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Critical Thinking Skills: What are They and How Do I Get Them? - Brights Bulletin, Thinker Academy
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 24, 2018:
No matter how much critical thinking is being done, at the end of the day people will still disagree. That might be because no one really knows the answer. We need to be careful about thinking that our opinions are the correct ones because WE are the ones who use critical thinking, while our ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@pnfullifidian Whew! I was expecting a verbal drubbing but you have made a reasonable and polite response, one that I agree with.
Almost everyone knows that temperatures have been rising and that human burning of fossil fuels is at least partly responsible. Dr. Roy Spencer pegs the rise at 0.13C/decade,(lower atmosphere from satellite measurements) and he is not very concerned. I am not very concerned at this point but that could change in the future.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 24, 2018:
No matter how much critical thinking is being done, at the end of the day people will still disagree. That might be because no one really knows the answer. We need to be careful about thinking that our opinions are the correct ones because WE are the ones who use critical thinking, while our ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@pnfullifidian Whew! I was expecting a verbal drubbing but you have made a reasonable and polite response, one that I agree with.
Almost everyone knows that temperatures have been rising and that human burning of fossil fuels is at least partly responsible. Dr. Roy Spencer pegs the rise at 0.13C/decade,(lower atmosphere from satellite measurements) and he is not very concerned. I am not very concerned at this point but that could change in the future.
Critical Thinking Skills: What are They and How Do I Get Them? - Brights Bulletin, Thinker Academy
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 24, 2018:
No matter how much critical thinking is being done, at the end of the day people will still disagree. That might be because no one really knows the answer. We need to be careful about thinking that our opinions are the correct ones because WE are the ones who use critical thinking, while our ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@RoadGoddess Apply critical analysis and you learn that the 97% figure is suspect. A closer number might be 52%.
https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/BAMS-D-13-00091.1
No matter what the figure is, scientists are not unanimous about the cause of the current warming trend, whether the trend will continue, or whether drastic, immediate, and expensive action is justified.
In 1900 most physicists believed in the aether theory, but today very few do. Taking a vote is not the way to determine truth.
I do not see enough evidence for man-made climate change to make me believe that drastic action is needed, or that such action would even be effective. I will defer judgment.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 24, 2018:
No matter how much critical thinking is being done, at the end of the day people will still disagree. That might be because no one really knows the answer. We need to be careful about thinking that our opinions are the correct ones because WE are the ones who use critical thinking, while our ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@RoadGoddess Apply critical analysis and you learn that the 97% figure is suspect. A closer number might be 52%.
https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/BAMS-D-13-00091.1
No matter what the figure is, scientists are not unanimous about the cause of the current warming trend, whether the trend will continue, or whether drastic, immediate, and expensive action is justified.
In 1900 most physicists believed in the aether theory, but today very few do. Taking a vote is not the way to determine truth.
I do not see enough evidence for man-made climate change to make me believe that drastic action is needed, or that such action would even be effective. I will defer judgment.
Critical Thinking Skills: What are They and How Do I Get Them? - Brights Bulletin, Thinker Academy
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 24, 2018:
No matter how much critical thinking is being done, at the end of the day people will still disagree. That might be because no one really knows the answer. We need to be careful about thinking that our opinions are the correct ones because WE are the ones who use critical thinking, while our ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@RoadGoddess There are various opinions about the quantum gravity loop theory of quantum physics. Is loop theory then not science?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 24, 2018:
No matter how much critical thinking is being done, at the end of the day people will still disagree. That might be because no one really knows the answer. We need to be careful about thinking that our opinions are the correct ones because WE are the ones who use critical thinking, while our ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@RoadGoddess There are various opinions about the quantum gravity loop theory of quantum physics. Is loop theory then not science?
(Edited)Proof that God doesn't exist?
HotAlutiiq comments on Jul 24, 2018:
So you have drawn a correlation between:
Devout thiests and Non vaxers. Fallacious, as nothing I have heard indicates that only the devout are non vaxers.
