing with different environments. An alien coming from another planet would be amazed that humans made any differentiation in relation to skin color and probably ask why the same distinctions aren't made for hair and eye color. Does the fact that some people have blue eyes and some have brown differentiate them racially? If not why not? What's so special about skin color?

And FTR, racism doesn't always manifest as "hate". Sometimes it manifests as neglect because a person or institution finds reality to hard to deal with.

@redbai
Racial differences are more than skin/eye color. And if I were “racist “ then why would I admit that Asians are smarter in math and science than whites..... and yes you are correct on Environment!! Living in tropical area requires more physical power and less abstract thought. In tropics, your main survival is escaping many fast predators. when you live in cold areas, you have to PLAN for the winter and pre-think food preservation. In tropical areas there’s food growing YEAR ROUND! Different skills evolved from different environment. There’s plenty of science to prove this shit

@SocialDarwin Yeah, let's dig in deeper to the racist stereotypes. I love how you think the racist assumption that asians are better at math than whites. I know some white people and some asians that would disagree. How does adhering to a positive stereotype make you any less a racist than adhering to what you think is a negative one?

And what other traits besides skin color define "race"?

@redbai
I do not feel any hatred for other races. Also, I don’t feel any GUILT for being white!(and a little Cherokee). I just think it’s similar to Christian ignorance (denying science) to ignore scientific evidence.

@SocialDarwin Well, given you've put forth no "scientific evidence", there has been no ignorance demonstrated of such evidence relevant in this dialog. Your assumption that racism only manifests as hatred demonstrates an incredible ignorance on the subject.

@redbai
Phillip Rushton and Arthur Jensen - google that. And if the mass quantities of African athletes in pro sports doesn’t open your eye, then you definitely got your head in the sand

@SocialDarwin I don't do homework. I'm grown and have the ability to discuss a subject with people who actually know what their talking about. I assume that when people assign homework, they can't actually articulate what they are talking about. It's usually an indication of avoidance of the subject or that they discovered something and think so narrowly that they believe everyone will have the same insights from the material. So tell me what I'm supposed to find with your homework or I'll just assume that you cannot articulate in your own words information you claim to understand.

Exactly what are you implying when you reference the "mass quantities of African athletes in pro sports"? What is that supposed to imply? Is it supposed to be as enlightening as the racist assumptions about asians and math?

First you claim that I'm ignoring "scientific evidence" that you have not presented. Then you dismiss me with some kind of homework without saying what I'm supposed to get from the condescending assignment and end with a racist trope about Africans that's supposed to demonstrate something obvious which you don't define.

All that and not a single thing presented to support anything you've said.

Open hatred is not the only kind of racism there is. And yea, you are absolutely a racist. Your words here are absolutely disgusting. 🤷🏼♀️

@redbai
I didn’t make the topic. I simply added a view point. I have a black supervisor at work and we get along fine! He has pride in his ancestors and I have pride in mine. He don’t like Mexicans and Jews! Lol. It’s really not a big deal. He said some blacks are racist! It’s religious beliefs that cause more problems.

@SocialDarwin Oh, well didn't know you had a black guy at work you deign to associate with, that changes absolutely nothing. But predictable as whataboutism is a common racist tactic. A black person being a bigot based on your description and not here to defend themself from your accusations, is totally irrelevant and seems more an attempt at a distraction from discussing your character and comments by bringing in a black guy to focus on instead.

Where's the scientific evidence to back up your comments and how does it backup your comments?
What are your stereotypical descriptions of Asians and Blacks supposed to prove?

The idea that religious beliefs cause more problems than racism is a "white privilege".

@redbai
I can’t cut and past a whole article here. If you’re too lazy to punch in a Google search then wtf. Anyway this horse is beaten to death. There are differences in race and that doesn’t have to mean hate! I not gonna teach my 2 kids to be ashamed of being beautiful blue eyed highly intelligent people they are!

@SocialDarwin I didn't ask for a "whole article" to be posted so that's just some BS reason you're using to distract from the fact that you can't justify the racist BS you've been peddling. I also didn't say anything about your kids or that they should be ashamed for being white, so that's some defensive BS to distract from the fact that you can't justify the racist BS you've been peddling.

Finally, like the imaginary unpostable article that would make your racist BS credible if I just went on a google search your metaphorical beaten horse doesn't exist either. A better metaphor would be you've been claiming to have beaten a horse and when challenged because there's no beaten horse, you make pathetic excuses why you can't prove you've done it and why it's someone else's fault your word can't be backed up.

3

The question by itself is a loaded one based on an unproven assumption. It's like asking someone, "Do you still beat your wife?" Indeed, the latter might be a more pertinent question to ask the reactionaries who raise a question such as the one in the post…

Krish55 Level 8 Feb 18, 2021

Could you elaborate? What's the unproven assumption? Who's the reactionaries? Thanks

@Admin The question assumes that "white guilt" is indeed being taught. American reactionaries are like those Germans who resent learning about the holocaust. When confronted with the evidence of how slavery, colonialism, and imperialism created white privilege, our reactionaries are similarly resentful.

3

Everything is about money and the way people look at things seems to be "it is us against the world." This is all normal so far. Once we get into "white guilt " this may all backfire and we see "white pride" and even white supremacy. Then we see that any race might do this, and a lot of them do. We get into an exaggeration that people pick up. It is not good. This is not good for society and mankind as a whole. We need to drop the hype and help each other.

DenoPenno Level 9 Feb 17, 2021
3

The facts are what is paramount. The fact is that white people have valid and legitimate accomplishments within their history to be proud of, just as every other race or culture does. They also have plenty of crappy shit that they can be ashamed of as well - just as every other race/culture. We can't take one side or the other and present it as if it is the whole story - it's not.

The lesson is that we all have accomplishments as well as mistakes and sometimes our mistakes can be awfully shitty. We are accomplished and contributing for those tnings we have accomplished and contributed, and we are shitty for those things we have done that are shitty. We need to own it when it belongs to us and own our heritage. We never make progress without a good deal of honesty about who we are and where we came from, and without a willingness to confront the choices we have yet to make.

Everyone has 2 dogs fighting inside them - one good and one evil. Which one will win? The one we feed. The problem is that sometimes, we have a hard time detecting which dog is which, and the test of our values is how we go about telling which one to feed.

RussRAB Level 8 Feb 17, 2021
3

Everything governments do always provokes a backlash, because there are always some who want to punish government and do not care what the cost is, to them, their moral integrity or other people.

Fernapple Level 9 Feb 17, 2021
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