A peaceful religion?

Matias comments on May 8, 2019:

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts. They read them directly and literally, ignoring the important fact about a text from another age, be this text "sacred" like the Bible, or "secular" or mythical (like Homer's works) , namely that its ...

Fernapple replies on May 9, 2019:

Then why promote them to uninformed John Does ?

Here is something to have you thinking as to how puny we are . . . Or are we? [curiosity.com]

Fernapple comments on May 9, 2019:

Many of those loops are far bigger than the earth.

Fernapple replies on May 9, 2019:

@FrayedBear I have heard it said that an AU may not be enough, and that it is possible that some of the mass extictions could have been caused by bursts of solar radiation, since on one knows the untimate magnitude of a solar flare.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

Krish55 comments on May 4, 2019:

Liberal religious scholars have a right to their own non-literal interpretations of religious texts. But they do not have an unchallenged right to lie. These stories were always intended to be believed literally by the vast majority of religious teachers throughout history. When liberal scholars ...

Fernapple replies on May 8, 2019:

@skado Yes but whether it is a good thing or not, religion, due to the conflict between the age of reason and literal belief, is fading fast, at least in the west. At the end of the day what good can a few die hard mythologists do to create community, while sitting in the corner of a vast empty room sentimentally telling stories to no one but themselves. And to some degree they will have only themselves to blame. In the age of universal education the failure to educate that no longer great uneducated mass of people, into a higher allegoric understanding, lies entirely at their door. Whether it is fuelled by laziness, class prejudice or the corrupt wish to obtain power and wealth by deluding the more vulnerable members of society, it still leads inexorably to decline.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

Krish55 comments on May 4, 2019:

Liberal religious scholars have a right to their own non-literal interpretations of religious texts. But they do not have an unchallenged right to lie. These stories were always intended to be believed literally by the vast majority of religious teachers throughout history. When liberal scholars ...

Fernapple replies on May 8, 2019:

@skado I think that that is a good and useful summation. Though the reservation that I am left with, is the thought that. If, "they are building the skill of taming their “demons” (psychological conflicts) and training their “spirits” (attitudes) how to embrace the unnatural task of maintaining goodwill toward large groups of strangers (which is necessary for life in a civilized society)." Then does it not seem sad that a lot of religious teaching is concerned with the business of opposing open mindedness, and maintaining closed minds. Which is exactly the opposite of what is wanted, I would have thought.

We all like to think that we have an open mind, but I would like to place a question, which is.

LiterateHiker comments on May 7, 2019:

**10 Tips on How to be More Open-Minded** https://www.technobezz.com/10-tips-open-minded/

Fernapple replies on May 7, 2019:

A good read thank you.

We all like to think that we have an open mind, but I would like to place a question, which is.

Bobsuruncle comments on May 7, 2019:

My opinion? When something is said that is totally nonsensical, and that is repeated by many, and several others, with no basis on fact, you're probably not a free thinker. Just because you say you are does not mean you are. I guess people that aren't in the sheep mentality? Like people pushing ...

Fernapple replies on May 7, 2019:

That is true but some countries Switzerland and Denmark seem to manage moderately socialist social systems quite well. I think that Socialism says, “place more faith and more of your life in the hands of the state”. The only trouble with that is that, in many nations such as Venezuela placing faith in the state means placing your faith in an institution far more cruel, ruthless and exploitive than the worst of capitalist corporations, if you place more in the hands of the state, then the state needs to be more accountable. Socialism only works well in states which are well educated and highly democratic, where people have real control over the state in which they invest their hopes and wealth. Which is why socialism works well in countries like Switzerland and Denmark. There is I think a direct relationship the greater the democracy the more socialism you can enjoy. but the democracy has to be maintained. Especially since there is another form of economics, in which the political and economic establishments are one and the same, and it is called feudalism, into which socialism automatic degenerates in counties which have weak democracies, such as the old Soviet Union. Which is why socialism works badly in countries like Venezuela. Maybe here in the UK where we have limited democracy we should limit how much we invest in the state. You can decide for the US.

We all like to think that we have an open mind, but I would like to place a question, which is.

thinktwice comments on May 7, 2019:

Not seeking to be "right"...just factually correct; admitting that you might only have the correct answer now but it could change if given new information... Just having an open mind is not enough...you have to be able to determine if what you are researching or trying to figure out is actually ...

Fernapple replies on May 7, 2019:

@thinktwice Thank you I always try to make a post/comment which contributes something if I can.

We all like to think that we have an open mind, but I would like to place a question, which is.

seattlepanda comments on May 7, 2019:

Virtually all of my opinions are qualified as I never believe I have all the facts. As I get more facts, my opinion becomes less qualified, but rarely approaching zero(hmm...reminds me of the calculus ;)

Fernapple replies on May 7, 2019:

Yes that's where I go, but the more facts I find the more I find I don't know. The only thing that seems to last is the old joke. " The more you know the more you doubt, but the world is always run by people who have no doubts."

We all like to think that we have an open mind, but I would like to place a question, which is.

thinktwice comments on May 7, 2019:

Not seeking to be "right"...just factually correct; admitting that you might only have the correct answer now but it could change if given new information... Just having an open mind is not enough...you have to be able to determine if what you are researching or trying to figure out is actually ...

Fernapple replies on May 7, 2019:

That's a good sum of the issues, thank you. So should I just ignore those people who tell me that I am too obsessed with facts ? P.S. My apparent request in the post for an objective test, was just a way to solicit just such thoughts. I know I am not going to get one, but you never know there could be someone out there...

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

Krish55 comments on May 4, 2019:

Liberal religious scholars have a right to their own non-literal interpretations of religious texts. But they do not have an unchallenged right to lie. These stories were always intended to be believed literally by the vast majority of religious teachers throughout history. When liberal scholars ...