You have defined the presumption that:
Only clergymen are abusers
Atheists are perfect parents
Atheists have no nuerotic tendencies ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@Beelzebant Don’t feel bad. I once made a mistake. :-)
HotAlutiiq comments on Jul 24, 2018:
So you have drawn a correlation between:
Devout thiests and Non vaxers. Fallacious, as nothing I have heard indicates that only the devout are non vaxers.
You have defined the presumption that:
Only clergymen are abusers
Atheists are perfect parents
Atheists have no nuerotic tendencies ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@Beelzebant Don’t feel bad. I once made a mistake. :-)
Is the universe amoral?
mordant comments on Jul 23, 2018:
The universe is indifferent for the simple reason that it's not conscious.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@mordant Well said. And I am also open to changing my opinion if necessary.
Long live speculation and metaphysics!
So far as immortality, IMO we humans will blink out like a light when we die. It is consciousness itself that is immortal, immortal by default. That consciousness is us collectively. Please don’t ask for proof. :-)
mordant comments on Jul 23, 2018:
The universe is indifferent for the simple reason that it's not conscious.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@mordant Well said. And I am also open to changing my opinion if necessary.
Long live speculation and metaphysics!
So far as immortality, IMO we humans will blink out like a light when we die. It is consciousness itself that is immortal, immortal by default. That consciousness is us collectively. Please don’t ask for proof. :-)
Is the universe amoral?
mordant comments on Jul 23, 2018:
The universe is indifferent for the simple reason that it's not conscious.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@mordant “How would you falsify the claim that the universe is conscious? And for what definition or criteria of "conscious"?
That would be for you to figure out. You are the one who made the statement that the universe is not conscious. I personally don’t see how you are going to prove your assertion, but I am waiting patiently.
That fact that your statement was couched in negative terms means nothing in the world of logic. The idea that you can’t prove a negative is nothing but a silly myth, and if by “here” you speak for this entire forum you are wrong. Technically speaking you made a bald-faced claim. Have you changed your mind or did you just “misspeak”?
You are also making another bald-faced claim: that 100% of available evidence points to consciousness being an emergent property of a living brain. I can easily disprove that statement. BTW I do not claim that the universe is conscious, but I strongly suspect that it is.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-consciousness-universal/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bigthink.com/philip-perry/the-universe-may-be-conscious-prominent-scientists-state.amp
http://jcer.com/index.php/jcj/article/view/565
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/600900
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/mach/amp/ncna772956
mordant comments on Jul 23, 2018:
The universe is indifferent for the simple reason that it's not conscious.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@mordant “How would you falsify the claim that the universe is conscious? And for what definition or criteria of "conscious"?
That would be for you to figure out. You are the one who made the statement that the universe is not conscious. I personally don’t see how you are going to prove your assertion, but I am waiting patiently.
That fact that your statement was couched in negative terms means nothing in the world of logic. The idea that you can’t prove a negative is nothing but a silly myth, and if by “here” you speak for this entire forum you are wrong. Technically speaking you made a bald-faced claim. Have you changed your mind or did you just “misspeak”?
You are also making another bald-faced claim: that 100% of available evidence points to consciousness being an emergent property of a living brain. I can easily disprove that statement. BTW I do not claim that the universe is conscious, but I strongly suspect that it is.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-consciousness-universal/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bigthink.com/philip-perry/the-universe-may-be-conscious-prominent-scientists-state.amp
http://jcer.com/index.php/jcj/article/view/565
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/600900
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/mach/amp/ncna772956
Money is power? True or false?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 24, 2018:
As I see it, money is an accounting system that keeps track of the interchanges between you and society. Assuming you’re not a robber the money you have equals your contributions less the goods and services you used. So yes, interacting with society by trading gives individuals MUCH more power ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@Marine I certainly sympathize with your plight. I’ve also had bad experiences with brokers, but nothing like what you describe.
It’s hard to see how playing the stock market contributes much to society. I see how making and holding investments for the long term is a positive contribution. Sounds like your friend gave very mistaken advice. I hope you have better luck in the future.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 24, 2018:
As I see it, money is an accounting system that keeps track of the interchanges between you and society. Assuming you’re not a robber the money you have equals your contributions less the goods and services you used. So yes, interacting with society by trading gives individuals MUCH more power ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@Marine I certainly sympathize with your plight. I’ve also had bad experiences with brokers, but nothing like what you describe.
