"Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.

Fernapple comments on Jul 3, 2022:

I sometimes wonder if there was ever a day when Feynman did not say something funny and wise.

Fernapple replies on Jul 4, 2022:

@yvilletom They are great ones, thanks.

A joke about second hand cars.

Word comments on Jul 3, 2022:

Beliefs are not passed. Belief is a subjective action that each person does to hold information as true. Knowledge or information of something is what is passed from person to person or in a family or culture. The information can be forced upon someone but it is still their subjective ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 4, 2022:

@Word No wisdom is nearly always in the greater nuance, and I do see a difference between both pairs of words.

A joke about second hand cars.

hankster comments on Jul 3, 2022:

are there any new shiny beliefs to pick from?

Fernapple replies on Jul 4, 2022:

@hankster The store is all of human culture, and there you can find shelves stocked with all sorts of things, like environmentalism, socialism (Not to everyone's taste. ), humanism, human rights, feminism, the rule of law, social justice, scientific scepticism, etc. There is even a stall, deep in a back room, where they will do you a bulk discount on a big box of ad populum. ( Some people say that it is counterfeit, and you should not buy it, but it is cheap and seems to work OK. Up to you. ) The big difference with the most of the new goods you can get today is, that they don't come with the costly often dangerous and environmentally damaging packaging, which prevents you from seeing what you are truly buying, as you do with religion. What you see is what you get. OK, enough with the OTT metaphor. The serious point is, that I have long held a personal definition of religion, which seems to work very well in practice, for me anyway. Which is. "Religion is a synonym for the fallacy of proof by authority." Whether that authority (packaging) comes from, an imaginary supernatural source, tradition, and old revered book, or the magical supposed wisdom of a guru (Personality cult.) The big difference being that honest belief systems, do not support themselves with fake evidence/authority. Where environmentalism for example reaches the point of being supported by no more than unsupported belief, then you can clearly see that. If you say that, you believe that it is our duty and proper function to protect the environment, you have then got to admit, if you are honest, that that is just a belief. And if I say, I believe. That we should not give a hang about the environment, mess it up and just accept that we will be the last happy generation to live on earth, if not the last of all . Then that is my belief, and we have to agree to differ. (I hope that you will think that I am a complete jerk, but that is beside the point. ) The problem comes when someone says something like. "I believe males should be dominant over females, because the tradition of our sacred musk ox, says so. We put out two boards out on the tundra with male and female written on them, and our sacred ox pissed on male. Which clearly proves that it prefers males to be dominant." And there are a number of problems with that line of thinking. Not least of which is, that it by claiming fake authority, the supernatural powers of the ox, it attempts, unfairly, to unbalance the debate. And also that by forcing the believer to accept the use of fake evidence, it forces the believer and the believers sub-culture to accept high levels of cognitive dissonance, and poor levels of sceptical thinking, debate, and honesty, as a normal situation. Which spills over into all other spheres of thinking ...

A joke about second hand cars.

waitingforgodo comments on Jul 3, 2022:

This story conveys a moral and spiritual lesson and any resemblance to a person living or dead is entirely coincidental. Do not rely upon this information in the selection of renewed, re-used or recycled religious goods and services.

Fernapple replies on Jul 4, 2022:

Love it.

A joke about second hand cars.

Word comments on Jul 3, 2022:

Beliefs are not passed. Belief is a subjective action that each person does to hold information as true. Knowledge or information of something is what is passed from person to person or in a family or culture. The information can be forced upon someone but it is still their subjective ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 4, 2022:

@ChestRockfield I don't think I can unpick the salad, but lets try to get to the meat instead. I think that what is meant is that, in the true meaning of the term, free will, we do not have it, because our brains are controlled by the physics of atoms and electrons etc. which are deterministic. But the emergent property of our brains, which we call consciousness or the conscious mind , within which we live, certainly has the illusion, that it has free will, and since we, as personalities live entirely within our conscious brain, we are therefore part of that illusion, and must follow it's logic and rules. And since the illusion is our entire world and the world within which we live, we therefore have no alternative but to behave as if we have free will, even though we may feel, we know is not literally true, and logic and science confirm that. Unlike in, for example, the matrix film, there is no pill that we can take to escape the illusion that we have free will, even though we know that we don't. There is simply no where else to go, not only are we in the matrix, but we are the machine which creates the matrix too. Where it gets interesting is when we come to issues like crime and punishment, since we could ask. If we don't have free will, then how can someone be guilty ? To which I think that you have to divide the word guilt into two, and realize that it actually means two different things. One being the literal sense, of, did this person actually smash the window and pick the jewels up, and the religious idea of guilt as a sin or stain on some imagined part of the emergent part of the person we sometimes call soul, for want of a better word. We all understand this really, because we all know that we mean different things by, was he guilty, and, I feel guilty. And if as atheists/agnostics, we reject the idea of soul, and free will, then the idea of spiritual guilt, has to go with it too. But, that does not abolish the other idea of guilt in the literal mechanical sense of. "Was it Tom who smashed the jewellers with a hammer, or was it Paul." Since without the spiritual form of guilt, crime and punishment are not now a search for, a spiritual abstraction called justice, but merely a mechanical act of society, enforcing rules to protect itself. And that works, because just as guilt can not exist in Tom's case of having a stain on his soul, then neither can society be guilty of injustice in the spiritual sense, if it opts to enforce its rules and punish Tom. What works for one also applies to the other. Yet wonderfully that does not affect the actual workings of justice, as a social mechanism. Since if a society or the nation, are not seen to be making a maximal effort to make sure that it does punish all the Toms and not by mistake the ...

A joke about second hand cars.

Betty comments on Jul 3, 2022:

A belief system that is shared by family, peers, and community is not questioned in childhood and is therefor taken for granted. By the time a teenager is considering a second hand car their beliefs are not even on their radar. It isn't until their beliefs are challenged that either they will be...

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

That's it.

A joke about second hand cars.

Word comments on Jul 3, 2022:

Beliefs are not passed. Belief is a subjective action that each person does to hold information as true. Knowledge or information of something is what is passed from person to person or in a family or culture. The information can be forced upon someone but it is still their subjective ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

True but then many never even consider, attempt to understand or evaluate alternatives.

A joke about second hand cars.

Julie808 comments on Jul 3, 2022:

Yes, I believe you are right about that. I spent a good 2-3 hours one Saturday, looking at cars with my father and bought my first car that afternoon. Lucky for me, my dad was fond of Mustangs, so I had a pretty cool car for my hard earned baby sitting money of $900. I spent at least 20 years ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

@TomMcGiverin So true, and not just in America.

A joke about second hand cars.

Redheadedgammy comments on Jul 3, 2022:

https://youtu.be/VPf6ITsjsgk When I first saw this movie and heard this song, I had my aha moment about religion!

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

My favourite musical.

A joke about second hand cars.

hankster comments on Jul 3, 2022:

are there any new shiny beliefs to pick from?

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

Lots.

Well it looks like Matias has blocked me again, and I was not even remotely rude this time.

anglophone comments on Jul 2, 2022:

I have no time for Matias. In my experience he has very limited cognitive powers and he is almost devoid of social awareness.