Fernapple replies on May 7, 2019:

@skado It has to be admitted, that in a world in which everyone who went to church/synagoge/mosque/temple only did so for community and the enjoyment of practicing mythology ritually, then there would little harm in religion, but while the churches also contain many who will be deluded into literal belief there is always still potential for harm. So that I have to ask, firstly can we ever reach a state where all who go to church go there only for community or will it always be a mixture, and secondly do we have to admit that no other way of creating community will ever exist ?

People Who Always Point Out Grammar Mistakes Are Pretty Much Jerks, Study Finds

Fernapple comments on May 7, 2019:

If you put style before meaning, then you never get to understanding.

Fernapple replies on May 7, 2019:

@thinktwice No they don't, but I do know that some people never get past the first stage.

"Individualism, with its belief in the absolute value and autonomy of the person, is therefore the ...

Allamanda comments on May 7, 2019:

the 'abandoned it's mystical overtones' part is the rub - what he calls the Soul Narrative and we might also call the spiritual impulse, etc. could equally well (and for many ages was) be used to justify our care of the earth, our belonging to it, and not it to us for exploitation.

Fernapple replies on May 7, 2019:

That's true, you could almost substitute, narcissism or self absorption and it reads much the same.

Don't you just love it when you spend time carefully composing a comment to go with someones post, ...

brentan comments on May 7, 2019:

The bastards! I only do it to completely unintelligible posts. I use it like 'whatever'.

Fernapple replies on May 7, 2019:

Thats a good idea,I think I will start. If "Whatever" is taken perhaps "So what" will do.

How Can We Create Inclusive Community?

Pedrohbds comments on May 7, 2019:

Common rituals, that is the key. But is difficult to accept common rituals when there is no authority imposing them. Any community needs a period when people put aside their individuality and show they can do something together. On this atheists communities you talk about they found in the ...

Fernapple replies on May 7, 2019:

And strings of atheist charity shops selling coffee. (I wish.)

It's been a long time since I had some holy rollers come to my house .

Fernapple comments on May 6, 2019:

There may be less of them about, because the churches who did send them out, are running scared from the legal and insurance problems that could occur if they are hurt in any way. The JW have certainly stopped door to door in the UK for that reason. Perhaps they are not sure that their god will ...

Fernapple replies on May 7, 2019:

@Spidey At 84 you should be allowed to get away with anything. Can't wait.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

Krish55 comments on May 4, 2019:

Liberal religious scholars have a right to their own non-literal interpretations of religious texts. But they do not have an unchallenged right to lie. These stories were always intended to be believed literally by the vast majority of religious teachers throughout history. When liberal scholars ...

Fernapple replies on May 7, 2019:

@skado Yes having read your posts for some time I feel sure that is true, and I have no problem with the study of mythology in the library. (I have done it, and of course you can study more and more quickly there.) My problem is with those people who attend chuches etc. supporting those institutions and helping to normalize faith, all of which can be damaging to more vunerable people and society as a whole, while confessing no belief, in other words merely to indulge their selfish interest in childish ritual. My conscience at least could not live with that. ( Yes of course we all go for weddings and funerals because of community, but other than that, you can get community from working in a charity shop and make a real worthwhile difference.)

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

Fernapple comments on May 4, 2019:

Since the only people able to impart meaning truly to a text are the people who wrote it, and for the most part you can be fairly certain that they meant it literally. After that it is only the cherry picking and interpretation of the reader, who is usually then trying to claim that it therefore has...

Fernapple replies on May 6, 2019:

@Allamanda No you certainly can not asume literalism either, we live in a world of probabilities.

"If neo-Darwinism is true and reproductive success a measure of evolutionary fitness, then every ...

Fernapple comments on May 6, 2019:

"Even if religion X or ideology Y is very successful, that does not imply that I should embrace it and subscribe to its tenets." Quite; or give any credit to its beliefs. And if J Sacks is really gullible enough to believe in the literal idea of decent from Abraham, how much credit should be given ...

Fernapple replies on May 6, 2019:

@Geoffrey51 Yes, but there are several forms of intelligence and they do not all exclude extreme gulibility. The two or three quotes I have seen from him on this site would certainly lead to that view. But then they all came from Matias.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

Fernapple comments on May 4, 2019:

Since the only people able to impart meaning truly to a text are the people who wrote it, and for the most part you can be fairly certain that they meant it literally. After that it is only the cherry picking and interpretation of the reader, who is usually then trying to claim that it therefore has...

Fernapple replies on May 6, 2019:

@Allamanda All of that is true yes. But it does not mean that at some stage every text may not have passed through the hands of literal writers, or that someone today can assume allegory based on no evidence.

It's been a long time since I had some holy rollers come to my house .

Fernapple comments on May 6, 2019:

There may be less of them about, because the churches who did send them out, are running scared from the legal and insurance problems that could occur if they are hurt in any way. The JW have certainly stopped door to door in the UK for that reason. Perhaps they are not sure that their god will ...

Fernapple replies on May 6, 2019:

@Surfpirate It is a worry, hopefully they still keep up the tradition of going round in pairs.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

Fernapple comments on May 4, 2019:

Since the only people able to impart meaning truly to a text are the people who wrote it, and for the most part you can be fairly certain that they meant it literally. After that it is only the cherry picking and interpretation of the reader, who is usually then trying to claim that it therefore has...

