What charges could Trump face for holding on to Top Secret documents? [france24.com]

hankster comments on Aug 13, 2022:

same as always with him.....inappropriate handling of sensitive stuff.

Fernapple replies on Aug 14, 2022:

I think he handled most things inappropriately, perhaps fortunately, not all of them were sensitive. "Birds of a feather."

“Wealth is a means to an end, not the end itself.

Diogenes comments on Aug 14, 2022:

There is a point to be made- money to buy unending, foolish piles of junk is what the brainless most often do--- but the next point is the need to have enough funds to at least "be functional."

Fernapple replies on Aug 14, 2022:

You have to know when you reach enough. It is the same with everything, eat too little you starve, eat too much you get fat, exercize too little you become unhealthy, too much, you end as a freak like a body builder, take too little sun and you wont get enough vit. "D", too much, and you harm your skin, etc. etc.

If only people would stick to basics, and perhaps start with something like this.

Garban comments on Aug 14, 2022:

I watch out for emotionally charged attacks on established science or scientist. This is a sure sign of a dubious motivation of the author and I lose interest very quickly. Also hyperbole is not normally a communication style used by objective scientist. When the first line of an article claims ...

Fernapple replies on Aug 14, 2022:

That is very true. Unfortunately the issues are also compounded, by the respect and glamour given to revisionists, who do indeed deserve rewards when they can show a genuine new view point. But of course that tempts many, even among genuine scientists to reach for the prize and make exagerated claims, even when they have little foundations for doing so. Which of course sadly does science no credit, and only further encourages the pseudo-scientists.

We had the garden open for charity last week, and raise nearly eight hundred pounds for good causes.

Lauren comments on Aug 13, 2022:

How lovely! Congratulations on your great success and generosity.

Fernapple replies on Aug 13, 2022:

Thank you.

We had the garden open for charity last week, and raise nearly eight hundred pounds for good causes.

Garban comments on Aug 13, 2022:

The news in the US reports Europe is suffering severe drought. Are you impacted?

Fernapple replies on Aug 13, 2022:

Yes, we are not the hardest hit, but it is still very dry here. The water companies are talking about banning car washing and hose pipes in gardens, and have been given permission by the government to do so. I am lucky because I have a spring in the garden, which so far, has never been known to dry up, and the government environment agency allows me to have several tons of water each day without a permit, if I want, which is more than enough for my garden.

Here is an interesting question (probably asked by an American person) and a few Brits responded.

TomMcGiverin comments on Aug 11, 2022:

I wish the US was much more like the UK in these ways. It sounds so much more sensible and civilized.

Fernapple replies on Aug 12, 2022:

We are not quite up to the standard of a lot of the scandi countries yet, but we are getting there.

Many of the great cultural shifts that prepare the way for political change are largely aesthetic.

Fernapple comments on Aug 11, 2022:

The arts, is the traditional name we give to our attempts to manipulate culture and achieve mass mind control. Religion is perhaps the most dangerous and powerful of all the arts.

Fernapple replies on Aug 12, 2022:

@MsKathleen There is much good in art and many good artists with the best of intentions. It is simply that the art myth, the idea that all art is aways good, and that the craft works and performances, which we term art, somehow put people into touch with a deeper wisdom which is always good, is a religion and makes a god of art just as dangerous as any theist god. And just as useful as a theist god to those of evil intent.

Many of the great cultural shifts that prepare the way for political change are largely aesthetic.

Fernapple comments on Aug 11, 2022:

The arts, is the traditional name we give to our attempts to manipulate culture and achieve mass mind control. Religion is perhaps the most dangerous and powerful of all the arts.

Fernapple replies on Aug 11, 2022:

@MsKathleen That questioning, enlightening, and intellectually stimulating are not incompatible with mind control, they are also easy to fake, and rarely present in most art. Despite the propaganda most artists are employed by establishments, who have the money, to back them up and support estalished thinking. The art myth which you refer to, itself exists exactly because it is art which is responsible for propaganda, and it therefore while supporting the pejudices of those filling the paycheck, naturally always presents itself in the best light. As in for example. Nineteen thirties Germany, many if not most artists work for the Nazis, after the war is lost by them , the art establishment declares them to be fake artists, and the few who worked against the Nazis "true artists", thus the art establishment remains clean and all powerful within the popular culture. Until next time that is. Religion certainly is an art, pure art, you go to church for the speaking, the story telling, the music, the paintings and the glass windows etc. It is all about using unnatural overstimulation, to promote that which could not be promoted by appeal to reason.

Christian calls atheists "toxic and "fearful." Your thoughts?

Fernapple comments on Aug 10, 2022:

Point out that the word "atheist" does not mean, believe in nothing, just none belief in a sky fairy. In fact most of the atheists I know believe in a lot of things, perhaps more than theists, believing just in one thing alone, and most theists do, is really the rejecting of wider belief. I for ...

Fernapple replies on Aug 11, 2022:

@LiterateHiker Well done. You are welcome.

Antivaxxers Knowledge overconfidence is associated with anti-consensus views on controversial ...

AnneWimsey comments on Aug 5, 2022:

I have no idea what "knowledge overconfidence" means, unless it is foolish credulousness about anything found on the internet

Fernapple replies on Aug 6, 2022:

@AnneWimsey Some people never seem to be able to climb out of the word salad bowl. Sad but true.

Antivaxxers Knowledge overconfidence is associated with anti-consensus views on controversial ...

AnneWimsey comments on Aug 5, 2022:

I have no idea what "knowledge overconfidence" means, unless it is foolish credulousness about anything found on the internet

Fernapple replies on Aug 6, 2022:

It means basically something very like the Dunning Kruger effect, they do mention that in the paper. If you do not know that, here you are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Here is a list of 50 misheard lyrics in songs.

Gwendolyn2018 comments on Aug 5, 2022:

When everyone else sang "Bringing in the Sheaves" in church, my child self was singing "Bringing in the Sheets." I never could figure out why they were singing about wash hanging on a clothesline.

Fernapple replies on Aug 6, 2022:

In the age of the combine harvester, I wonder how many kids know what sheaves are any longer.

I think that the veg plot is looking good now, but sadly it will probably never look like one of my ...

racocn8 comments on Aug 4, 2022:

There's always someone else's garden that looks better. Take it as inspiration, and enjoy your own unique plot.