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

@David1955 The Dunning Kruger effect is aways part of every would be prophet's make up, and that is fostered and added to, by religion which feeds narcissism in order to make people needy. As in. "You are so much more important than the others, you are smart enough to have chosen the correct way, you are a big part of god's/the universe's plan, we can give you meaning etc. " "And you can keep coming back to us for reassurance, as often as you like. Just don't forget the collecting box on your way out."

Hercules

Krish55 comments on Jun 30, 2022:

Heracles, not Hercules...

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

@Krish55 Yes the boat was certainly carrying loot, but it could have been made to order for a Roman, there is no way of knowing. (PS I do prefer Heracles myself. )

Well it looks like Matias has blocked me again, and I was not even remotely rude this time.

racocn8 comments on Jul 2, 2022:

I blocked Matias about a month ago. Reading through the comments reminded me why. He's an argumentative idiot, and the arguments are not original or meaningful. I'll tolerate a different view if it has merit, and presented honorably. Matias doesn't qualify.

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

I think he just cuts and pastes from apologetics web sites and books.

Well it looks like Matias has blocked me again, and I was not even remotely rude this time.

ChestRockfield comments on Jul 2, 2022:

He's a fucking coward. I destroyed his argument and he responded then blocked me so I couldn't read and reply. I'm better off without his bullshit apologetics in my feed, you are too.

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

I just like to watch such people in case they do things like bullying new members, who have not found their feet yet.

Well it looks like Matias has blocked me again, and I was not even remotely rude this time.

HippieChick58 comments on Jul 2, 2022:

It's not you, it's them. They just can't handle you. I decided long ago that once I blocked someone they're dead to me. I don't unblock. What other people do is their own business. Life is too short...

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

@MsKathleen Well said, and very wise.

Well it looks like Matias has blocked me again, and I was not even remotely rude this time.

Redheadedgammy comments on Jul 2, 2022:

I am blocked as well Fernapple, I find Matias a true snowflake. He can certainly dish out his criticisms of others in a passive aggressive way, as his last post mentioning “those that say religion poisons everything” was a direct attack on me. I’ve written that statement many times on this ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

I am going to write his name on a block of wood, real 'block', and display it in the trophy case.

Well it looks like Matias has blocked me again, and I was not even remotely rude this time.

anglophone comments on Jul 2, 2022:

I have no time for Matias. In my experience he has very limited cognitive powers and he is almost devoid of social awareness.

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

That is true, I suspect that he has lost what little personality he may have had to relgion, it does that to people. The repeated need to pratice accepting cognitive disonance destroys the natural instincts for things like honesty and courage.

Well it looks like Matias has blocked me again, and I was not even remotely rude this time.

Pralina1 comments on Jul 2, 2022:

I can’t believe u bothering w that clown to be honest . If u are black , immigrant , woman , atheist , gay , or u support any of above , that clown is here to tell u y u shouldn’t . He will had do very well in his country in the 1930s and 40s . The nostalgia for a time that is gone even in ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 3, 2022:

I liked to refute his posts, for the benefit of those who may read them. He seems to get his posts from the apologist media, and more or less just copies and pastes, the debating practice was useful if not challenging.

The other day, someone asked: Why has England copied so many names of U.S. towns and cities?

Garban comments on Jul 2, 2022:

England also copied the days of the week from the US.😉

Fernapple replies on Jul 2, 2022:

And the months of the year. I wonder what percentage of people in the USA ever wonder why the pagan Romans and Norse named their gods after the days of the week and months of the Christian year ?

Those hateful atheists who think that "religion poisons everything" (one of their mantras which I ...

Fernapple comments on Jul 1, 2022:

Of course religion has had many benefits, especially in the past, I doubt you will find anyone to dispute that, that is a strawman argument. In part because, in the ancient past, religion was simply the same thing as culture, the Roman word "religio" even meant exactly that, to some, because the ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 2, 2022:

@Matias No I do not think that anyone would assume that, no mention of a time period, meant all time periods, but would rather assume that the present tense was implied by default. However since this is a broad and liberal site, some members may not be all that intelligent or diligent readers, and it is possible that I could have misled them, for which I stand corrected. It is always good to be very careful what you write because of that, but sometimes it is needful to take risks in order to keep things short enough. As to why and how religion switched sides, that did not take place at any one time but was a gradual process, in which the definition of the word itself was forced to change to match growing understanding. Which history was the main part of my comment here. So that I will quote it again. "In part because, in the ancient past, religion was simply the same thing as culture, the Roman word "religio" even meant exactly that, because the modern word culture did not then exist. But the world moves on, and soon, as knowledge grew, and morality became more refined, people added new words to represent more nuanced ideas, starting with philosophy way back in ancient Greece and China, then politics, then the arts, then science, then secularism, then at last culture, humanism and environmentalism etc. in this century. And as new ideas carved out new areas for themselves, the world of thought became more complete and more nuanced, and so did the language that modelled it. And wisdom and understanding is always about the greater nuance. Religion was probably mainly harmless, even beneficial, ( Though I doubt it. ) when it was the same as all of human culture. But eventually the word came to mean just that small corner of human life and thought, where we still deploy fake authority and little else." The word religion simply does not mean the same thing today that it did in the past, and that is not just a label swap but represents real changes in society and thinking. And I am sorry to say that the simplistic demand for a stated single time when the change occured, ignoring the fact that changes may be gradual. Is just another example of apologitics style pseudo-logic, the sort of low trick which I was talking about, which may be forgivable in people infected with apologetics, where low standards are the norm, because it usually only involves preaching to a converted audience who will nod along to anything. But it hardly belongs in real debates between adults.

Those hateful atheists who think that "religion poisons everything" (one of their mantras which I ...

Fernapple comments on Jul 1, 2022:

Of course religion has had many benefits, especially in the past, I doubt you will find anyone to dispute that, that is a strawman argument. In part because, in the ancient past, religion was simply the same thing as culture, the Roman word "religio" even meant exactly that, to some, because the ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 2, 2022:

@Matias I would think that it would get quite a high return of yes votes, and there would be some justification in that. In part because everything poisons everything, there is nothing in human experience that does not have a cost and a down side, whatever the benefits. Simple dualism s belong to religious thinking and sadly that can infect other ideologies as well, especially those who are most engaged with relgion even in oposition.

Octopuses may be so terrifyingly smart because they share humans' genes for intelligence.

FvckY0u comments on Jul 1, 2022:

"However, since octopuses are quite distant from humans on the tree of life, it's possible that active LINE transposons in the two groups are an example of convergent evolution. This means their contribution to intelligence evolved separately in the two lineages, rather than originating in a shared...

Fernapple replies on Jul 2, 2022:

The only problem with that is. That if we both inherited them from the same origin, then why did that manner of using the genes disappear in all the intermediate species?

I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.

Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:

"Some support among people..." *Who* is a proponent of the idea that religion is a useful lie? Nota bene: a lie is not the same as an imaginary construct, an imagined order...etc. Talking about a *lie* presupposes that the liar is aware of the truth. (Yours truly would never call religions ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 1, 2022:

@Matias The term useful lies, was inspired by, the well known quote from Lucius Annaeus Seneca. "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful." Which I thought to be so well known, that most members would recognize the derivation without a prompt. So I shortened it to fit. Seneca's idea is nearly two thousand years old, and has been quoted widely by many authors over that time. Hopefully Seneca is old enough to meet the needs of religious conditioning, to only believe very aged authority.