It’s hard to see how playing the stock market contributes much to society. I see how making and holding investments for the long term is a positive contribution. Sounds like your friend gave very mistaken advice. I hope you have better luck in the future.
Is the universe amoral?
wordywalt comments on Jul 23, 2018:
The unverse does not have a conscious mind. Therefore, it has no concept such as morality.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@wordywalt But wait, I didn’t make the assertion that the universe is conscious. You made the bald-faced assertion that the universe is NOT conscious. How do you know such a thing with absolute certainty? Evidence please. Proof if you will.
I do LEAN toward the concept of universal consciousness, and yes, there is evidence:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-consciousness-universal/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bigthink.com/philip-perry/the-universe-may-be-conscious-prominent-scientists-state.amp
http://jcer.com/index.php/jcj/article/view/565
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/600900
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/mach/amp/ncna772956
wordywalt comments on Jul 23, 2018:
The unverse does not have a conscious mind. Therefore, it has no concept such as morality.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@wordywalt But wait, I didn’t make the assertion that the universe is conscious. You made the bald-faced assertion that the universe is NOT conscious. How do you know such a thing with absolute certainty? Evidence please. Proof if you will.
I do LEAN toward the concept of universal consciousness, and yes, there is evidence:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-consciousness-universal/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bigthink.com/philip-perry/the-universe-may-be-conscious-prominent-scientists-state.amp
http://jcer.com/index.php/jcj/article/view/565
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/600900
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/mach/amp/ncna772956
(Edited)Proof that God doesn't exist?
DenoPenno comments on Jul 24, 2018:
A good proof that god doesn't exist is all those poor young children dying of cancer. If I'm wrong then why do believers fail to give a good reason for this? Well, nobody knows the mind of god.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
The fact that you dislike the workings of nature has no bearing on the question.
DenoPenno comments on Jul 24, 2018:
A good proof that god doesn't exist is all those poor young children dying of cancer. If I'm wrong then why do believers fail to give a good reason for this? Well, nobody knows the mind of god.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
The fact that you dislike the workings of nature has no bearing on the question.
(Edited)Proof that God doesn't exist?
HotAlutiiq comments on Jul 24, 2018:
So you have drawn a correlation between:
Devout thiests and Non vaxers. Fallacious, as nothing I have heard indicates that only the devout are non vaxers.
You have defined the presumption that:
Only clergymen are abusers
Atheists are perfect parents
Atheists have no nuerotic tendencies ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@Beelzebant “Impact” not a verb? According to my dictionary “impact” can be a verb.
HotAlutiiq comments on Jul 24, 2018:
So you have drawn a correlation between:
Devout thiests and Non vaxers. Fallacious, as nothing I have heard indicates that only the devout are non vaxers.
You have defined the presumption that:
Only clergymen are abusers
Atheists are perfect parents
Atheists have no nuerotic tendencies ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@Beelzebant “Impact” not a verb? According to my dictionary “impact” can be a verb.
Is the universe amoral?
wordywalt comments on Jul 23, 2018:
The unverse does not have a conscious mind. Therefore, it has no concept such as morality.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
What proof do you have for your statement?
wordywalt comments on Jul 23, 2018:
The unverse does not have a conscious mind. Therefore, it has no concept such as morality.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
What proof do you have for your statement?
Is the universe amoral?
mordant comments on Jul 23, 2018:
The universe is indifferent for the simple reason that it's not conscious.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
Do you have testable evidence that the universe is not conscious?
mordant comments on Jul 23, 2018:
The universe is indifferent for the simple reason that it's not conscious.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
Do you have testable evidence that the universe is not conscious?
Is the universe amoral?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 23, 2018:
In the first place, good and bad are not opposites. Everything that exists or happens is “good”. Everything fits properly and happens for reasons. It is all correct and benevolent.
The concept of “bad” is only a mistake in thinking. We assign the “bad” label to things we don’t like,...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@icolanTrue scientists, those possessed of the spirit of science, ponder and discuss questions of the unknown. New ideas spring from intuition, dreams, and just sparks of the imagination. Without that first process there’d be no science, nothing to test. Humans would have no fire, no wheels, no tools, not even stone tools.