Fernapple replies on Aug 5, 2022:

I do.

I think that the veg plot is looking good now, but sadly it will probably never look like one of my ...

KateOahu comments on Aug 4, 2022:

Love the cameo wall. Can I come live with you?

Fernapple replies on Aug 5, 2022:

The cameo wall is my neighbours, but they do have a large house with spare rooms..

Imagine a world in which scientists divided themselves according to whether they were sincere in the...

Fernapple comments on Aug 4, 2022:

It exists already.

Fernapple replies on Aug 4, 2022:

@Imran2022 Yes sadly even on this site where you would expect health skeptisim, there are a few pseudo-science and fake science addicts.

Imagine a world in which scientists divided themselves according to whether they were sincere in the...

Fernapple comments on Aug 4, 2022:

It exists already.

Fernapple replies on Aug 4, 2022:

@ChestRockfield Yes. I assumed that the post was retorical. But you know what they say about assume ? A. It makes an ass of you and me. (Spelling joke.)

Do we like our friends because they stink like we do? [bigthink.com] .

Lorajay comments on Aug 2, 2022:

I loved the fact that my husband smelled different than me. I purposely made sure he used a different soap so that would continue. I think that the personal cleaning products that we use affect our odor. That means, I don't understand how modern humans real odor can be sensed.

Fernapple replies on Aug 3, 2022:

Off course it is probable that personal cleansing products are made to enhance the smells we like, not get rid of smells altogether.

This is one of the oldest streets in my town; a street of the Barbican, Plymouth, England to be ...

St-Sinner comments on Aug 2, 2022:

It looks beautiful. Is it Victorian style homes and streets?

Fernapple replies on Aug 2, 2022:

I think some may be even older than that.

Four shades of Hollyhock growing it the garden now.

Garban comments on Aug 2, 2022:

I only see 4 shades. Who else feels cheated?😉

Fernapple replies on Aug 2, 2022:

Amended.

Four shades of Hollyhock growing it the garden now.

KateOahu comments on Aug 2, 2022:

Do they take much tending? This is not something that will grow in the desert.

Fernapple replies on Aug 2, 2022:

Not much tending, but probably not for the desert no. They are a biennial/short lived perennial and grow to about six to seven feet.

Fire at Planned Parenthood in Kalamazoo Michigan.

Fernapple comments on Aug 1, 2022:

Sorry to say, the link does not work, it leads to a "forbiden" page.

Fernapple replies on Aug 1, 2022:

@creative51 Probably not available in Europe.

Is Religion Built In? Noam Chomsky [agnostic.com] .

David1955 comments on Jul 31, 2022:

Is the question here the old one about whether religion is innate or acquired in humans? I have the view that some people are born hard wired to believe in religion, while others are definitely not, and many are kind of neutral but go along with it for reasons of socialisation. I don't like to ...

Fernapple replies on Aug 1, 2022:

@David1955 Could not agree more.

Is Religion Built In? Noam Chomsky [agnostic.com] .

David1955 comments on Jul 31, 2022:

Is the question here the old one about whether religion is innate or acquired in humans? I have the view that some people are born hard wired to believe in religion, while others are definitely not, and many are kind of neutral but go along with it for reasons of socialisation. I don't like to ...

Fernapple replies on Aug 1, 2022:

Yes I agree, but the bits of human nature, which are hard wired for religion are not very specific, some humans may be hard wired to be gullible, and some to over respect authority, we may also be hard wired towards a fear of snakes, and to favour a positive error bias etc.. But none of them lead to any specific religious ideas, if they did we would find more than a few ideas which were common to all religions, which we clearly don't, except perhaps a few trivial ones like a deep awe for snakes. Therefore while the hard wiring may be fixed, but the softwear that we play on it is almost completely flexible, and can be adapted to any, even modern, needs. Many of us are after all, hard wired for overeating, yet it is still possible to regulate diet, and control food consumption, ( Hard but possible.) and the needs that we have for the, so called gifts, of religion are far less strongly hard wired, than our need for food. We do not have to take the first bad effects that spin off our genetic hard wiring, and assume that we are stuck with them, there are many modern religions, such as sport, environmentalism, humanism and internationalism, which can fill all the needs. And the real evidence for that comes from the thriving and happy secular nations where traditional religion is almost gone, and that, happy and thiving, seem to exactly relate to the degree to which it disappears, Skados view is a purely USA based perspective, a view of a world distorted by American lenses.

I have no idea who this Smith fellow is but I have long held his logical argument to be true in my ...

SnowyOwl comments on Jul 31, 2022:

Since I posted this in the first place my take on it as an Atheist is that there is no god and I am therefore correct but as a scientist I allow for the slim chance that new data will present itself that will totally overturn the theory that Atheism is founded upon - There is no proof of a god. The...

Fernapple replies on Aug 1, 2022:

There are many god ideas, they do not all include, omnipotent and omniscient, that is just an Abrahamic view. And if god is to judge us, then it is the duty of god in order to justify that, to provide clear laws and clear views of its wishes, and since it clearly does not do that, since there are even more variations on gods law than there are on god, where would the justification for being judgmental come from ?

I have no idea who this Smith fellow is but I have long held his logical argument to be true in my ...

skado comments on Jul 31, 2022:

The great irony here being that both wagers are from a Christian perspective only. Pascal’s from someone raised in a Christian culture, who guesses it could be true, and Smith’s from someone raised in a Christian culture who guesses it likely isn’t. So in both cases, they are just betting ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 31, 2022:

One. That completely misunderstands the relationship between reason and knowledge, reason is not the same thing as knowledge, nor the same thing as betting on unknown and unmeasurable qualities, perhaps based on value judgement. Reason is the way in which we use the known empirical facts, and then using the rules of logic we narrow down the possibles within the unknown on which to place a bet, sometimes to only one which we usually call certainty, though that is actually rare in practice and may be impossible. At the most basic level it is failing to use reason which results in what we call fallacy. ( Such as gamblers fallacy when placing bets. ) Reason does not address the unknown, it is merely an attempt to differ between the possible unknowns and the impossible, based on what can be inferred from the known. Two. Why should not people coming from a mainly Christian culture address mainly Christian issues ?

I have no idea who this Smith fellow is but I have long held his logical argument to be true in my ...