Those hateful atheists who think that "religion poisons everything" (one of their mantras which I ...

Fernapple comments on Jul 1, 2022:

Of course religion has had many benefits, especially in the past, I doubt you will find anyone to dispute that, that is a strawman argument. In part because, in the ancient past, religion was simply the same thing as culture, the Roman word "religio" even meant exactly that, to some, because the ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 1, 2022:

@Matias, @Redheadedgammy, @ChestRockfield You two will make me blush.

Those hateful atheists who think that "religion poisons everything" (one of their mantras which I ...

Fernapple comments on Jul 1, 2022:

Of course religion has had many benefits, especially in the past, I doubt you will find anyone to dispute that, that is a strawman argument. In part because, in the ancient past, religion was simply the same thing as culture, the Roman word "religio" even meant exactly that, to some, because the ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 1, 2022:

@Matias, @Redheadedgammy I try my best, it is nice to know that people find value in it.

Those hateful atheists who think that "religion poisons everything" (one of their mantras which I ...

Fernapple comments on Jul 1, 2022:

Of course religion has had many benefits, especially in the past, I doubt you will find anyone to dispute that, that is a strawman argument. In part because, in the ancient past, religion was simply the same thing as culture, the Roman word "religio" even meant exactly that, to some, because the ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 1, 2022:

@Matias No my last was only about the present and future. I made no mention of the past. Really, if that is the kind of silly joke argument that you think is worth making, it is time to consider the damage to the personality that long term contact with religious appologetics may be doing. It is I know, common place in theist circles to use that sort of misdirection, but they never seem to realize that outside in the open air that is only going to make them look silly. Quotes, it only took seconds to run these down, and there are lots more. "And of course we can retain a sentimental loyalty to the cultural traditions of, say, Judaism, Anglicanism or Islam, and even participate in religious rituals such as marriages and funerals " "It is time to face up to the important role that God plays in consoling us; and the humanitarian challenge , if he does not exist." Both R. Dawkins.

Hercules

Krish55 comments on Jun 30, 2022:

Heracles, not Hercules...

Fernapple replies on Jul 1, 2022:

Yes, Heracles if Greek but Hercules in Latinized form if Roman. And since it was found in Greece, you would think Heracles, but then it was found on a probably Roman ship, probably headed for Rome, and probably owned by a Roman, so could be either really.

I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.

Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:

"Some support among people..." *Who* is a proponent of the idea that religion is a useful lie? Nota bene: a lie is not the same as an imaginary construct, an imagined order...etc. Talking about a *lie* presupposes that the liar is aware of the truth. (Yours truly would never call religions ...

Fernapple replies on Jul 1, 2022:

@Matias No I explained the difference between a imaginary constructs, or honest beliefs, like for example money, and religions below. Maybe you missed it.

I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.

Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:

"Some support among people..." *Who* is a proponent of the idea that religion is a useful lie? Nota bene: a lie is not the same as an imaginary construct, an imagined order...etc. Talking about a *lie* presupposes that the liar is aware of the truth. (Yours truly would never call religions ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:

@Matias Here you go. https://agnostic.com/post/671948/one-of-the-fundamental-misconceptions-many-atheists-have-is-that-they-consider-religion-to-be-nothin

Why Do I Care What People Believe? Worth a watch indeed! [youtube.com]

nogod4me comments on Jun 30, 2022:

"A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self." - Eric Hoffer, Author of The ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:

Great quotes. Why not post them in the quotes group ?

I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.

Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:

"Some support among people..." *Who* is a proponent of the idea that religion is a useful lie? Nota bene: a lie is not the same as an imaginary construct, an imagined order...etc. Talking about a *lie* presupposes that the liar is aware of the truth. (Yours truly would never call religions ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:

So you are a true believer then ?

I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.

FvckY0u comments on Jun 30, 2022:

I view religion into 1 of 2 categories. First category are people that don't believe in it but simply use it as a means for their own personal enrichment or to control others. Perfect examples of this would be various televangelist and politicians. In this regard I certainly agree with your ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:

Yes, indeed, and that is one reason why I have a great deal more respect for the fundamentalist true believer, who may, however wrongly, feel that they need their religion; than I do for the none believers who think they can benefit if they can fool others into belief, whatever the cost to those fooled. The useful lie idea, is of course only used by those outside relgion, or non believers within it, the true believer would not accept that view. I can also accept that some people may be happier with religion than without it, and would not try to undermine their faith if I thought they would be hurt by that. My questioning of the useful lie idea, is only directed at those who want to promote religion, because they believe that there is no alternative and that therefore religion should be enforced. I do believe there are alternatives and that with time they can gently prevail.

I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.

Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:

The concept of "inalienable human rights" is a useful lie too. Or if you prefer: a useful imaginary construct. As long as people believe in it, and it does more good than harm - what's wrong with it? Organisms have to survive and maybe even prosper , and if they achieve this using mimicry, ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:

@Alienbeing Perhaps not, but lots of people would support their anti death penalty position, on the basis of right to life beliefs.

I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.

Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:

The concept of "inalienable human rights" is a useful lie too. Or if you prefer: a useful imaginary construct. As long as people believe in it, and it does more good than harm - what's wrong with it? Organisms have to survive and maybe even prosper , and if they achieve this using mimicry, ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:

@ChestRockfield, @Alienbeing It can be an imaginary construct and a real thing as well, the two are not mutually exclusive. I can imagine it, and someone who believes in the death penalty can imagine that it is suspended in some cases. But as ChestRockfield says, it also has a basis in biology.

I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.

Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:

The concept of "inalienable human rights" is a useful lie too. Or if you prefer: a useful imaginary construct. As long as people believe in it, and it does more good than harm - what's wrong with it? Organisms have to survive and maybe even prosper , and if they achieve this using mimicry, ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:

@Alienbeing, @ChestRockfield Very true. I was concentrating on the arguments of Matias, and missed the fact that his example is false anyway.

I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.

yvilletom comments on Jun 30, 2022:

Please copy and paste a few lines of the comments that resulted in your conclusion.

Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:

Here you go not hard to find, it only took me seconds to chase down a couple of links, (Best to read the whole thing.) and there are lots more. https://agnostic.com/post/671948/one-of-the-fundamental-misconceptions-many-atheists-have-is-that-they-consider-religion-to-be-nothin https://agnostic.com/group/ReligiousNaturalism/discussion/652401/as-far-as-cosmology-is-concerned-i-m-a-thoroughgoing-materialist-but-there-is-nothing-about-tha

I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.

Matias comments on Jun 30, 2022:

The concept of "inalienable human rights" is a useful lie too. Or if you prefer: a useful imaginary construct. As long as people believe in it, and it does more good than harm - what's wrong with it? Organisms have to survive and maybe even prosper , and if they achieve this using mimicry, ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:

Yes but I was not talking about 'all' imaginary contructs in the post, but only religion as a useful lie. That is why the words, "where religion is seen", appear in the second sentence, quite plainly. Not all imaginary constructs which people choose to believe in are lies, or religions, it only becomes a lie or religion when you are dishonest about it, by trying to pretend, to yourself and others, that it is not an imaginary construct, or supporting it with fake authority, not merely the fake authority of an imaginary god, but the other fake authorities such as tradition and personality cult as well. As to the negative effects, or dangers, of "dirty tricks," well my post is little more than a list, though not a very complete one, of those, so I may leave it to you to read it again. One of which is of course, that manipulating labels, as though objective truth can be magiced up, just by renaming things. ( The linguistic fallacy. ) Such as for example compounding religion with all "imaginary constructs" by ignoring the differences between the two, to enable the use of the same label for both. Which has the especial danger, among many others, of making the users look like dishonest fools in everyone elses eyes. A perfect example. I am little interested in the fallacy of proof by authority even in the case of Nietzsche or Jesus. And in any case would point out that Nietzsche did not say "exclusively Christian idea". And while I quite agree with the probably completely fictional character of Jesus on a few things, the usage of "truth" by the nameless writer of John's Gospel, is exactly an example of the "Lady doth protest too much." principle that, truth is a word most often used by those promoting the opposite.