Fernapple replies on May 6, 2019:

@Allamanda Yes but most have been rewritten many times, and it is unlikely that at least several of those rewrittings did not occur at times when religious powers enforced litteral understanding with violence, even if the very earliest penning was allegorical. Although even that is to be doubted since many of them were simply written versions of spoken stories which came down from truly credulus ages. And remember that until the beginings of secular philosophy there were no other world views available other than the religious, so that even those writtting allegoy must have known that it would be taken by many as litteral. Having said which, it is in any case the job of those who wish to suppose allegorical origins to prove that, if they do not wish to claim that their allegorical interpretation is not just their own invention, the burden of proof in that case is with them. I do not mind any games being played with texts, or historical study, it is only when people claim that their views are "religion" and therefore have the extra authority coming from either the supernatural or are hallowed tradition, if such a thing is possible, and are thereby better than secular ideals. Especially when they do that within religious communities, where their support for those view points helps to nomalize supernatural belief, and and lends weight to the authority of churches etc. especially in the minds of more vunerable people and with all the evils that go with that. It is the immature failing to face up to the concequences of what their support does in the wider religious community, that I find so deplorable in the moderates and the none believing religious, and which almost make me prefer the fundamentaists however extreme.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

Krish55 comments on May 4, 2019:

Liberal religious scholars have a right to their own non-literal interpretations of religious texts. But they do not have an unchallenged right to lie. These stories were always intended to be believed literally by the vast majority of religious teachers throughout history. When liberal scholars ...

Fernapple replies on May 6, 2019:

Yes but I can not see that your two comments which seem to form an argument really address the same issue at all. The study of myth in order to understand human nature and parts of the human condition which are common across all cultures and history is one thing. Using those myths, which I think is what you mean, to supposedly give extra authority to interpretations of the human condition made by the interpreter is quite another.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

Krish55 comments on May 4, 2019:

Liberal religious scholars have a right to their own non-literal interpretations of religious texts. But they do not have an unchallenged right to lie. These stories were always intended to be believed literally by the vast majority of religious teachers throughout history. When liberal scholars ...

Fernapple replies on May 6, 2019:

@skado Yes but I can not see that your two comments which seem to form an argument really address the same issue at all. The study of myth in order to understand human nature and parts of the human condition which are common across all cultures and history is one thing. Using those myths to supposedly give extra authority to interpretations of the human condition made by the interpreter is quite another.

Sam Harris’s argument is that the real villains are the religious moderates.

Fernapple comments on May 5, 2019:

I am not fond of the moderates, though I would never call on any point of view to be suppressed if that is truly what S. H. claims. The moderates however are not without responsibility for the doings of even the most extreme fundamentalists, since by normalizing religion and the idea that faith ...

Fernapple replies on May 5, 2019:

@citronella Yes perhaps that is wrong, it should be that the fundamentalists are more "simply" sincere.

Against cheerfulness: Practising the Greek virtues of wisdom and courage is one thing.

Fernapple comments on May 5, 2019:

Your founding fathers once wrote. "The pursuit of happiness. " It always seems from this side of the pond, that that was wise, but that sadly it turned into a poison chalice. Because it is so often misread as the right and obligation of happiness. Not pursuit as something to chase, but as something ...

Fernapple replies on May 5, 2019:

@KKGator The one crumb of comfort I can give is to say that you certainly have not cornered the market in stupid. We have got plenty if you ever need some more.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

skado comments on May 4, 2019:

Taking art and symbolism seriously has fallen out of fashion.

Fernapple replies on May 5, 2019:

@hankster Yes that is true, and certainly good art is never vague, which is probably where taste comes in.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

Denker comments on May 5, 2019:

I’ve always disliked the way the bible gets interpreted, it feels to me like they should make more of an effort to write in plain language...

Fernapple replies on May 5, 2019:

I think they did write in plain language and they intended it to be taken literally, but it suffered many rewritings some good some bad, and then has interpretations forced on it from above.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

skado comments on May 4, 2019:

Taking art and symbolism seriously has fallen out of fashion.

Fernapple replies on May 5, 2019:

@hankster Not at all, it means that you may put your own interpretation on anything, and may find texts which suit that use, but if you really want to find truth and widen your view, then you must attend to an authors own intentions. Because they are what someone else has to say, and the best authors who really have something worthwhile to say, will try their best to make it understandable to as many as possible, that is the nature of having something worthwhile to say.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

skado comments on May 4, 2019:

Taking art and symbolism seriously has fallen out of fashion.

Fernapple replies on May 4, 2019:

@hankster Any truth or even falsehood there is nothing which can not be expresssed plainly using words, since they are abstractions, and if you have to you can always invent new words. Remember being vague to pose a profound is the oldest cheap circus trick in the book.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

skado comments on May 4, 2019:

Taking art and symbolism seriously has fallen out of fashion.

Fernapple replies on May 4, 2019:

@skado, @hankster Yes but there are many books that give truth , beauty, pain etc. without being vague, and I do not dimiss any text merely because it is vague, (Shakespeare is vague and wonderful,) I only say that it is not good to give a text privileged status because it is vague and therefore enables flexible interpretation which can be used for dishonest intent. (See my answer to William Fleming above.) And if you take life seriously then you do not play dishonest games with the truth, while since words are themselves abstractions I have never encountered an idea which could not be expressed plainly using them if the author has enough talent and care.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

skado comments on May 4, 2019:

Taking art and symbolism seriously has fallen out of fashion.

Fernapple replies on May 4, 2019:

@skado Yes but there are many books that give truth , beauty, pain etc. without being vague, and I do not dimiss any text merely because it is vague, (Shakespeare is vague and wonderful,) I only say that it is not good to give a text privileged status because it is vague and therefore enables flexible interpretation which can be used for dishonest intent. (See my answer to William Fleming above.) And if you take life seriously then you do not play dishonest games with the truth, while since words are themselves abstractions I have never encountered an idea which could not be expressed plainly using them if the author has enough talent and care.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

Fernapple comments on May 4, 2019:

Since the only people able to impart meaning truly to a text are the people who wrote it, and for the most part you can be fairly certain that they meant it literally. After that it is only the cherry picking and interpretation of the reader, who is usually then trying to claim that it therefore has...

Fernapple replies on May 4, 2019:

@Gmak Yes but with old religious texts you can be reasonably sure, if only because in those days not taking it literally would have been fatal.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

WilliamFleming comments on May 4, 2019:

I agree. Anything written down has to be interpreted, and the ideas you read are only meaningful if they resonate with you on a deep level. Some concepts are difficult to express in a direct, literal way, thus we have metaphors, allegories, parables and analogies, not only in religion but in ...