TheMiddleWay comments on Jul 30, 2022:

Smith's wager fails for the same reason (pun intended) that Pascal's wager fails: They both claim that the logical conclusion to the use of reason is theological determinacy, theism or atheism Given that reason requires objective definitions and there is no objective definition of god, the ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 31, 2022:

@TheMiddleWay I would say that the big issue is not objective or subjective, but defined or undefined, which may be done anyway you wish in terms of a concept which may be material or abstract. I see exploiting that as often as a deliberate ploy, which casts doubt on the moral instincts of many apologists.

I have no idea who this Smith fellow is but I have long held his logical argument to be true in my ...

TheMiddleWay comments on Jul 30, 2022:

Smith's wager fails for the same reason (pun intended) that Pascal's wager fails: They both claim that the logical conclusion to the use of reason is theological determinacy, theism or atheism Given that reason requires objective definitions and there is no objective definition of god, the ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 31, 2022:

@TheMiddleWay Definition is not though always subjective, if a definition is agreed then the agreement is objective. That is particularly so of abstract ideas like god, since being pure imagination they are theoretical absolutes and therefore require no value judgments, excepting where the definition is not agreed. It is though, most important to agree the definition first, since it is the commonest ploy of the, less than honest, snake oils salesman type of religious apologist to deliberately avoid agreeing a definition at the start, so that they can retain an assumption of subjectivity, and thereby switch and jump between definitions as it suits them. For example, defining god as say, the whole universe, and getting an agreement that the universe does indeed exist, then jumping to a purely theist god and hoping that no body will notice the jump. It does not usually take in the better educated, but many innocents can be fooled by it, and it is a danger even to the well informed because it can be dressed up and camouflaged easily. Indeed the idea is so widespread that I would say that it amounts to almost all of apologist culture, in one form or another.

I have no idea who this Smith fellow is but I have long held his logical argument to be true in my ...

skado comments on Jul 30, 2022:

Reason is as useful as knowledge is complete.

Fernapple replies on Jul 31, 2022:

Not at all, if knowledge was complete, then there would be no use for reason. Reason is simply the best tool for addressing problem created by incomplete knowledge.

'Walking sharks' caught on video, astound scientists [livescience.com]

Fernapple comments on Jul 31, 2022:

Lack of the actual video was a little disappointing.

Fernapple replies on Jul 31, 2022:

@Diaco Thank you.

I have no idea who this Smith fellow is but I have long held his logical argument to be true in my ...

TheMiddleWay comments on Jul 30, 2022:

Smith's wager fails for the same reason (pun intended) that Pascal's wager fails: They both claim that the logical conclusion to the use of reason is theological determinacy, theism or atheism Given that reason requires objective definitions and there is no objective definition of god, the ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 31, 2022:

Yes but you do not need an objective definition of god, since both Pascal's wager and this, are not addressing god in general, but only the limited and defined gods of theist religions. The two self define god, for their own use, as a thinking being able to make judgements, since they only address a judgement making god or not.

These are the 4 types of atheism - Big Think

Fernapple comments on Jul 30, 2022:

It comes from a religious apologist source, and reflects their thinking.

Fernapple replies on Jul 31, 2022:

@racocn8 Their experiment, if it deserves that name, is invalid, since it contained no control to test if atheists, just felt uncomfortable using the word god. Such as for example they could have asked everyone to make a positive statement including the word god.

Any place online if this place goes down?

Fernapple comments on Jul 28, 2022:

Not found one no.

Fernapple replies on Jul 29, 2022:

@yvilletom Have you got a personal recommendation ? I tried a couple that looked promissing, the Redit Atheist Forum, and the Atheist Zone, but they both seemed to have little but the equivalent of the boring single issue posts that you sometimes get on here, and a lot of the activety was months old.

Any place online if this place goes down?

Fernapple comments on Jul 28, 2022:

Not found one no.

Fernapple replies on Jul 28, 2022:

@yvilletom Thanks will look at those, though are they just web sites or social media like this one?

The Dance Many atheists’ interest in science and critical thinking appears to extend only far ...

Pralina1 comments on Jul 23, 2022:

Ok . Can u come to the main dish pls , bcz too much things going on at this table for my pea size brain . So what’s your point ? That religions do not intent to harm , that religions were not builded w criminal intent in minds ? Is that is ? First of all . Who cares . How that point even if ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 24, 2022:

First, Scado says. "My point is that figuring out that there’s no god is no great intellectual achievement. Many twelve year olds are capable of that." And it would not take a very bright twelve year old, to work out following that conclusion, that all of the harm in religon therefore must come from religious culture regardlees of the existence or non existence of a god. Second he says. "We would then need to know what causes religion. One way to do that is to study its evolutionary roots." All things have evolutionary roots, that is irrelevant to whether they are good or not, and even if things were good in the past, that is irrelevant to whether they are useful today. Third. " I spent my whole life blaming religion. For the same reasons you do. It sure looks like religion is to blame. It isn’t." This is the rifle association pro-guns argument. "It is not guns that shoot people." Just reworded. It is not religion that does harm, it is just the people using it. He then goes on to say that religuions role was to. "curb the animals instincts" Just after saying that it is itself a product of evolution. I could go on, but to tell the truth addressing someone's arguments, when their every sentence contains logical contraditions and fake evidence, just gets tedius, if you want more just ask.

Is it wrong that I once considered moving west and pretending to be a Mormon so I could have a ...

Fernapple comments on Jul 23, 2022:

Maybe it is wrong to waste a lot of time and money, just to discover that you could not attract a harem ?

Fernapple replies on Jul 23, 2022:

@Buck No greater gift than a sense of fun, women should be beating at your door.

The Dance Many atheists’ interest in science and critical thinking appears to extend only far ...

Normanbites comments on Jul 22, 2022:

Ummm so..... you still don't have any evidence any god exists .... right?

Fernapple replies on Jul 23, 2022:

@skado It will get worse whether you ignore it or not, that is it destiny. Theist religion may have done wonderful things in the past and still does today, but its future is completely dark, and that is driven by forces of history far beyond any human control.

Is it wrong that I once considered moving west and pretending to be a Mormon so I could have a ...

Fernapple comments on Jul 23, 2022:

Maybe it is wrong to waste a lot of time and money, just to discover that you could not attract a harem ?