I see that the useful lie argument still has some support even among people on this site.

David1955 comments on Jun 30, 2022:

Yes, I know what you mean -- a few on this site. Those who like to suggest that while religion is bad, it's good in some ways. I don't buy it. By religion I think we mean organised religion. Most of us don't care If people want to stay at home and worship the sun, or whatever. Knock yourselves ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 30, 2022:

Yes thank you, I know exactly what you mean.

[youtube.com] A video on the truth behind the story of Creation

FvckY0u comments on Jun 27, 2022:

A wonderful attempt at cognitive dissonance. For those that believe in the bable. That would, of course be those that were born in a Christian society and Christian family or converted to christianity through fear of being killed. Discount all gods throughout history both accepted and thrown on ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 28, 2022:

@skado I think that fvckyou is refering to learning to live with, accept or ignore, cognitive dissonance. Which can certainly be a learned and praticed art form, often propagated by institutions promoting irrational world views.

[motherjones.

Garban comments on Jun 27, 2022:

Amazing how stupid people are. “Women on the pill are less attractive to men according to various studies. Further to this, research suggests that women on the pill are attracted to less masculine men.” Wow. They really think people are livestock.

Fernapple replies on Jun 28, 2022:

Could be that. Women who are more intelligent may be more likely to use birth control, and be less likely to be attracted to stupid jocks.

In America everyone has the right to be ignorant and most Americans take full advantage of it.

racocn8 comments on Jun 27, 2022:

Education is mandatory, but the process of education has been stymied by a protracted cultural battle between teachers and the fascist Christians who benefit from having ignorant, easily manipulated people.

Fernapple replies on Jun 28, 2022:

@anglophone Nor is teaching.

Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...

Alienbeing comments on Jun 25, 2022:

First, the USA is NOT a Democracy at th Federal level, nor was it ever intended to be one. Second, we are a nation of laws, Judges review laws in ALL countries. Third, the USA has always left most decisions to States. Read the last paragraph of our Constitution and perhaps you will understand.

Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:

@Alienbeing Thank you again. The first one was actually the one I found, but not the second.

A society that is not also a community is nothing more than a collection of individuals.

FrayedBear comments on Jun 25, 2022:

Sadly often held together by ignorance & belief in the umproven fairy tail. Rarely working for the benefit of all.

Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:

@FrayedBear Depends on what fairy tale you pick. I think that some of the modern ones, like environmentalism, human rights, humanism, and internationalism are a big improvement on the old ones like theism. And yes they are all of them fairly tales, since non of them are based on any logical historic proof, only our natural instinctive feelings. ( We could for example, all say. "f~~k the environment, let us be the last humans on a survivable earth. And it would be perfectly logical, it just would not feel good. ) But the big benefit of the modern "belief systems", which is perhaps a more dignified word than "fairy tales", is that they are to a greater degree honest. It is fine to admit that they have no support other than instinct and ad populum, and by not setting up fake sources of authority such as old books, supernatural revelation, tradition, guru based wisdom etc. You do not create a lie friendly culture, where the sources of fake authority set up for one thing, can be picked up and used by the anti social, for quite others. Such as where nazies picked up cultural Christianity, and use its authority and its preconditioning of people to accept high levels of cognitive disonance to manipulate the population. The modern belief systems at least 'try' to fit within a scientific sceptical framework. When once you start down the road however of the "useful lie" idea then you create a lie friendly cultural environment and you can then be led down any path. As much as anything, it is not what a belief system stands for, that counts, so much as whether by trying to be honest, and showing high levels of respect for sceptical thinking, it trains the population to be honest and sceptical.

Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...

Garban comments on Jun 25, 2022:

Not a lawyer but from what I understand the right to abortion is not codified in any federal law. The Row vs Wade ruling “extended” the right to privacy to cover abortion, sexuality, and other rights. With Roe struck down all of these rights are relegated to whatever laws are on the books in the...

Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:

@Alienbeing I will read it be sure.

Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...

Garban comments on Jun 25, 2022:

Not a lawyer but from what I understand the right to abortion is not codified in any federal law. The Row vs Wade ruling “extended” the right to privacy to cover abortion, sexuality, and other rights. With Roe struck down all of these rights are relegated to whatever laws are on the books in the...

Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:

Thank you.

Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...

anglophone comments on Jun 25, 2022:

It does not help matters when such judges are appointed by a career criminal who has yet to be prosecuted.

Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:

No I can see a big problem with that.

Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...

LovinLarge comments on Jun 25, 2022:

Our Constitution establishes three branches of government intended to check and balance each other: the judiciary, the executive and the legislative branch. SCOTUS, the Supreme Court of the US is our final judicial arbiter. Its judges are appointed for life, although many judges in the US are ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:

Thank you.

Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...

Alienbeing comments on Jun 25, 2022:

First, the USA is NOT a Democracy at th Federal level, nor was it ever intended to be one. Second, we are a nation of laws, Judges review laws in ALL countries. Third, the USA has always left most decisions to States. Read the last paragraph of our Constitution and perhaps you will understand.

Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:

Thank you.

Could the Americans on this site, tell me please, as someone not from the USA, how does it happen, ...

David1955 comments on Jun 25, 2022:

I suspect the real question is how can the highest court in a country that lectures the rest of the world about liberty and democracy be little more than an extension of the political party system, an instrument to pursue a political party agenda, and a regressive one at that? It shows that the ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:

Thank you.

SCOTUS to-do list: - Abolish abortion (done) - Widen gun ownership (partially done, more yet to ...

LovinLarge comments on Jun 24, 2022:

They've got an eye on contraception too but most importantly returning voting to white men who own real property, if not outright, at least making it as difficult as possible for anyone else.

Fernapple replies on Jun 25, 2022:

Have they not already made voting as difficult as possible ? I have seen photos of mile long lines outside your polling stations.

Steven Weinberg once said, "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can...

skado comments on Jun 21, 2022:

I dislike this quote too, for the reasons you mentioned, plus it simply isn’t true at any level of analysis. It reveals a hateful prejudice as bad as any religious fundamentalism. It commits all the errors it accuses others of. And it is tribalism at its most insidious. It pretends that ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 22, 2022:

@skado Good. Then you can abandon the old discredited and corrupt theist traditions, and adopt the rationalist humanist belief systems then.

” One would have thought that it was even more necessary to limit population than property.