Fernapple replies on May 4, 2019:

You can do that, learn a lot and have a great deal of fun doing so. But unfortunately I do not think that is the way most religious people view it, or that this post is intended, because I do not think that it is enough to defend the use of a certain limited number of texts as special. You can for example learn a lot reading Shakespeare that way but there is no justification in the view that the King James written a short while after deserves more respect. (And I don't think it is as good.)

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

skado comments on May 4, 2019:

Taking art and symbolism seriously has fallen out of fashion.

Fernapple replies on May 4, 2019:

Because taking art and symbolsim seriously means, taking a personal interpretation of the art or symbolism and trying to claim that it therefore has more authority than secular ideas. Since although interpretation is really only the thoughts of the individual, it is sanctified by art/religion which are supposed to have priviledged access to truth. Although both are actually vague ways of expressing things and therefore unlikely to be accurate.

Religious fundamentalists and many of today’s atheists share the same approach to texts.

gearl comments on May 4, 2019:

When meanings are not self-evident, meanings can be interpreted to mean whatever the reader wants them to mean.

Fernapple replies on May 4, 2019:

Yes, but while still claiming that the words are writen/inspired by god, and that therefore although they interpreted by them, they still have more authority than the ideas of secular people. A great case of having your cake and eating it.

People always ask why my ex and I broke up and I always say that it’s because I stopped believing ...

Hathacat comments on May 4, 2019:

“I preferred to believe in Whinny the Poo, he’s nicer.” I have actually told people that I cannot belong to a organization whose people have less morals than me.

Fernapple replies on May 4, 2019:

Love that answer. That is also a good answer to the apologists who say that they only believe in it as allegory. If you want a book to use for allegory why not pick a better book. Whinie the Pooh is far better, look at Eeyore who accepts the worst but does not loose his kindness or humanity because of that. The ultimate moral philosopher.

People always ask why my ex and I broke up and I always say that it’s because I stopped believing ...

chazwin comments on May 3, 2019:

You are quite correct. The world would be a better place if the default position was critical skepticism rather than having the licence to believe in whatever shit takes your fancy.

Fernapple replies on May 4, 2019:

Very true, though I would say that the default position is critical skepticism, its just that a lot of people don't know it.

The problem with revenge is that it never evens the score.

brentan comments on May 1, 2019:

This is the idea behind the Orestes in ancient Greece. The myth was that the corpse emitted a miasma that could only be removed by justice, understood as revenge. The Furies symbolised that revenge. The court system was set up to end the constant tit-for-tat revenges. At the end of the story, the ...

Fernapple replies on May 1, 2019:

That takes me back, I learned the story when very young, and that part of the meaning never entered my head then. Thanks.

Why would any modern woman want to follow that religion.

Jolanta comments on May 1, 2019:

And he will be the first to go to that new strip club that has opened in his town. By the way who the hell is Titus?

Fernapple replies on May 1, 2019:

Titus comes after Timothy two.

Given that life in itself is meaningless, what do we have in mind when we talk about the "meaning ...

Fernapple comments on May 1, 2019:

Life does not need meaning to have value, if you understand that life itself has value then that understanding is all the meaning it needs. Since life is all you have it matters not if it has meaning or not, since there is nothing more, and that applies even to the theist, since even if there is...

Fernapple replies on May 1, 2019:

@Matias The value of gold is trade value, which is only one sort of value, not to be confused with any other. If I sit on a desert island all alone and think that a tuft of grass that grows in the sand is beautiful then I give that grass value, the value of appreciation and of being appreciated, and that comes from within and gives value and meaning both to the grass and to my life. PS If I may quote your last post, you wrote. "No, nature is not intrinsically beautiful, because nothing is. Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder."

Ha, Facebook is moving toward "groups". Stop copying us Zuckerberg! ;) [cnn.com]

Cutiebeauty comments on Apr 30, 2019:

I don't use facebook at all... I only use agnostic... 😊

Fernapple replies on May 1, 2019:

Good for you.

Given that life in itself is meaningless, what do we have in mind when we talk about the "meaning ...

WilliamFleming comments on Apr 30, 2019:

The chemical process that we call life has no value IMO. Blind, robotic mechanistic events with no awareness and no free will certainly can’t be valuable, and sure enough, we see that organic bodies live only for awhile and then they die. Sometimes they die en masse. And while they are alive they ...

Fernapple replies on May 1, 2019:

Hi William, you may not remember because it is unimportant but I have in the past disagreed with some of your comments, but I think that this one is great.

What is with this Atheist/Agnostic divide stuff lately.

David1955 comments on Apr 30, 2019:

You know, I agree with you, and up until I joined a couple of years ago I thought agnostics and atheists were comrades together in the same struggle. Then, I joined this community. Quickly I got told by agnostics that theirs was the "more nuanced position"; that atheists were no different from ...

Fernapple replies on Apr 30, 2019:

@David1955 Yes I think it is in at least two of the books, probably The God Delusion for one, he admits to not being able to prove the none existence of god.

What is with this Atheist/Agnostic divide stuff lately.

David1955 comments on Apr 30, 2019:

You know, I agree with you, and up until I joined a couple of years ago I thought agnostics and atheists were comrades together in the same struggle. Then, I joined this community. Quickly I got told by agnostics that theirs was the "more nuanced position"; that atheists were no different from ...

Fernapple replies on Apr 30, 2019:

Though Dawkins has admited to being technically an Agnostic, so they are puttting up a straw-man if they say that.

"Atheism deserves better than the new atheists whose methodology consists of criticizing religion ...

IamNobody comments on Apr 28, 2019:

And yet, that's where we are headed.... All religions will die in the long haul.