Fernapple replies on Jul 23, 2022:

@Buck But I like unattractive men, they make me feel less ugly.

The Dance Many atheists’ interest in science and critical thinking appears to extend only far ...

David1955 comments on Jul 23, 2022:

It's a pity atheists worry you so much... oh well, now, what next on my agenda today.....?

Fernapple replies on Jul 23, 2022:

@skado Then you should be very very very worried about yourself.

The Dance Many atheists’ interest in science and critical thinking appears to extend only far ...

Normanbites comments on Jul 22, 2022:

Ummm so..... you still don't have any evidence any god exists .... right?

Fernapple replies on Jul 23, 2022:

@skado If it is "an enormously complex field, difficult to summarize quickly. then why make this post ?

When I moved up to Alaska over 30 years ago I always carried this 35mm film camera everywhere.

Fernapple comments on Jul 22, 2022:

The big advantage of digital, is that you can take hundreds of photos, for the same cost in money, time and effort that you only took two or three back then. And among those hundreds there are bound to be some good ones, you just have to learn the art of deleting.

Fernapple replies on Jul 23, 2022:

@FrostyJim Back then I could not afford the film sadly. But still that made you work hard at it, and learn to get it right first time.

Whoa, look at it now!

glennlab comments on Jul 22, 2022:

Is that a giant rhubarb?

Fernapple replies on Jul 23, 2022:

Yes, Gunnera.

...cuz I am smarter than you?

Garban comments on Jul 22, 2022:

At least the Greco-Roman Norse and other ancient gods had exciting stories!

Fernapple replies on Jul 22, 2022:

And they did not pretend to be perfect.

I'm new here , anybody there?

Fernapple comments on Jul 22, 2022:

Hello and welcome. Yes there area few here, especially us aliens.

Fernapple replies on Jul 22, 2022:

@Alienbeing England, where we are ruled by the Royal lizard person family.

In Harvard study of Jan. 6 rioters, top motivation is clear: Trump.

MizJ comments on Jul 20, 2022:

Was there a gullible and/or stupid option?

Fernapple replies on Jul 21, 2022:

Guess not. Doubt there was an, " I am a selfish ass, who just wants to be nasty and get away with it." option either.

Is scientific progress a 'good' thing?

Fernapple comments on Jul 20, 2022:

But finally you have to ask in the end, is it even possible to put the cat back in the bag. If you truly want a world where reason and logic are paramount. Then it is inevitable that if people want to use reason and logic, and set high standards, then they will want to use the best form of those ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 20, 2022:

@Imran2022 Could not agree more. Morality and a responsibility to education as well. That is why I would like to see more apolitical state funded science, science is too dangerous and powerful to be in the hands of unaccountable, for profits corporations.

Is scientific progress a 'good' thing?

Mcflewster comments on Jul 18, 2022:

@Fernapple @imran2002 My opinion (1) is that science can never be harmful .It is necessary to realize that knowledge produced in answering one question eventually leads to other questions which for other situations need answers Q where can I get a material that easily releases energy with a small ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 20, 2022:

@Imran2022 Very good. It was a fun debate and I enjoyed it, thank you. Not to be boring but I just added another last comment at the top, which may amuse you.

Christian values.

racocn8 comments on Jul 20, 2022:

Nothing in nature proves, or even gives evidence of God. Even if a god existed, the natural world demonstrates neither wisdom and certainly not benevolence (unless you happen to be a privileged White male). #2 is just schizophrenic gibberish.

Fernapple replies on Jul 20, 2022:

The point was to make plain the logical gibberish, of holding the two views at the same time.

Christian values.

Robecology comments on Jul 19, 2022:

Hard to believe that a solid agnostic such as yourself posted these. Trees and ocean waves are indeed beautiful...but they do NOT prove a creator exists. And why do they constantly refer to a creator as "he"? Why "sexualize" an alleged creator or creating force? And what evidence is ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 19, 2022:

@Robecology I like the last one especially. Do your bullying by proxy.

Christian values.

Robecology comments on Jul 19, 2022:

Hard to believe that a solid agnostic such as yourself posted these. Trees and ocean waves are indeed beautiful...but they do NOT prove a creator exists. And why do they constantly refer to a creator as "he"? Why "sexualize" an alleged creator or creating force? And what evidence is ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 19, 2022:

@Robecology No, I like playing the irony game, sorry.

Christian values.

Sofabeast comments on Jul 19, 2022:

All Things Dull and Ugly Monty Python All things dull and ugly All creatures short and squat All things rude and nasty The Lord God made the lot Each little snake that poisons Each little wasp that stings He made their brutish venom He made their horrid wings All things sick and ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 19, 2022:

I had forgoten that one. lol

Christian values.

Leetx comments on Jul 19, 2022:

What would the purpose of a "creator" be AFTER creation was complete ? ant farm ?

Fernapple replies on Jul 19, 2022:

I don't think that is one they thought through either.

Is scientific progress a 'good' thing?

Mcflewster comments on Jul 18, 2022:

@Fernapple @imran2002 My opinion (1) is that science can never be harmful .It is necessary to realize that knowledge produced in answering one question eventually leads to other questions which for other situations need answers Q where can I get a material that easily releases energy with a small ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 19, 2022:

@Imran2022 True but without science, philosophy and morality are adrift and competely at sea. You need philosophy and morality as well, but philosophy and morality are totally dependant on science, they can not work without it. Science is espevcially not in conflict with good philosophy, since science is, by far, just the most advanced form of philosophy, with the most refined rules and best working practices. Morality and philosophy will never help address the issues of global warming for example, simply because perfectly moral and reasonable people do not believe that it exists.

Christian values.

Robecology comments on Jul 19, 2022:

Hard to believe that a solid agnostic such as yourself posted these. Trees and ocean waves are indeed beautiful...but they do NOT prove a creator exists. And why do they constantly refer to a creator as "he"? Why "sexualize" an alleged creator or creating force? And what evidence is ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 19, 2022:

You have misunderstood, they are not my values, they are "Christian" values as it says at the top. The piece was intended to be ironic. Read it again please especially the last line. Like your meme.

Christian values.

RussRAB comments on Jul 19, 2022:

As natural as the trees is disease that disfigures and kills. Trees burn when drought and wildfires ravage leaving ash and blacked charcoal behind. As much beauty as we find in the natural world, there is plenty we consider ugly and horrific. They are two sides of the same coin and only our ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 19, 2022:

Yes they ignore that completely.