Are you calling for all discussion of universal consciousness to cease? Would you have those who entertain such ideas barred from university positions? (which is a very common practice) There is nothing scientific about leaping in to ridicule and debunk new ideas that conflict with your personal world view.
If you are sitting there smugly, thinking that you understand almost everything there is to know about nature you are in for a big shock. Live long enough and you’ll see revolutionary changes.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 23, 2018:
In the first place, good and bad are not opposites. Everything that exists or happens is “good”. Everything fits properly and happens for reasons. It is all correct and benevolent.
The concept of “bad” is only a mistake in thinking. We assign the “bad” label to things we don’t like,...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 24, 2018:
@icolanTrue scientists, those possessed of the spirit of science, ponder and discuss questions of the unknown. New ideas spring from intuition, dreams, and just sparks of the imagination. Without that first process there’d be no science, nothing to test. Humans would have no fire, no wheels, no tools, not even stone tools.
Are you calling for all discussion of universal consciousness to cease? Would you have those who entertain such ideas barred from university positions? (which is a very common practice) There is nothing scientific about leaping in to ridicule and debunk new ideas that conflict with your personal world view.
If you are sitting there smugly, thinking that you understand almost everything there is to know about nature you are in for a big shock. Live long enough and you’ll see revolutionary changes.
Is the universe amoral?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 23, 2018:
In the first place, good and bad are not opposites. Everything that exists or happens is “good”. Everything fits properly and happens for reasons. It is all correct and benevolent.
The concept of “bad” is only a mistake in thinking. We assign the “bad” label to things we don’t like,...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 23, 2018:
@icolan Yes, that kind of good, the kind that is the opposite of bad, is nothing but an arbitrary designation useful for organizing and planning our behaviors. Those things exist only in our minds.
So far as your last question,
Universal Consciousness:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-consciousness-universal/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bigthink.com/philip-perry/the-universe-may-be-conscious-prominent-scientists-state.amp
http://jcer.com/index.php/jcj/article/view/565
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/600900
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/mach/amp/ncna772956
As for holocausts, criminal acts, asteroid strikes, war, disease, etc., they are “bad” from the perspective of a finite set of bodily organisms, but they are all a part of nature, and nature is good by default IMO. I lean toward thinking that our bodies are nothing but robots, unaware and expendable. Universal consciousness likes having a river of organisms with which to interact, but Individual bodies have no value.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 23, 2018:
In the first place, good and bad are not opposites. Everything that exists or happens is “good”. Everything fits properly and happens for reasons. It is all correct and benevolent.
The concept of “bad” is only a mistake in thinking. We assign the “bad” label to things we don’t like,...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 23, 2018:
@icolan Yes, that kind of good, the kind that is the opposite of bad, is nothing but an arbitrary designation useful for organizing and planning our behaviors. Those things exist only in our minds.
So far as your last question,
Universal Consciousness:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-consciousness-universal/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/bigthink.com/philip-perry/the-universe-may-be-conscious-prominent-scientists-state.amp
http://jcer.com/index.php/jcj/article/view/565
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/600900
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/mach/amp/ncna772956
As for holocausts, criminal acts, asteroid strikes, war, disease, etc., they are “bad” from the perspective of a finite set of bodily organisms, but they are all a part of nature, and nature is good by default IMO. I lean toward thinking that our bodies are nothing but robots, unaware and expendable. Universal consciousness likes having a river of organisms with which to interact, but Individual bodies have no value.
Has anyone else experienced Ego Death, if so, what was your biggest take away from it.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 19, 2018:
Was it through yoga meditation? Did you have a teacher?
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 20, 2018:
@HeyHiHullo Thanks so much for sharing this great information!
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 19, 2018:
Was it through yoga meditation? Did you have a teacher?
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 20, 2018:
@HeyHiHullo Thanks so much for sharing this great information!
Beyond Meat Triples Production Footprint - This is HUGE!
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 20, 2018:
I don’t think I’ve had any of those particular products. Are they good? Do they taste like real meat? Are they more expensive?
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 20, 2018:
@SkotlandSkye Thanks!