Fernapple replies on Apr 29, 2019:

@skado Yes that is it. But the "shift in global world view" does not have to include the supernatural, which is I think what most people who call themselves sceptics including those here reject. Having said that I do not think that you can ever replace the supernatural altogether, but, to use the rape analogy again, it can be made uncommon and pushed to the outer limits of society. Having said which, even that may of course be pie in the sky, since with a global environmental catastophy on the way, the exhaustion of many resources in the next few years and a huge population making a global pandemic almost certain given enough time, we will probably enter a new dark age first. Who knows.

"Atheism deserves better than the new atheists whose methodology consists of criticizing religion ...

IamNobody comments on Apr 28, 2019:

And yet, that's where we are headed.... All religions will die in the long haul.

Fernapple replies on Apr 29, 2019:

@skado Yes but having the biological scafolding for religion does not mean that you have to be religious in the theistic way, religion may fill biological needs but that does not mean that many other things such as philosophy can not fill that same place. You could say that we have the biological framework for rape, (an interest in sex and violence and the genitalia needed ) but that does not mean that we have to be rapists or that we should stop planning for a day, when society is well enough for rape to be ancient history.

"Atheism deserves better than the new atheists whose methodology consists of criticizing religion ...

Fernapple comments on Apr 28, 2019:

This is the usual apologetics line very carefully dressed to look moderate. But just try inserting the word "fascism" into the text where "religion" appears, and then see how it reads. As to bad atheism. Atheism is growing, and when something grows it is bound to be more diverse and embrace more ...

Fernapple replies on Apr 29, 2019:

@Matias I do not equate religion with fascism, I merely suggested a thought experiment with the text. If that is a little difficult I am sorry.

I just wanted to get some other opinions on this.

MsAl comments on Apr 27, 2019:

Yes definately I've also been accused of not being open minded because I refuse to agree with someone's ass backwards ideas, usually religious, racist or astrological in nature. I think "openminded" is just one of those dumb words people throw around to seem better than others.

Fernapple replies on Apr 28, 2019:

@Geoffrey51 Many thanks, I can work with that.

I just wanted to get some other opinions on this.

MsAl comments on Apr 27, 2019:

Yes definately I've also been accused of not being open minded because I refuse to agree with someone's ass backwards ideas, usually religious, racist or astrological in nature. I think "openminded" is just one of those dumb words people throw around to seem better than others.

Fernapple replies on Apr 28, 2019:

@Geoffrey51 Thank you it is always interesting to chase these quotes back in time towards the original. I have been spending a bit of time on trying to find the earliest use of the term "village atheist" but can not get very far to date.

I just wanted to get some other opinions on this.

MsAl comments on Apr 27, 2019:

Yes definately I've also been accused of not being open minded because I refuse to agree with someone's ass backwards ideas, usually religious, racist or astrological in nature. I think "openminded" is just one of those dumb words people throw around to seem better than others.

Fernapple replies on Apr 27, 2019:

R. Dawkins said. "If you are too open minded your brains fall out."

Here is a science podcast that talks about Krill that I really liked so I thought I would share it ...

Fernapple comments on Apr 27, 2019:

It looks more like an advert for a book. May be a good book but I expect real content in a link.

Fernapple replies on Apr 27, 2019:

@GuyKeith Thanks.

Do scientific and religious explanations necessarily contradict each other?

Fernapple comments on Apr 24, 2019:

S J. Gould said that religion and science can easily get along because they operate in different realms, but that is only true if both agree to stay their own side of the fence. Generally science does that, but of course religion does not.

Fernapple replies on Apr 25, 2019:

@TheAstroChuck Yes I think that there is bound to be some overlap, life is not that neat.

Business took me to Wrest Park in Bedfordshire this week, where they are restoring a Victorian ...

Alvinsmama comments on Apr 24, 2019:

That is absolutely beautiful. I wonder how old it is.

Fernapple replies on Apr 25, 2019:

A folly is a building made for fun serving no useful purpose, usually in a garden, and Victorian would be built in the life of queen Victoria, ie before 1901.

Business took me to Wrest Park in Bedfordshire this week, where they are restoring a Victorian ...

Rustee comments on Apr 24, 2019:

What is "a Victorian folly"?!?

Fernapple replies on Apr 25, 2019:

A folly is a building made for fun serving no useful purpose, usually in a garden, and Victorian would be built in the life of queen Victoria, ie before 1901.

Do scientific and religious explanations necessarily contradict each other?

Fernapple comments on Apr 24, 2019:

S J. Gould said that religion and science can easily get along because they operate in different realms, but that is only true if both agree to stay their own side of the fence. Generally science does that, but of course religion does not.

Fernapple replies on Apr 24, 2019:

@skado That is certainly true, the fence idea only really works with Gould's two realms theory.

Business took me to Wrest Park in Bedfordshire this week, where they are restoring a Victorian ...

Allamanda comments on Apr 24, 2019:

my home county! so nice to see.

Fernapple replies on Apr 24, 2019:

The park is next to the very pretty village of Silsoe. It looks like it has been neglected for a long time, but English Heritage are now starting to take it in hand and who knows what it will be like in a few years.

Bob Dutko's Seventh and Eighth Proof for God's Existence Refuted.

Fernapple comments on Apr 20, 2019:

Even if science/history did prove parts of the bible true, that would still leave huge amounts that are false, which would only prove that it was not written by god or at the dictate of god.

Fernapple replies on Apr 22, 2019:

@johnprytz Its a close call but if I were a betting man I would put money on Gone With The Wind being the more accurate. LOL

Tucked away in the far corner of one of my rockeries, it’s a bit dry and shaded but these seem to ...

Redheadedgammy comments on Apr 17, 2019:

Are the pink ones Columbine? The White flowers are so pretty, what are they?

Fernapple replies on Apr 17, 2019:

@Lavergne Yes I have that too, it is another one which sometimes get talked ill of, because it spreads, sometimes I wonder if people have forgoten how to use a trowel, it is but a little trouble with something that spreads moderately, especially when they are so beautiful. Many people think nothing of going to the trouble to put staw and glass over tender things, what therefore is the cost of a little digging for someting equally lovely.