Is scientific progress a 'good' thing?

Mcflewster comments on Jul 18, 2022:

@Fernapple @imran2002 My opinion (1) is that science can never be harmful .It is necessary to realize that knowledge produced in answering one question eventually leads to other questions which for other situations need answers Q where can I get a material that easily releases energy with a small ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 19, 2022:

@Imran2022 Yes human technical progress is a great danger, but technical progress is not all of science, nor even a synonym for it, and we would be completely unaware of the dangers of technical progress and without any tools to address it without science. There is only one world and therefore only one true model of it, Plato And Aristotle did have different models, and therefore one of them was wrong (or both). Science is not in conflict with morality, quite the opposite, most good modern morality, starts from science and the empirical truths it expresses, and if morality is in conflict with science then clearly that is not the correct morality. You say that science is not a synonym for reason and logic, and it certainly is not, but it is a lot more synonymus with logic and reason, than it is with technology. It is quite impossible to have and manage an understanding of the world, by logic and reason alone, without empirical truth to base it on. For example, if I said. "We should burn all people suspected of witchcraft, because casting spells is evil." It is perfectly logical, reasonable and in line with a well formed moral system. It just fails, because it is not empirically true. And science is a branch of philosophy, once called natural philosophy, which meant originally only the study of nature. But because nature is complex and unlike the arts and morality not subjective, understanding it required better methods and more discipline to gain results, science thus became the most advanced and disciplined of all philosophies. And at the bottom science means no more than saying. "Empirical truth is not given, if you want to reach it, then it requires work , effort and organized systems." That's it, and nothing more, and if you think that you can get to truth and morality without work, effort, and system , then you are going nowhere fast.

Is scientific progress a 'good' thing?

Mcflewster comments on Jul 18, 2022:

@Fernapple @imran2002 My opinion (1) is that science can never be harmful .It is necessary to realize that knowledge produced in answering one question eventually leads to other questions which for other situations need answers Q where can I get a material that easily releases energy with a small ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 19, 2022:

@Imran2022 I have added a bit on the end. Which is the part intended for you, as a reply, I only pasted the main part again for the benefit of others reading.

Is scientific progress a 'good' thing?

Mcflewster comments on Jul 18, 2022:

@Fernapple @imran2002 My opinion (1) is that science can never be harmful .It is necessary to realize that knowledge produced in answering one question eventually leads to other questions which for other situations need answers Q where can I get a material that easily releases energy with a small ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 19, 2022:

@Imran2022 That is good, but I have to say that in a much bigger picture way, I do exactly agree with you. In fact I am one of those people who actually think, that not only science but all of human culture may be in the main, harmful. Not just religion as you would expect on this site, but technology, the arts, politics etc. the whole thing. The reason being, that no animal can pre-adapt to a new or changed environment, if a creature, from Africa, say, should find itself washed out to sea, and having survived the crossing, lands on the shores of South America, it is unlikely to be well adapted. Few animals however have had such a dramatic and sudden change of environment as humans, when only a few million years ago, we developed language. Which was at the time, no doubt, a useful tool and a great aid. But it brought with it the possibility to create culture, and probably the inevitability of that act. So that we suddenly changed from being an animal living in a natural environment to which we were adapted, to being an animal living in a cultural environment, for which we were almost completely ill fitted. The first great mismatch. Hence the reason why we so prone to being manipulated by parts of our own culture, like religion, nationalism etc. and why agriculture, gives us super abundant foods, which we can not eat and remain healthy, religion, gives us a super abundance of stories that we can not pick the truth out of, and the media gives us a super abundance of human contact which we can not befriend all of, and so we become hostile. And also why I am particular to make the difference between, pure science, ( Which is a pre-existing term not mine. ) and applied science. Not only because wisdom is nearly always with the nuanced, and that is the more nuanced view, but also because it is perhaps, only perhaps, the one and only human creation which may have a redemptive power in the end. Without science there can be none of the reason and truth about which you talk, because reason and truth are totally dependent on the scientific method, like it or not, if you are looking for reason and truth in any organized way likely to produce results, then you are doing science. Because that is what science is, just the search for reason and truth given a scruture and framework to help it work better.

"To live a good life: We have the potential for it.

Willow_Wisp comments on Jul 18, 2022:

I'd love to be indifferent to things that make no difference. I ignore sports. I ignore most celebrity news. However no one can afford to ignore the weather just as no one can afford to ignore politics or religion in the face of Christian Nationalistic fascism. Today the things you ignore can ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 18, 2022:

I think that M. Aurelius would agree with your choices.

Is scientific progress a 'good' thing?

Mcflewster comments on Jul 18, 2022:

@Fernapple @imran2002 My opinion (1) is that science can never be harmful .It is necessary to realize that knowledge produced in answering one question eventually leads to other questions which for other situations need answers Q where can I get a material that easily releases energy with a small ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 18, 2022:

That is a great defence of science, and I do not substantially disagree with you but. See my final reply that I was working towards at the bottom of the page. Just posted.

Is scientific progress a 'good' thing?

Fernapple comments on Jul 17, 2022:

Hello and welcome. You may like to ask if there is a difference between science, and engineering or technology ?

Fernapple replies on Jul 18, 2022:

@Imran2022 That is good, but I have to say that in a much bigger picture way, I do exactly agree with you. In fact I am one of those people who actually think, that not only science but all of human culture may be in the main, harmful. Not just religion as you would expect on this site, but technology, the arts, politics etc. the whole thing. The reason being, that no animal can pre-adapt to a new or changed environment, if a creature, from Africa, say, should find itself washed out to sea, and having survived the crossing, lands on the shores of South America, it is unlikely to be well adapted. Few animals however have had such a dramatic and sudden change of environment as humans, when only a few million years ago, we developed language. Which was at the time, no doubt, a useful tool and a great aid. But it brought with it the possibility to create culture, and probably the inevitability of that act. So that we suddenly changed from being an animal living in a natural environment to which we were adapted, to being an animal living in a cultural environment, for which we were almost completely ill fitted. The first great mismatch. Hence the reason why we so prone to being manipulated by parts of our own culture, like religion, nationalism etc. and why agriculture, gives us super abundant foods, which we can not eat and remain healthy, religion, gives us a super abundance of stories that we can not pick the truth out of, and the media gives us a super abundance of human contact which we can not befriend all of, and so we become hostile. And also why I am particular to make the difference between, pure science, ( Which is a pre-existing term not mine. ) and applied science. Not only because wisdom is nearly always with the nuanced, and that is the more nuanced view, but also because it is perhaps, only perhaps, the one and only human creation which may have a redemptive power in the end.