Fernapple comments on Jun 22, 2022:

Whether you agree with Aristotle or not, it is interesting that the same issues are still in need of thoughtful addressing today. Maybe the two thousand years in which the western world has been ruled by a corrupt branch of the anti-intellectual Roman Empire, called by some Christianity, has not ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 22, 2022:

@JackPedigo Yes that is true. Although those who teach the doctrine of endless selfish growth, are part of the religious tradition which taught that you treat the world with contempt, because god is going to put an end to it soon, and you should be thinking about the next world more than this one. Which even if there was a god is still illogical, since as someone once put it. "How can you say you care for god, if you show contempt for his creation ?"

When modern citizens cease to be religious they do not cease to be moral, they still have the same ...

Leetx comments on Jun 22, 2022:

Kurt Vonnegut: "I do not need the promise of reward or the threat of punishment, to be a good decent person" or something close to that. very true

Fernapple replies on Jun 22, 2022:

And yet could not pomise of reward or threat of punishment, make some turn away from being a good person. So while it may not make anyone better, it could make them worse.

Steven Weinberg once said, "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can...

skado comments on Jun 21, 2022:

I dislike this quote too, for the reasons you mentioned, plus it simply isn’t true at any level of analysis. It reveals a hateful prejudice as bad as any religious fundamentalism. It commits all the errors it accuses others of. And it is tribalism at its most insidious. It pretends that ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 22, 2022:

@p-nullifidian Note first Skados obvious self contradition. In his first comment he says. "it pretends it knows what religion is, when the professionals who study it are never as sure of themselves." Then in answer to you. "When you start calling everything that is infected with tribalism a religion, then the word religion loses its meaning. " Something is very wrong here don't you think. Actually, there are plenty of professionals who can and do give perfectly good definitions of religion, as with any word, and most of those definitions work quite well and rarely contradit each other. The variation on the argument from ignorance fallacy being used here, "We can't understand it therefore no one can." is a common one among appologists, including the dishonest professional ones, who are I think the only ones meant, and its use just shows the damage that the appologist culture does to people. For what it is worth, which may not be much. My own working definition of the word religion, which has served me quite well, is that. Religion is a synonym for the fallacy of, 'proof by authority'. Whether that authority comes from tradition, ad populum, or the supernatural. And your example of the Nazis fits that perfectly well since they tapped into all of those sourses of fake authority to create their illusion. While some are able to employ the useful lie argument, the sort of dishonest arguments the supporters of that position employ, and the illogical rabbit holes they are led down, is itself a perfectly good example of why it is not a good idea. It should for example be pointed out that the Nazis were working in a mainly Christian or post Christian culture, and therefore they found a population who were already preconditioned to be uncritical of indoctrination and the proof by authority method. When once you start down the useful lie road, then it is much easier to find the branching points to ever other lie, including the very bad ones, and there are no warning signs.

I sure wish I understood all the new physics that are emerging and evolving.

Fernapple comments on Jun 20, 2022:

Don't worry, you are not alone. “If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don’t understand quantum mechanics.” Richard P. Feynman

Fernapple replies on Jun 20, 2022:

@yvilletom Indeed it does, and I think that I have a fairly good understanding of it, which if Feynman is to be believed means, I don't.

Book review of the Bible...

FvckY0u comments on Jun 19, 2022:

Why read it when you can simply pay someone to tell you what's in it? That's the option most people go for.

Fernapple replies on Jun 20, 2022:

Or even, their 'interpretation' of what's in it, which is probably more fun and more to your liking than the original.

Help me understand the logic

xenoview comments on Jun 19, 2022:

If jesus came back he would think he was a terrorist.

Fernapple replies on Jun 20, 2022:

He was a terrorist. He attacked innocent market traders and destroyed their stalls. Which was probably, if he existed at all, his only significant action.

I'm sure this does not apply to any of my male friends on this site LOL.

Matias comments on Jun 19, 2022:

Polyandry exists in some parts of south east Asia, but there a woman always married two or three brothers, because unrelated men would be at each other's throat sooner or later

Fernapple replies on Jun 20, 2022:

I have heard. It ensures that there is only one breeding female in each family, which controls population growth, and means that such societies are often more stable and wealthier than the surounding cultures. While the many unmarried women get some compensation by being given leading roles, in the religious and artistic culture.

I think this is a perfect description.

yvilletom comments on Jun 19, 2022:

A fear bordering on paranoia moves right wingers and they seem to believe fear moves everyone.

Fernapple replies on Jun 20, 2022:

It is like the dishonest, who can never imagine what it is to be motivated by a pssion for truth, or the selfish who can not imagine what it is to be charitable, so they all imagine that such things are just tricks or fake. Because it is possible for a strong person to imagine walking in a weak persons shoes, but not the other way round. So the weak only ever see a reflection of their own failings in everyone else, misandry is the philosophy of the weak.

Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?

Matias comments on Jun 18, 2022:

Are religions especially divisive? No. At least not in modern societies. The most salient and dangerous separations and segregations we see in the US or in other Western countries have nothing to do with religions, but with politics and ideology. There is a healthy competition between hundreds...

Fernapple replies on Jun 19, 2022:

@Matias I do understand that many churches do good works. But one can do good works both for a bad motivation, and despite other bad motivations. But no, I do not limit my remarks by any means to American Christianity. For no jihadist, to take the crudest of examples, ever blew themselves up with a suicide vest out of the spirit of humility. No, they intended to join the most eleit and exclusive band of martyres ever, and almost the whole motivation was to be someone special. If the churches in Germany are free of the promotion of narcissism, and I will for the sake of arguement take your word for it, though I am sceptical, then you are very lucky and perhaps unique. Though it has to be said that the promotion of good causes, is hardly proof of that, since good causes can be motivated quite well by vanity. But of course when the congregations are talking about. "human rights, about refugees, the war in Ukraine, and about climate change. Then they are not doing religion, the existence of religion in someones life, or even in the life of a congregation, does not exclude them from doing other things as well or even at the same time. Also I can only speak from direct experience for my own national church, The Church of England, which is not in America obviously. And I can say that the main driving force behind that, is not even spiritual narcissism, but for the most part, the most basic sorts of secular snobbery and vanities.

Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?

Matias comments on Jun 18, 2022:

Are religions especially divisive? No. At least not in modern societies. The most salient and dangerous separations and segregations we see in the US or in other Western countries have nothing to do with religions, but with politics and ideology. There is a healthy competition between hundreds...

Fernapple replies on Jun 19, 2022:

@Matias I am sure that religion is not the only source of narcissism, and that it can indeed be found in many institutions. My contention is simply that while businesses, sports, arts etc. may contain narcissism and sometimes promote it, they do have other products. ( Though it could be argued that some sports and arts are religions in many ways. ) While religion is alone in having no other major product, and in promoting pure nacissism for its own sake. I did not bother to include any scientific evidence, since he remarks were intended as a mainly subjective judgement, which does not therefore come within the remit of science, but there is actually plenty of indirect evidence out there. To give just one example the link between vacine rejection, and the clearly narcissistic view that, "I have special protection," is well documented. https://www.vox.com/2019/6/19/18681930/religion-vaccine-refusal It is true that a lot of religion seems at first glance to be about humility, but it is a very strange, and almost certainly in many ways probably fake, sort of humility. Which says that. "I submit to god" ( The literal meaning of Islam. ) But which also says that, god is the best friend that anyone ever had, far better than any other friend, exclusive to my group, and therefore I have the very best friend, who is going to give me everything. " I am devoted to my gang, because my gang is the best gang ever, with the best gang leader by far, and my devotion is the most humble of anybodies." Is not really what humility should mean. Indeed the irony of the claim to be, the most humble, seems to be lost on many.

Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?

Julie808 comments on Jun 18, 2022:

The narcissism isn't an aspect I've considered before, but that makes sense. The believers (in many cases, but not all) are made to believe they are special and they will be rewarded later for the suffering they are doing now. They are made to believe that non-believers are evil and not to be ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 19, 2022:

Exactly, your thoughts are welcome, especially the last bit, for I did perhaps over play the divisiveness at the beginning, it was the narcissism which really interested me.

At one time there was supposedly separation of church and state but suddenly churches have expanded ...

Fernapple comments on Jun 18, 2022:

Good question. I think that what happens is that the extremists want power, and they can't get it by honestly winning elections, or getting people to read their nonsense. So they go to the one place where they can say anything, and claim it has the authority of god/Jesus/scripture/tradition to back ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:

@Lorajay Sorry, but sometimes I think that the US is still in the middle ages.

“Possession of material riches, without inner peace, is like dying of thirst while bathing in a ...

Fernapple comments on Jun 18, 2022:

It is also frequently, like swimming deeper into the lake while drowning.

Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:

@Marionville, @Diogenes My thoughts exactly. My big passion is travel, and I do not care if that means a luxury hotel, or the back of a van, because the wayside flowers, ( literally and metaphorically ) which are the important things in travel, are just as bright to those who arive in a van, while luxury is often just a gilded prison. Also I know that time is short, ill health and death will always come in the end, even for the pampered. I do hope however that your medical issues are resolved well and soon. Bells Palsy sounds very nasty, and I hope you will still have time and health to view a few more flowers yourself.

“Possession of material riches, without inner peace, is like dying of thirst while bathing in a ...

Fernapple comments on Jun 18, 2022:

It is also frequently, like swimming deeper into the lake while drowning.

Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:

@Marionville I know and your encouragement is welcomed. Thank You. That is one of my big mistakes, always trying to see a funny side, and sometimes being too flip for the sake of it.

Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?

DenoPenno comments on Jun 18, 2022:

Exactly. The rest of humanity is not special and privileged and your group is the only one with the truth. Nice plot background for a movie but I'm finding adults of all ages today who believe it. Some also seem sad that I cannot grasp it, especially with my fundamentalist background.

Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:

Oh I think that they are the ones without the grasp, not you.

When reason is shut out, all manner of excesses may rush in to take its place; and it is hard to ...

Diogenes comments on Jun 18, 2022:

Not all religious people are evil, even though they base their lives on misconceptions. The purpose of religion is to have control- it has nothing to do with doing "good".

Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:

Yes. To be fair to Dupre though, he does say, "at certain times".

Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?

Matias comments on Jun 18, 2022:

Are religions especially divisive? No. At least not in modern societies. The most salient and dangerous separations and segregations we see in the US or in other Western countries have nothing to do with religions, but with politics and ideology. There is a healthy competition between hundreds...

Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:

I did not say that they were "especially" divisive, only that they often seem to end in being divisive. And there are deep divides along many lines, corresponding to religious divides, such as those only lately between between Christianity and Islam in Kosovo or even Belgium, while in the US the political divide on issues like abortion very closely matches to religious divides. The only reason why religious divides are not as important today, in many countries, as they were in the seventeenth century, especially when compared to political divides, is mainly because religion is less important today on the whole than it was then, while politics has grown in importance. Though actually I would not care if they were not divisive, since I was more interested in the relatioship between religion and narcissism. You say, " religions today sell mostly commodities like meaning of life, community, orientation, a feeling of belonging, spirituality." And what do you suppose that, commodities like, meaning of life, community, orientation, a feeling of belonging, spirituality are, except synonyms for narcissism. Those are exactly what I am talking about when I refer to narcissism. If Will Storr does not see the narcissism in the so called "meaning of life" industry, especially religion, then he is taking a very narrow, probably cherry picked, view of narcissism and does not really understand it at all, let alone its origins. The religious industrial "meaning of life" "spirituality" promotion of narcissism, is one of the most toxic sources of it of all. Since it does not merely harm the victims relations with others, but attempts to become addictive and prevent all true personal growth, keeping its victims permanently needy, and often moving ever onward from one source of so called, self improvement, to another, without ever seeing that those gurus are feeding the very thing, narcissism, which most blocks and prevents personal growth. You need only read the victims own stories like skado on here, when they speak about their endless "journeys" and "searches" to understand that. So that the carrot of happiness fulfilment and personal growth are never delivered, and the narcissist is kept permanently working to support the addiction, in case the, quite artificially inflated, ego should start to sag. Of course shamans and priests are in competition, competition is a factor in any industry and the religious industry is no different from any other. The most addictive church is always the most full. And I did not say that the shaman was only in competition with other shamans and the priest with other priests, they are in competition with each other as well. And how do you escape narcissism truly. You do it by growing and embracing nihilism, which is really just a ...

“Possession of material riches, without inner peace, is like dying of thirst while bathing in a ...

Fernapple comments on Jun 18, 2022:

It is also frequently, like swimming deeper into the lake while drowning.

Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:

@Marionville What me decide wisely, that will be a first. LOL

Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?

ChestRockfield comments on Jun 18, 2022:

Concise, scathing, and undeniably accurate. I feel I should inform you I will be stealing this concept.

Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:

@holdenc98 You are born and you start to die my friend. "Life is a death sentence."

“Possession of material riches, without inner peace, is like dying of thirst while bathing in a ...

Fernapple comments on Jun 18, 2022:

It is also frequently, like swimming deeper into the lake while drowning.

Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:

@Marionville I now get my pensions next year. So it is time to start making just those sorts of choices. How much, if at all, do I carry on, is it enough now. I like some of the things that money can buy, but how many of the things that life gives you for free, like time and health, is it worth risking for the things that money can buy, and money is wasted if you do not find time to spend it before you die.

What does liberalism mean to you?

Fernapple comments on Jun 18, 2022:

I don't know. The label has had so many different and often contradictory meanings, from both the political left and the political right, that it is hard to nail down a single thread. Even if you are talking about self defined liberalism on the left only, then some see it as the same thing as ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:

@SpikeTalon That is very true. I would term you a thinker. The surest sign of a thinker is the inability to fit labels, to them.

Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?

Buttercup comments on Jun 18, 2022:

Absolutely, though I don't have much to add. Humans like contrast and dehumanizing others to feel more powerful ourselves has some appeal. Religion reinforces this in two ways, it cements our sense of belonging to a group and it is condoned by authority.

Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:

Interesting that you point to authority supporting dehumanizing crimes. My pet definition of the word religion, is that. "Religion is the use of fake authority." In other words a synonym for the common fallacy called, "proof by authority", especially when that authority is a totally false one, like tradition, the so called special vision of prophets, or the word of a non existant god.

Why do religions, claiming high ideals, always seem to end by being divisive ?

ChestRockfield comments on Jun 18, 2022:

Concise, scathing, and undeniably accurate. I feel I should inform you I will be stealing this concept.

Fernapple replies on Jun 18, 2022:

Please do steal it, my greatest hope when I post something is that someone will take it and run with it, so that it will not just die on this page.