Tucked away in the far corner of one of my rockeries, it’s a bit dry and shaded but these seem to ...

Redheadedgammy comments on Apr 17, 2019:

Are the pink ones Columbine? The White flowers are so pretty, what are they?

Fernapple replies on Apr 17, 2019:

The white is Cerastium tormentosum or Snow In Summer. Some people say it is invasive, but in my garden it spreads but would not be a problem except if kept with tiny alpines.

I love butterfly gardening <3 <3 Red Admiral (Vanessa atalantis)

MikeInBatonRouge comments on Apr 17, 2019:

Beautiful! I am just now trying to get a butterfly garden going. Unfortunately, all the milkweed, butterfly weed, cone flowers, and stoke's asters I have planted are still tiny seedlings. It can't come fast enough, but I am trying to enjoy the process. I am learning more and more about flowering...

Fernapple replies on Apr 17, 2019:

They are all quick growing things don't worry.

A couple more of Madeira, the first shows rocks off the "Pan Handle" and the second just to show how...

ToolGuy comments on Apr 15, 2019:

Wow. Lovely scenes and good photography.

Fernapple replies on Apr 15, 2019:

Thank you.

A couple more of Madeira, the first shows rocks off the "Pan Handle" and the second just to show how...

VertLyfe comments on Apr 15, 2019:

I want to go there so bad.

Fernapple replies on Apr 15, 2019:

Its a bucket list place alright.

A couple more of Madeira, the first shows rocks off the "Pan Handle" and the second just to show how...

Lincoln55 comments on Apr 15, 2019:

Now that is a waterfall. beautiful.

Fernapple replies on Apr 15, 2019:

Yes, though I think it is one which is only there after rains, there was a big storm the night before.

Madeira.

dede18 comments on Apr 15, 2019:

fascinating! I'm a geology nut and appreciate the explanation very much ... wish I could go walk around there!

Fernapple replies on Apr 15, 2019:

@dede18 I added a couple more of Madeira and its geology that may interest you, on another post.

Madeira.

Cast1es comments on Apr 15, 2019:

Interesting . I thought at first of the great wall of China .

Fernapple replies on Apr 15, 2019:

It gives that image even more in life.

Madeira.

dede18 comments on Apr 15, 2019:

fascinating! I'm a geology nut and appreciate the explanation very much ... wish I could go walk around there!

Fernapple replies on Apr 15, 2019:

It is very easy, the whole island is very beautiful, and geologically wonderful, if perhaps a little over developed in parts. But where I took this photo is only a couple of hundred yards from the observatory, which can be reached by bus.

Forgot the name of this Beijing park but it’s local to where I’m living

LB67 comments on Apr 15, 2019:

Photo one is my favorite. I have noticed that in many of your photos of this area, the skies are grey. Is this an average thing, or a time of day/ year thing?

Fernapple replies on Apr 15, 2019:

I think it may be the famous Beijing pollution.

I've noticed that Pro-lifers love to invoke the Commandment "thu shalt not kill", taken from the ...

BillF comments on Apr 14, 2019:

I believe it was Elizabeth Cady Staton who commented on the fact the bible always says what the person wants it to, or something close to that. they pick and chose what they want to believe and will condem you to hell for disagreeing with them. A pox on all of them!

Fernapple replies on Apr 14, 2019:

And pick and choose something different tommorow if that suits them then, But they have god on their side, so it must be true.

My daughter,12, asked if she could go to church with a friend who invited her tomorrow.

Count_Viceroy comments on Apr 14, 2019:

Getting a few hours alone on a Sunday morning is worth it

Fernapple replies on Apr 14, 2019:

Nice to know that someone can be relied on to always put their own self interest first. LOL

Is there a place or places that you have been to, which are on your bucket list to go back to, even ...

Allamanda comments on Apr 14, 2019:

yes, I really want to go back to both St Helena and the Cape Verde islands, the first 2 places I went to when I 'ran away' age 18 on a sailboat, leaving apartheid South Africa. I have been back to the Cape Verdes actually but visited 3 different islands to the first 2. I also want to go back to ...

Fernapple replies on Apr 14, 2019:

Thank you that is just the sort of story I was looking for. The first two seemed quite strange until I got to sailboat from South Africa, then it became plain.

Is there a place or places that you have been to, which are on your bucket list to go back to, even ...

Swanky comments on Apr 14, 2019:

I would love to return to the southeast coast of India called Chennai. In 2003, I attended a women's rights conference in New Delhi and froze my ass off. I had a week remaining after the conference,and I consulted with a travel agent to put me on a plane to somewhere where it's warm. Chennai and ...

Fernapple replies on Apr 14, 2019:

That sounds lovely, thank you.

The man who has begun to live more seriously within begins to live more simply without.

MojoDave comments on Apr 13, 2019:

Write drunk, edit sober. E. Hemingway

Fernapple replies on Apr 14, 2019:

Oh how I wish, that some on this site (including me ) could remember the edit bit.

I would like to address the AMERICAN DREAM! There is no american dream, it was an extreme economic ...

Fernapple comments on Apr 13, 2019:

While I mainly agree with you, the term, "American Dream" predates that. Here's Wikipedia. The term "American Dream" was apparently invented in 1931 by historian James Truslow Adams; he was referring to "That dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for every man, with ...

Fernapple replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@aahouck49 Ps James Truslow Adams was a historian of some importance certainly not an economist, and very difficult to confuse with John Adams if that is who you are thinking of. He first used the "American Dream" in his book The Epic of America first published in 1931. He is usually credited with the phrase though of course there could be earlier.

I would like to address the AMERICAN DREAM! There is no american dream, it was an extreme economic ...

Fernapple comments on Apr 13, 2019:

While I mainly agree with you, the term, "American Dream" predates that. Here's Wikipedia. The term "American Dream" was apparently invented in 1931 by historian James Truslow Adams; he was referring to "That dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for every man, with ...