Is scientific progress a 'good' thing?

Fernapple comments on Jul 17, 2022:

Hello and welcome. You may like to ask if there is a difference between science, and engineering or technology ?

Fernapple replies on Jul 18, 2022:

@Imran2022 I am sorry but while I agree that science and engineering are often together I do not at all think that it is rare for them to be apart,. In fact that is the most common state, and a good argument could be made that science which is conected to engineering or funded by the commercial need for research is not truly science at all, but merely research.

How does belief in the existence of a genocidal maniac in the sky make you a good and moral person?

TheMiddleWay comments on Jul 17, 2022:

Off the top of my head: 1) Belief that even if you trick every single human being of your malfeasance there is still one non-human being that you can't trick is an incentive to not do that malfeasance for a lot of people. 2) during the birth of religions, people's were subject to many beliefs ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 18, 2022:

Good list.

How does belief in the existence of a genocidal maniac in the sky make you a good and moral person?

KateOahu comments on Jul 17, 2022:

Why do people keep saying “up in the sky”? Where is it written that ”god” or “heaven” is either “up” or “in the sky”? I’m afraid my religious education is sorely lacking.

Fernapple replies on Jul 18, 2022:

There would I think though be a reasonable presumption on a western web site, that god equals the Abrahamic god, who was originally a sky god. Probably even a fairly limited sky god, who main remit was rain and thunder storms, and it was only over time that he became the Jewish god and took on a wider use.

Is scientific progress a 'good' thing?

Fernapple comments on Jul 17, 2022:

Hello and welcome. You may like to ask if there is a difference between science, and engineering or technology ?

Fernapple replies on Jul 18, 2022:

@Imran2022 I do not dispute that science can do harm, if it did not, it would be just about the only thing in the human world which does not do both harm and good. But I do dispute the lumping together of science and engineering/technology, since it is I think indisputable that technologies such as burning coal and oil would have been discovered by accident and pure design, even if we did not have science. But without science, we would not have any idea of the effects of those, and our use of them would probably be far less efficient making the effects worse.

Is scientific progress a 'good' thing?

Fernapple comments on Jul 17, 2022:

Hello and welcome. You may like to ask if there is a difference between science, and engineering or technology ?

Fernapple replies on Jul 17, 2022:

@Imran2022 But how would you know about climate change if it was not for science ?

Perhaps a little one sided in its opinion, but at least one well respected thinker does not think ...

Garban comments on Jul 17, 2022:

So morality, without religion, functions to stabilize communities of social mammals. I wonder if we might learn something from this?😉 I especially liked the reconciliation aspect he was speaking about; a lesson that humans may eventually grasp? Good stuff. Thanks.

Fernapple replies on Jul 17, 2022:

Julie808's thought and my reply below may interest you.

Perhaps a little one sided in its opinion, but at least one well respected thinker does not think ...

Julie808 comments on Jul 17, 2022:

It seems that the simple natural consequence of being well thought of by peers can do quite nicely as a moral compass!

Fernapple replies on Jul 17, 2022:

It is your best investment I think. Apologists often also ask about the rise of civilization, and especially how moral loyalities come to reach out to larger groups than the extended family. I think that in that the much overlooked aspect of life called "trade" comes into play. Trade gets a bad name, because today it is very much associated with many negative things like capitalism and advertizing. But in its early days when trade was just bartering for things wanted and needed, then trade partners would be the first real extention of social life beyond the family, and your " need to be well thought of" and those who you yourself think well of, soon becomes a drive and demand, to protect the members of the trade network. While with trade for the first time the competetive nature of life, becomes subverted because for the first time successful competition becomes pleasing others !!

Is scientific progress a 'good' thing?

Fernapple comments on Jul 17, 2022:

Hello and welcome. You may like to ask if there is a difference between science, and engineering or technology ?

Fernapple replies on Jul 17, 2022:

@Imran2022 Now you are getting there. And would it be possible to stop science and its use for engineering even if you wanted to ?

Perhaps a little one sided in its opinion, but at least one well respected thinker does not think ...

racocn8 comments on Jul 17, 2022:

Hitchens is especially eloquent, but similar comments can be found by Richard Dawkins, Stephen Fry, and many others. It is the counter proposition that needs to be examined: Can belief in obvious and absurd mythology generate anything but moral degradation? (I'll dub that the HAL9000 argument)....

Fernapple replies on Jul 17, 2022:

Yes, a complete reversal of the most fundamental of natural moral feelings.

"Summer time, when the livin', is easy."

Robecology comments on Jul 16, 2022:

Where's this taken...and what's the game called?

Fernapple replies on Jul 16, 2022:

Its just outside my house. It is lawn bowls, the idea is that you roll the bowls to get them as close as you can to a small ball called the jack. The added complication comes from the fact that, the bowls have a weight built in called the bias, which makes them curve, and you have to try to find ways to use the curve to get past the other bowls to the jack. All without landing in a trench, called the ditch, around the outside of the green. Men and women play together, and it is great fun on a summers day, especially, if as we do, you don't take it too seriously. White tops and grey trousers or skirts is the uniform.

"Summer time, when the livin', is easy."

Gwendolyn2018 comments on Jul 16, 2022:

No way! My grass is yellow and dry. Too hot to even take a walk. This is a trick picture!

Fernapple replies on Jul 16, 2022:

@Gwendolyn2018 I have a spare room.

"Summer time, when the livin', is easy."

Gwendolyn2018 comments on Jul 16, 2022:

No way! My grass is yellow and dry. Too hot to even take a walk. This is a trick picture!

Fernapple replies on Jul 16, 2022:

This is England, wet even in summer, but our greenkeeper does give water as well. It never gets too hot not to take a walk, in fact it never gets too hot not to go out without taking a coat with you, even if you don't wear it. But this week it is said we are going to get our hottest ever temps, over 30 centigrade.

"Summer time, when the livin', is easy."