One of the fundamental misconceptions many atheists have is that they consider religion to be ...

OldMetalHead comments on Jun 16, 2022:

I consider all of those to be side effects of the real purpose of religion, which is to allow the more powerful elite to better control the less powerful masses.

Fernapple replies on Jun 17, 2022:

@skado Probably because anthropologists do not regard that as part of their remit, either that or they have collective blindness. https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/culture-magazines/state-church-early-modern-europe

One of the fundamental misconceptions many atheists have is that they consider religion to be ...

OldMetalHead comments on Jun 16, 2022:

I consider all of those to be side effects of the real purpose of religion, which is to allow the more powerful elite to better control the less powerful masses.

Fernapple replies on Jun 17, 2022:

@Matias That is nonsense, there were always elites, even monkeys and rats have elites, to believe that you would have to find a reason why humans are the only species without elites. Plus the bottom up or top down, views are not mutually exclusive, and indeed are most likely mutually supportive.

“There seemed no question in Dawkins’s mind that atheism as he understood it fell into the same ...

Betty comments on Jun 16, 2022:

That was an example of propaganda. Hitler did it, politicians do it, and religious leader do it. It is B.S.

Fernapple replies on Jun 16, 2022:

@skado The propaganda which perhaps J. G. has probably absorbed from the apologist community, rather than falsely creating himself, is that R. Dawkins is totally anti religious, indeed Dawkins has widely and fulsomely praised just the sort of metaphorical, non literal religion, J. G. claims to promote, and probably includes himself as such. But propaganda often means strawmanning one group to aline yourself with another.

It is getting to the hight of the rose season now in the UK and the and the garden is full.

MizJ comments on Jun 15, 2022:

I was there four years ago at this time, the roses and wisteria were magnificent.

Fernapple replies on Jun 16, 2022:

@MizJ Agreed fully.

It is getting to the hight of the rose season now in the UK and the and the garden is full.

MizJ comments on Jun 15, 2022:

I was there four years ago at this time, the roses and wisteria were magnificent.

Fernapple replies on Jun 15, 2022:

@MizJ Some of the midlands are lovely yes.

It is getting to the hight of the rose season now in the UK and the and the garden is full.

MizJ comments on Jun 15, 2022:

I was there four years ago at this time, the roses and wisteria were magnificent.

Fernapple replies on Jun 15, 2022:

Where in the UK did you go ?

It is getting to the hight of the rose season now in the UK and the and the garden is full.

KateOahu comments on Jun 15, 2022:

Lovely. Are they fragrant?

Fernapple replies on Jun 15, 2022:

No sadly they are not, but I do have R. Alba ' Celestial' which is a pink and scents the whole garden.

Christians believe in the miracle of the virgin birth : The Holy Spirit inseminated Mary and she ...

Fernapple comments on Jun 14, 2022:

Really Matias , I think you must be getting very desperate for something to post. That is a very silly strawman view of the common secular view of history. Do you really think that most, "atheists and secular humanists", imagine that the enlightenment suddenly appeared, as a bolt of lightening...

Fernapple replies on Jun 14, 2022:

@Matias It is not intended to be insulting, and your posts are often very good, so I have no intention of blocking you.The dissent is not anything to me, my comment was just about the poor quality of the dissent which is far below your normal standards.

Placing one's faith in others is admirable provided that the others concerned are themselves ...

zeuser comments on Jun 14, 2022:

That's all pretty subjective, but I take your point.

Fernapple replies on Jun 14, 2022:

Actulaly I only half agree with it, but thought it interesting.

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace.

Marionville comments on Jun 11, 2022:

Taken as a stand alone statement this quote seems on the face of it to be an admirable sentiment….however with deeper thought, I think it’s pretty glib and superficial. There may not be any examples of a “good war”, but if you substitute the word good for just, then you could argue that ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 13, 2022:

@FrayedBear No because I agree with the first part of Ben's statement, though perhaps not the second.

Does anyone know the precise source of the following quotation?

Fernapple comments on Jun 12, 2022:

No I do not know the source, I am sorry. But it is amusingly similar to my old school motto. "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." Which was about the most worthwhile thing I learned there.

Fernapple replies on Jun 13, 2022:

@AnneWimsey Thank you.

One of my pet ideas is that one can hardly overestimate the hidden influences Christian ideas still ...

Charles1971 comments on Jun 12, 2022:

This makes no sense to me. Christians, at least many of the ones in the U.S., make excuses and attempt to justify slavery, have had a history of discrimination against blacks, gays, women, and minorities, have a history of being against equality for blacks, gays, women, and minorities, have a ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 13, 2022:

Skado's science seems to come only from religious biased pseudo-science. Try this which turned up only today instead. https://news.berkeley.edu/2012/04/30/religionandgenerosity/

One of my pet ideas is that one can hardly overestimate the hidden influences Christian ideas still ...

HankSherman comments on Jun 12, 2022:

This seems to me to be crediting religion, and in particular, christianity, with influenceing social interaction in a good way....toward bettering human nature....if I right.....how fucked up is that????

Fernapple replies on Jun 13, 2022:

@skado On the contrary I repeatedly find that science shows exactly the opposite. I do not know where you get your science from, but if it comes only from apologist sources then it is likely to be biased and most probably pseudo-science. In fact another bit of science showing exactly the oposite turned up only today. https://news.berkeley.edu/2012/04/30/religionandgenerosity/

"The history of scientific thought is closely linked to that of religious thought, and with much ...

Fernapple comments on Jun 11, 2022:

In the past many scientists, such as Newton, Boyle and Bacon, were very much inspired by religion, because in those days almost everything was inspired by religion, simply because it was the dominant and leading thought system of the world. But now, they are more likely to be inspired by the ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 12, 2022:

@redbai Yep. I agree with that completely. It was philosophy which gave birth to science, which was at first even called natural philosophy. And the apologists tend to forget that, I suspect quite deliberately and with dishonest intent. Although it is easy to assume , especially if your historical knowledge has been limited by religion contaminated education, that the word philosophy, always meant the kind of abstract study bordering on morality and cosmology it is today. Where in fact, in the past, it simply meant all of secular thought as opposed to religious thought, and a good argument could be made, that philosophy only appeared in the first place back in the late bronze age, because, by then, it was becoming quite clear to many that, the conventionalized religious belief, as a system of thought, was not answering any of the questions any longer, and so people began to work on an alternative. When I mention natural theology and its probably tiny role in inspiring early science, it is not to say that I believe that it was the main wellspring of science, but only to concede as much as possible to the apologists , at the beginning, to make my anti-religious statements more forceful because I am setting out to be brutally honest at the start, and head of any "buts" they many bring up before time, and there is good evidnce that some early scientists like Newton, who spent far more time on religious mistical studies than he did science, were religiously motivated to a degree, even while they worked within another system, to create a system of thought that would eventually make it pointless.

"The history of scientific thought is closely linked to that of religious thought, and with much ...

Fernapple comments on Jun 11, 2022:

In the past many scientists, such as Newton, Boyle and Bacon, were very much inspired by religion, because in those days almost everything was inspired by religion, simply because it was the dominant and leading thought system of the world. But now, they are more likely to be inspired by the ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 12, 2022:

@redbai I never claimed there were any, I only said that certain early scientists were inspired by their religious beliefs. I wonder if inspired may have a slightly different meaning in American and UK English ? The one that I am using is very like. Britannica Dictionary definition of INSPIRED : very good or clever She gave an inspired performance. He was an inspired choice for the role. aroused, animated, or imbued with the spirit to do something, by or AS IF by supernatural or divine influence: With the emphasis on "as if". Of course.