Fernapple replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@aahouck49 I am happy to do reseach on anything where needed, but I would have thought that on something as trivial as the origin of a quote, Wikipedia would be more than good enough. And can you please explain what the rest of this has to do with my comment.

Are human rights universal or linked to a particular culture? -

Fernapple comments on Apr 13, 2019:

When people use the rights word, what they usually mean is that certain values are thought by them to be beyond debate, since I do not believe that anything is ever beyond debate, I find it hard to take that without at least a qualification or two. If there is a universal discovered morality ...

Fernapple replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@Matias No it will just be a different set of "rights" perhaps by some other name, such as the freedoms from capitalist oppression or whatever they choose to call them. But the idea of objective morality however fake, and of the state as the provider of such is too useful as propaganda to be abandoned ever.

I just posted a sunset picture here.

Fernapple comments on Apr 13, 2019:

The "My Groups" button keeps coming and going too, part of the fun of this site is that I think that the servers sit on the edge of the Bermuda Triangle, strange things happen, and sometimes even large objects disappear, only to pop back again in an old dated form when you had thought they were gone...

Fernapple replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@ToolGuy Could be.

What really turns people on (Explained by science) [youtube.com]

LetzGetReal comments on Apr 12, 2019:

Pets are chick magnets, lol, being kind to them, friends and family as well. Scents in terms of a natural scent, I concur. Light or none of colognes. The worst smell is strong cologne over strong, B.O. I like brown eyes, personally as this is opposite of my father, ;) Blue eyes did stand ...

Fernapple replies on Apr 13, 2019:

Agree about the presenter, I am a hetro male but could listen to him for ages.

the quaintest pub in Chislehurst, Kent, UK, ?

Amisja comments on Apr 12, 2019:

Theres tons of pubs like this here.

Fernapple replies on Apr 13, 2019:

@magicwatch Yes, but Amisja lives in that funny strip of land between Yorkshire and the Irish Sea.

the quaintest pub in Chislehurst, Kent, UK, ?

Amisja comments on Apr 12, 2019:

Theres tons of pubs like this here.

Fernapple replies on Apr 12, 2019:

I see, taking money from the Lancashire tourist board again are we.

The closed mind of Richard Dawkins

TheAstroChuck comments on Apr 11, 2019:

While Dawkins is often brash and undiplomatic, Dawkins is not closed minded. Grey states: "The theory of evolution by natural selection is treated not as a fallible theory—the best account we have so far of how life emerged and developed—but as an unalterable truth, which has been revealed to...

Fernapple replies on Apr 12, 2019:

@RoadGoddess Perhaps only on this one occasion, to tell the truth he may be the most respected academic in the whole western world, I could google him, but to be honest if he writes such twadle I really don't care.

The closed mind of Richard Dawkins

Count_Viceroy comments on Apr 11, 2019:

What's the criteria for determining what is literal and what is allegorical in the Bible? Don't fault Dawkins for responding to a healthy chunk of Christians who take the Bible literally.

Fernapple replies on Apr 11, 2019:

@Count_Viceroy Very true. Actually using fictional evidence as a basis for your world model is no better however you use it.

The closed mind of Richard Dawkins

CK-One comments on Apr 11, 2019:

There are is a wide spectrum of believers and most are closer to the literal description in the Bible. One cannot blame Dawkins for taking them at their word.

Fernapple replies on Apr 11, 2019:

What relevance to the debate between fundamentalism and science do the others have anyway ?

The closed mind of Richard Dawkins

TheAstroChuck comments on Apr 11, 2019:

While Dawkins is often brash and undiplomatic, Dawkins is not closed minded. Grey states: "The theory of evolution by natural selection is treated not as a fallible theory—the best account we have so far of how life emerged and developed—but as an unalterable truth, which has been revealed to...

Fernapple replies on Apr 11, 2019:

I feel sure having read the article that the journalist has a hidden agenda, because Dawkins has also been very critical of "relativism" especially among pseudo-intellectuals, and I strongly suspect that this is where the writer is coming from, but is not showing his true colours.

The closed mind of Richard Dawkins

Count_Viceroy comments on Apr 11, 2019:

What's the criteria for determining what is literal and what is allegorical in the Bible? Don't fault Dawkins for responding to a healthy chunk of Christians who take the Bible literally.

Fernapple replies on Apr 11, 2019:

What relevance to the debate between fundamentalism and science do the others have anyway ?

The closed mind of Richard Dawkins

brentan comments on Apr 11, 2019:

I think of him as the 'David v Goliath' figure who took on an organisation single-handedly and won. I read two of his books, The Selfish Gene and the The Extended Phenotype, and they are truly wonderful books. No doubt, he will come to be seen as a stepping stone among others who took us forward in ...

Fernapple replies on Apr 11, 2019:

You should also read "Unweaving the Rainbow" for his thoughts on religion and human culture if you can, and "The Blind Watchmaker", is pure fun.

I had just posted that I was disappointed that my tulips were all "greens" this year and no ...

Fernapple comments on Apr 11, 2019:

Lovely pictures. The last one looks like a poppy obviously, could be a Meconopsis or a Papaver, maybe Meconopsis cambrica some times called, Papaver cambrica, the Yellow Welsh Poppy, but don't trust me on that.

Fernapple replies on Apr 11, 2019:

@Lavergne If it is what i thought it was then you will hardly need to propagate, it is nearly a weed.

Yuval Noah Harari: What explains the rise of humans? | TED Talk

JackPedigo comments on Apr 10, 2019:

We think we control this world but in the end it will be the victor. Unfortunately, it is our large and increasing numbers that are conflicting with our collective corporating . We are not talking about tens of thousands but billions and those billions are starting to reduce the planets resources to...

Fernapple replies on Apr 11, 2019:

Our fictional model of the world is not an accurate one matched to reality, because there are large gains in profit and power for some to be made by distorting it. Yet people will still beleive in the model until reality slaps them dead.