Marionville comments on Jul 16, 2022:

Are you in the grip of the heatwave where you live? They say it’ll peak at around 40.C this weekend! Keep shaded and well hydrated if you are. We’re a much more comfortable low 20s here on this side of the Irish Sea…thankfully!

Fernapple replies on Jul 16, 2022:

@Marionville We are said to get thirty six.

"Summer time, when the livin', is easy."

Marionville comments on Jul 16, 2022:

Are you in the grip of the heatwave where you live? They say it’ll peak at around 40.C this weekend! Keep shaded and well hydrated if you are. We’re a much more comfortable low 20s here on this side of the Irish Sea…thankfully!

Fernapple replies on Jul 16, 2022:

No heat wave yet but very dry, they are however talking about records being broken on Monday and Tuesday. Thank you for the advice.

I'm so tired of hearing people say "I have very intelligent friends who support trump.

FvckY0u comments on Jul 15, 2022:

Perhaps a person likes trump because they to are a fascist.

Fernapple replies on Jul 16, 2022:

Would you wear a red maga hat for a day, if you thought someone was offering you a million dollars to do so ? Perhaps not, but some would, for far less, even though their conscience tells them its wrong.

I'm so tired of hearing people say "I have very intelligent friends who support trump.

Leetx comments on Jul 15, 2022:

I am at a loss how ANYONE could listen to trump speak for two minutes and not know he is, (for lack of a better term) an ass clown. I feel sorry for those who believe his dumb ass.

Fernapple replies on Jul 16, 2022:

If you have a vested selfish interest, in being allowed to continue to act like a clown yourself, even though you should be clever enough to know better. Then .......

To a degree I do have some sympathy with the religious fundamentalist and literalist.

Flyingsaucesir comments on Jul 15, 2022:

I don't agree that moderate religious sects are more "shallow, narcissistic, dishonestly cherry picking, manipulative, self serving, and corrupt" than fundamentalist ones. I think it's the other way around.

Fernapple replies on Jul 15, 2022:

Could be, in fact almost certainly to some degree so, but if the fundamentalists see the moderates as all of those things, then they are not wrong either. Moderate religion helps the fundies in three ways, its failings make them more certain of their extreme views, it renders all religion respectable, and it creates the environment in which they can swim and look for support. Both negative and positive assistance.

To a degree I do have some sympathy with the religious fundamentalist and literalist.

David1955 comments on Jul 14, 2022:

Yes, well in fact I think about this kind of thing as well, and perhaps there is some similarity in our thinking. You know how much I despise religion, so no doubts there. It occurs to me though that the general view is that somehow fundamentalist religions are perversions of these religions and ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 14, 2022:

Exactly.

It’s not really about whether you consider yourself an atheist or a theist.

Druvius comments on Jul 13, 2022:

I'm not really sure what your argument is. All humans use metaphors. God is a metaphor. So all humans have God?

Fernapple replies on Jul 14, 2022:

@skado "Civilization was built on a religious foundation." Yes it was, but only by default, because there was at the beginnings of civilization little else available, though trade networks probably helped much more. And yes. "Science is not a replacement for religion." Nor should it ever pretend to be, but it is a replacement for some of religion's functions, and it is not alone, we now have, nation states, the rule of law, secular morality, philosophy, democracy, socialism, environmentalism, trade networks, humanism, the idea of social justice, public welfare, international law, and secular education at least. Religion was only ever a primitive substitute for all of those, and if only because those many ideas offer more nuance, and more honest mission statements, it is now obsolete, get over it. Especially since literalism and fundamentalism will always be inherent in religion, and will be increasingly attractive , to the criminal and the anti-social as they are excluded from mainstream society by all those things, it becomes increasingly their last resort. And to a degree I do have some sympathy with the fundamentalist. They look at moderate religion, especially cults, like the metaphorical view, and they see rightly, that it is, shallow, narcissistic, dishonest cherry picking, manipulative, self serving, and corrupt, and their moral instincts give them a visceral disgust at the very thought of it. Their only mistake is in thinking that more religion, not less, is a better answer.

It is not often a a designer, that you get to go back and visit a garden you made many years ago, ...

FrayedBear comments on Jul 13, 2022:

Well deserved. Did you get a bonus?

Fernapple replies on Jul 13, 2022:

Yes I got a free lunch. Its the North East.

Mcflewster asked me to quote myself, so by special request this time only.

Robecology comments on Jul 12, 2022:

Greed is the perfect addiction. http://robecology.blogspot.com/2016/12/greed-perfect-addiction-and-one-factor.html

Fernapple replies on Jul 12, 2022:

Thank you for the link.

It is not often a a designer, that you get to go back and visit a garden you made many years ago, ...

Redheadedgammy comments on Jul 12, 2022:

How absolutely gorgeous! I recently went back to the house I had to sell after my husband’s passing to see the yard and flower beds that Richard and I lovingly planted. The young couple had ripped everything out. 😕 my neighbor went over and pulled as many of the gardenias, roses, and ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 12, 2022:

There is nothing more ephemeral than a garden , sadly. Or perhaps in some ways happily too, it was always in some ways pleasant for me to think, that, I was involved in perhaps the one major, none perfomance, art form, which is unlikely to ever be a burden to future generations.

Forbidden

Fernapple comments on Jul 11, 2022:

Can also be said that we are all poor, and the rich are the poorest of all, because they prize something that can not make them wiser.

Fernapple replies on Jul 12, 2022:

@Mcflewster Ok by special request.

It is not often a a designer, that you get to go back and visit a garden you made many years ago, ...

MizJ comments on Jul 12, 2022:

The center planting is located to be seen from the windows :)

Fernapple replies on Jul 12, 2022:

Yes.

I went out to lunch yesterday, with members of a group called The National Gardens Scheme, which we ...

RussRAB comments on Jul 9, 2022:

What a great charity. Do the gardeners charge a fee or does the organization simply ask for donations?

Fernapple replies on Jul 9, 2022:

Each garden is free to charge what they think is fair. Obviously some gardens are small, and some are very big, so it is up to you what you think your garden is worth, and you can of course also sell refreshments and plants to raise extra money. Some of the members with larger gardens even have visiting nurseries and crafts people with stalls, like a mini market.

“This idea that being youthful is the only thing that’s beautiful or attractive simply isn’t ...