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace.

Marionville comments on Jun 11, 2022:

Taken as a stand alone statement this quote seems on the face of it to be an admirable sentiment….however with deeper thought, I think it’s pretty glib and superficial. There may not be any examples of a “good war”, but if you substitute the word good for just, then you could argue that ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 12, 2022:

@FrayedBear No.

"The history of scientific thought is closely linked to that of religious thought, and with much ...

Fernapple comments on Jun 11, 2022:

In the past many scientists, such as Newton, Boyle and Bacon, were very much inspired by religion, because in those days almost everything was inspired by religion, simply because it was the dominant and leading thought system of the world. But now, they are more likely to be inspired by the ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 12, 2022:

@redbai The inspiration came from an old concept called natural theology, now lost and extinct as a real movement, which saw the exploring of the world and the laws which defined it, as a holy duty. In which nature was seen as an expression of gods mind, which was to be understood through nature. Especially what was seen as design, both in the realm of astronomy, and natural history, where animal and plant adaptions were seen as showing gods wisdom. So that the sciences, were a very popular pursuit for the clergy, like the Rev. Maskelyne the astronomer or the curate and naturalist Gilbert White. I especially picked those three Newton, Boyle, and Bacon especially though, because they all openly stated that they regarded their science as a sacred pursuit. A couple of quotes from I. Newton show it plainly. “In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.” “All my discoveries have been made in answer to prayer.” That was why Darwin came as such a shock in the nineteenth century, not just because he mounted a challenge to the religious world view, but also because his theories were seen as pulling out one of its major props. The world really did change completely in the nineteenth century so much so that it is very difficult now to even imagine the thinking and mindset of those times.

"There never was a good war, or a bad peace.

Marionville comments on Jun 11, 2022:

Taken as a stand alone statement this quote seems on the face of it to be an admirable sentiment….however with deeper thought, I think it’s pretty glib and superficial. There may not be any examples of a “good war”, but if you substitute the word good for just, then you could argue that ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 11, 2022:

Yes those are my thoughts.

You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.

Severnman comments on Jun 10, 2022:

The quick answer is: if you mean a (hypothetical) 'first cause' or 'whole of nature' or some other idea, then why not call it that, instead of confusing the issue by calling it 'God', by which a lot of people mean something completely different? Let's stick to the original names if you want to ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 11, 2022:

@Matias I am sorry basically that is true, but a lot of the academic philosophers of christianity, especially at the grass roots and the popular appologists, are often one and the same person, most parish priests for example are well familiar with deist theory and approve of it in the company of academia, yet fail to mention it in their churches. The hard division between adademic and populist appologetics simply does not exist. But in fact, my post was not even about priests, who talk deism to the bishop in the morning and fundamentalism to the congregation in the afternoon. Often the switch is much quicker than that, quite deliberately made fast just to get it overlooked, often in consecutive sentences. I have heard appologists use arguments such as. "Why should we obey the instruction of Moses to respect the sabath. Because it comes from god. But the atheist will say that we do not even know that god exists. " There then follows the prime mover argument, and then. "Therefore god exists and we must obey the instructions he gave to Moses. " So yes, I think it is certainly dirty tricks.

You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.

holdenc98 comments on Jun 10, 2022:

This dead horse has been thoroughly dead for nigh on to a hundred years among the broad scope of common intelligent men, and much longer than that among the intellectual leadership of our mainstream culture. But you good and smart men here, those still left here clinging to very little at ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 11, 2022:

Actually, only this morning I posted this. https://agnostic.com/group/FavoriteQuotes/discussion/671044/there-never-was-a-good-war-or-a-bad-peace-benjamin-franklin-yet-you-have-to-wonder-since-b

"The history of scientific thought is closely linked to that of religious thought, and with much ...

Fernapple comments on Jun 11, 2022:

In the past many scientists, such as Newton, Boyle and Bacon, were very much inspired by religion, because in those days almost everything was inspired by religion, simply because it was the dominant and leading thought system of the world. But now, they are more likely to be inspired by the ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 11, 2022:

@Toonman I am sorry, I must be stupid because I fail to see what that has to do with my comment. As I said, in the past theist religion was "the leading thought system", so of course it "hogged all the books", that goes without saying.

You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.

Severnman comments on Jun 10, 2022:

The quick answer is: if you mean a (hypothetical) 'first cause' or 'whole of nature' or some other idea, then why not call it that, instead of confusing the issue by calling it 'God', by which a lot of people mean something completely different? Let's stick to the original names if you want to ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 11, 2022:

@Matias Yes although that follows from my point. For the churches so called leadership, concealing even the fact that a deist idea of a god even exists, from their congregation,, is part of the deception. Faced with an intellectual challenge to religion they will happily defend the deist god, but then in the church before their victims, they pretend the deist god does not exist . Which is the basic dishonesty, they have one god in the morning and another in the afternoon.

You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.

Normanbites comments on Jun 10, 2022:

I usually try to circumvent this by challenging them to bring all religious people into one church worshiping one god. If their evidence is that compelling they should at least be able to get all the people who ardently want to believe to believe the same thing. It works pretty well. The ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 10, 2022:

Very good.

You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.

nogod4me comments on Jun 10, 2022:

H.P. Lovecraft said it very well: "We all know that any emotional bias -- irrespective of truth or falsity -- can be implanted by suggestion in the emotions of the young, hence the inherited traditions of an orthodox community are absolutely without evidential value.... If religion were true, its...

Fernapple replies on Jun 10, 2022:

Exactly. Only of course, Lovecraft puts it so much better than I can.

You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.

Severnman comments on Jun 10, 2022:

The quick answer is: if you mean a (hypothetical) 'first cause' or 'whole of nature' or some other idea, then why not call it that, instead of confusing the issue by calling it 'God', by which a lot of people mean something completely different? Let's stick to the original names if you want to ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 10, 2022:

@Matias I am sorry, but I think you missed my point. I am not talking about the prefered kind of god, quite the opposite. I mean the fraud of thinking that if you can defend one sort of god to a degree, then you can pretend that the defence applies to any other god. All those people in the pews who prefer a personal god, will quite happily nod their heads when they hear the much easier to defend deist god promoted by an appologist preacher. Because they don't know, or even notice, that there is difference, and the dishonest pseudo-intellectual appologists, who con them, are quite happy not to point it out. God is just god, to the pew sitters, and. "The appologist just defended my god." Well no actually he did not, he defended a quite different god, called the deist god, except that he is quite happy to take the credit, and dishonest enough not to point out the difference.

You often get the apologists, asking for disproof of some vague, often deist, god concept.

Severnman comments on Jun 10, 2022:

The quick answer is: if you mean a (hypothetical) 'first cause' or 'whole of nature' or some other idea, then why not call it that, instead of confusing the issue by calling it 'God', by which a lot of people mean something completely different? Let's stick to the original names if you want to ...

Fernapple replies on Jun 10, 2022:

Yes, I think that most people here would do exactly that, but sadly there are a lot of people in the world who fall for the trick.