OK so this is maths yes but this really does tell you a lot about the world in which we live, and it...

Mitch07102 comments on Apr 10, 2019:

Always remember: 1/2 of the people you meet in a randomly distributed group have an IQ of 100....or less.

Fernapple replies on Apr 11, 2019:

And over 90% of the people you meet have more than the average number of legs.

Yuval Noah Harari: What explains the rise of humans? | TED Talk

WilliamFleming comments on Apr 10, 2019:

It’s a great video which offers pertinent insights about humanity. I enjoyed the humor also. I wonder if the word “fiction” is the correct word to use in connection with mass human cooperation. Take money for example. It is true that a dollar bill has no intrinsic value, but that misses the...

Fernapple replies on Apr 10, 2019:

Yes, but we are only able to communicate concepts because we use a lot of little fictions, i.e. words which are the components of the language used to comunicate them. Each word, (apart from to a degree a few like cough or bang which do sound like the thing they represent) is itself a little fiction. All human culture uses fictions to model things, but that does not affect the reality of those things, only the way we model them. Just as our individual brains, use fictions in turn, to model the world according to the information gathered from our senses. For example there is no such thing as the colour green, it is just a symbol our brains use to represent things which reflect only certain waves of light in the middle of the visible spectrum. And so the letters D, O, and G, are used to represent our four legged friend, but it is a complet fiction that the three letters have anything to do with canines, in fact if you turn them around then, GOD ! Yet of course the real danger is that, since our cultures are at second hand from reality, not locked into objective truth but just fictional models, then it is much easy for people to bend models to their will than realities. I can turn dog into god just by typing, and back again, but I can also create a Dog God, just as easily and then tell people it is true, especially if those people make the mistake of thinking that language, because it is hallowed by tradition, contains truth in itself, which many people do.

The Snakes Head Fritillaria, Fritillaria meleagris, also known as the dice box, are coming into ...

Cast1es comments on Apr 10, 2019:

Don't think I've seen those before .

Fernapple replies on Apr 10, 2019:

Realy good spring bulbs, should be available in most countries.

The Snakes Head Fritillaria, Fritillaria meleagris, also known as the dice box, are coming into ...

MikeInBatonRouge comments on Apr 10, 2019:

Sounds like a kind of butterfly we have here.

Fernapple replies on Apr 10, 2019:

Yes it does, it is said that the name means dice or dice box, both names may come from the same root.

Yuval Noah Harari: What explains the rise of humans? | TED Talk

Novelty comments on Apr 9, 2019:

I think other animals make up stories of their own, we've all seen dogs dreaming and moving in their sleep, so they have their stories they just can't express them.

Fernapple replies on Apr 10, 2019:

Yes but dogs don't have abstract language which they can use to infect others.

Ever had the experience of stumbling across something really significant while just playing with ...

Fernapple comments on Apr 9, 2019:

Well that is a bit of a letdown, so what was the idea then?

Fernapple replies on Apr 10, 2019:

@wordywalt Good idea, well worth quoting again, thank you. On the last subject, I think as well that American interventions were doomed to failure due to short termism as well, it takes fifty years to win a war, to change hearts and minds, and yes to get societies on the way to nation states building industries and welfare systems, quick campains intended to impress voters at home will never work.

Seriously, guys, this is very important advice...

ProudMerrie comments on Apr 8, 2019:

Dave Barry said you should never ask a woman if she's pregnant unless you see the head emerging.

Fernapple replies on Apr 9, 2019:

That's like the old first aid advice. " You can never assume someone is dead until, either a doctor tells you so, or you can see daylight all the way acroos betwen the head and the shoulders."

Does anyone recognize this plant. It's flowering for the first time.

Fernapple comments on Apr 9, 2019:

Tradescantia.

Fernapple replies on Apr 9, 2019:

@CeliaVL It is the purple form do you know the name of the cultivar ?

A months worth of exposures of phases of the moon.

Tomfoolery33 comments on Apr 9, 2019:

Did you take these?

Fernapple replies on Apr 9, 2019:

@MsDee Sometimes called the Hogarth curve or the curve of beauty I think. Wonderfull clear skys someone must have.

The "three natures" of Homo sapiens - - - Our first nature consists of innate feelings, ...

Fernapple comments on Apr 9, 2019:

I think that that seems very true, and should make a good read. Although I would think that religion belongs in second nature not first, the only way in which religion stems from the first nature is because of our much more generalized trend to see false positives in preference to false negatives, ...

Fernapple replies on Apr 9, 2019:

@Matias Yes , you said religion in your post, so I though I would provide an example of one of the sources of religiosity.

Does anyone recognize this plant. It's flowering for the first time.

Fernapple comments on Apr 9, 2019:

Tradescantia.

Fernapple replies on Apr 9, 2019:

@OwlInASack It is a large genus but I think this is Tradescantia zebrina, though not certain, sometimes known as Inch Plant. named after John Tradescant, the seventeenth century botanist.

A few hours of cold & wet spring clean-up, weeding and spreading wood chips all comes into ...

Fernapple comments on Apr 8, 2019:

Have you ever eaten them, or are they for decoration ?

Fernapple replies on Apr 8, 2019:

@tinkercreek Great, ferns are my favourite plants too.

Has there been such a thing as "moral progress" in the history of mankind?

Fernapple comments on Apr 7, 2019:

I think that there are two questions here not one, since by moral progress do you mean, are humans getting better at following moral codes, or are we developing better moral codes. If it is the first, then no, because that is about human nature which only changes on evolutionary time scales, and...

Fernapple replies on Apr 8, 2019:

@Matias Yes you may call them norms or values if you wish, but the difference is that "codes" ,implies something coming from culture as oppossed to something coming from our evolved nature, which was the distinction I was was making, but the difference is small so I am happy with those. And yes, to your second point that is a very good summing of what I meant by subjective.