Fernapple comments on Jul 9, 2022:

You can look all of your nine decades, and still look full of life. My Bestie.

Fernapple replies on Jul 9, 2022:

@Diogenes Yes real style.

I went out to lunch yesterday, with members of a group called The National Gardens Scheme, which we ...

FrayedBear comments on Jul 9, 2022:

Browsing whilst eating my Saturday meal & not putting my brain into gear I was about to ask "where are you" then the gear clicked "he's taking the photo you dumb bear!" 😁 But please refresh my memory as to what an English garden lunch consists off? How many gardens are you talking about ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 9, 2022:

@FrayedBear I would say it is more like two thousand in a peak month like June, with some open more than once, say £500 to £600 each opening. Presse is just a posh word for juice, stupid name if you ask me, and I meant quiche, sorry.

I went out to lunch yesterday, with members of a group called The National Gardens Scheme, which we ...

OldGoat43 comments on Jul 9, 2022:

Does anyone grow cannabis as a health benefit?

Fernapple replies on Jul 9, 2022:

I have no idea. I grow Eupatorium cannabinum, the Cannabis Leaved hemp Agriomony and people keep asking me for some. I have to explain that it is not cannabis, I don't know if they always believe me. LOL

One super cool dude. Photograph by Gary Jones

SnowyOwl comments on Jul 8, 2022:

The Original Stealth Bomber! Love It!

Fernapple replies on Jul 9, 2022:

They have special sound preventing hairs on their feathers.

I went out to lunch yesterday, with members of a group called The National Gardens Scheme, which we ...

FrayedBear comments on Jul 9, 2022:

Browsing whilst eating my Saturday meal & not putting my brain into gear I was about to ask "where are you" then the gear clicked "he's taking the photo you dumb bear!" 😁 But please refresh my memory as to what an English garden lunch consists off? How many gardens are you talking about ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 9, 2022:

lunch = Chicken, pork pie, sausage, haslet (Local meat loaf type. ) quish, salad, pickles, boiled potatoes, vegan meat loaf, boiled eggs, potato salad, various sweets, wine or elderflower presse, coffee. No idea the total number of gardens, but there are forty in our county, times fifty or so counties, though not all open in the same months.

Another semi-bright idea of mine: I wish we could come up with a way to recognize each other in ...

racocn8 comments on Jul 9, 2022:

I believe there is an American Athists symbol. Alternately, CFI may have a pin.

Fernapple replies on Jul 9, 2022:

@LovinLarge I think that she may have been a tiny minority, don't let her put you off.

The thinking error at the root of science denial - [theconversation.com] .

Fernapple comments on Jul 8, 2022:

The three most important things to understand. There are few absolutes, there will almost always be some evidence for and against everything, and most things exist on a spectrum often with the biggest concentration in the middle. ( Its even called the standard distribution. ) Yet it is hard to ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 8, 2022:

@Alienbeing, @yvilletom Well there are a few yes. comment corrected.

The thinking error at the root of science denial - [theconversation.com] .

Fernapple comments on Jul 8, 2022:

The three most important things to understand. There are few absolutes, there will almost always be some evidence for and against everything, and most things exist on a spectrum often with the biggest concentration in the middle. ( Its even called the standard distribution. ) Yet it is hard to ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 8, 2022:

@Alienbeing There are a few yes, granted. Comment has been corrected.

A new look at how minerals form, puts life at the centre of earths geology.

Garban comments on Jul 7, 2022:

I consider myself a bit of a science nerd, I especially enjoy physics, but I’ve forgotten geology. Good article and a reminder I need to spread myself even thinner.😉

Fernapple replies on Jul 7, 2022:

They say, you can't be too rich or too thin.

Are there any left?

ChestRockfield comments on Jul 6, 2022:

I finally got one of those apologists to block me, so at least I don't have to hear his nonsense anymore.

Fernapple replies on Jul 7, 2022:

@ChestRockfield Sorry to spoil your day. As you probably know there is one in particular who I keep an eye on, but sadly I can't be everywhere.

Are there any left?

ChestRockfield comments on Jul 6, 2022:

I finally got one of those apologists to block me, so at least I don't have to hear his nonsense anymore.

Fernapple replies on Jul 7, 2022:

The only down side to that is, that when they have blocked the people who are willing and able to stand up to them. They are then free to bully new members, the weak and innocent without any checks. I strongly suspect that a lot of new members join, encounter an apologist bully, who does not care about giving new members chance to find their feet, on their first visit, and they then never come back again. Which is doubly sad because it is probably the weak, damaged and most vunerable, who are seeking and need community most, who are most likely to be driven away.

A joke about second hand cars.

hankster comments on Jul 3, 2022:

are there any new shiny beliefs to pick from?

Fernapple replies on Jul 5, 2022:

@hankster What is a crock ?

A joke about second hand cars.

hankster comments on Jul 3, 2022:

are there any new shiny beliefs to pick from?

Fernapple replies on Jul 5, 2022:

@hankster That is a little different , you can ask for the evidence that the proof is real, that is the next stage down and is quite justified, since it is not proof that makes a religion but fake proof. Certainly though if hard atheists believe that they have proof of their position, then they become a religion themselves, only agnostics can truly be honest, and have any justification for smugness.

A joke about second hand cars.

hankster comments on Jul 3, 2022:

are there any new shiny beliefs to pick from?

Fernapple replies on Jul 4, 2022:

@hankster Yes provability would remove a beliefs potential to be religion. If I have a box of matches, and I shake it and it rattles: Then I can say there may be matches in there but it could be other things, that is honest doubt. If I look inside, count the matches and find twenty one, then that is evidencial proof. If I guess that there are twenty one then that is honest belief. And if I guess there are twenty one, but also claim that I know that because I saw it in a vision and my visions are true, then that is religion.

A joke about second hand cars.

hankster comments on Jul 3, 2022:

are there any new shiny beliefs to pick from?

Fernapple replies on Jul 4, 2022:

@hankster Sorry perhaps I should have been plainer. The whole point is, that there is no requirement for proof, those that attempt to provide it are trying to sell something that is not needed. Just like the advertising industry selling deodorant to people who wash regularly. That is why all the proof has to be fake, beliefs can be honest and unsupported by any proof, and are better for that. It is the attempt to prove them with false proof that moves them into the realms of religion.