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 20, 2018:
I don’t think I’ve had any of those particular products. Are they good? Do they taste like real meat? Are they more expensive?
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 20, 2018:
@SkotlandSkye Thanks!
When I was in 1st grade, I was excited to tell my mother about my day at school.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 19, 2018:
So did you just make this up? :-)
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 20, 2018:
@DustinFL Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you. You said you had learned the power of deception.
Just teasing.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 19, 2018:
So did you just make this up? :-)
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 20, 2018:
@DustinFL Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you. You said you had learned the power of deception.
Just teasing.
How many holocausts, and how many genocides have there been since records began
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 19, 2018:
Too many to count: I had no idea.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 19, 2018:
@jacpod We can’t live in perpetual sorrow. Maybe we should just view it as a part of nature—organisms competing against other organisms.
I lean toward thinking that our bodies are just robots, nicely made but unaware and expendable. and that our true and higher selves are immortal by default, existing united as universal consciousness.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 19, 2018:
Too many to count: I had no idea.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 19, 2018:
@jacpod We can’t live in perpetual sorrow. Maybe we should just view it as a part of nature—organisms competing against other organisms.
I lean toward thinking that our bodies are just robots, nicely made but unaware and expendable. and that our true and higher selves are immortal by default, existing united as universal consciousness.
What makes something a religion?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 17, 2018:
My definition: A way of life based on deep awareness and appreciation for the staggering implications of the mystery of existence. That’s what I think is the central core.
If you want a definition that covers all religion you’d have to write a book, or read one already written, such as ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 18, 2018:
@SueZ I’m no expert on Buddhism, but I think that under my personal definition even secular Buddhists are religious because they are following Buddhism as a way of life, and if they meditate, surely they must be filled with awe and appreciation for what is. I suppose you could simply study Buddhist scriptures as philosophy from a detached perspective, but then you wouldn’t really be a Buddhist in my opinion.
I doubt if many on this site would agree with my definition however. Most seem to think of religion as requiring a belief in God. That way, when you reject belief in God you also reject all religion. It is understandable that if you were raised in an authoritarian church and you had the intelligence and courage to break away, that strong feelings might be necessary, and that you would not be open to the idea of a benevolent religion of any kind.
I myself lean toward the idea of universal consciousness, and if you equate that with God, then I am a theist of sorts. Don’t tell anyone. :-)
That William James book is out of copyright, and I believe it is free on Gutenberg Press. “The Perennial Philosophy” was a delight for me to read—it’s very thought provoking, and Huxley was spiritually oriented, even though he described himself as agnostic. He invented the word BTW.
I’m interested in your definition of religion.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 17, 2018:
My definition: A way of life based on deep awareness and appreciation for the staggering implications of the mystery of existence. That’s what I think is the central core.
If you want a definition that covers all religion you’d have to write a book, or read one already written, such as ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 18, 2018:
@SueZ I’m no expert on Buddhism, but I think that under my personal definition even secular Buddhists are religious because they are following Buddhism as a way of life, and if they meditate, surely they must be filled with awe and appreciation for what is. I suppose you could simply study Buddhist scriptures as philosophy from a detached perspective, but then you wouldn’t really be a Buddhist in my opinion.
I doubt if many on this site would agree with my definition however. Most seem to think of religion as requiring a belief in God. That way, when you reject belief in God you also reject all religion. It is understandable that if you were raised in an authoritarian church and you had the intelligence and courage to break away, that strong feelings might be necessary, and that you would not be open to the idea of a benevolent religion of any kind.
I myself lean toward the idea of universal consciousness, and if you equate that with God, then I am a theist of sorts. Don’t tell anyone. :-)
That William James book is out of copyright, and I believe it is free on Gutenberg Press. “The Perennial Philosophy” was a delight for me to read—it’s very thought provoking, and Huxley was spiritually oriented, even though he described himself as agnostic. He invented the word BTW.
I’m interested in your definition of religion.
How can we as a nation accuse Russia, China and numerous other countries of being an aggresser?
Condor5 comments on Jul 17, 2018:
So, do you disbelieve the Intel agencies, as 45 does (regardless of his latest takeback)? Or, would you propose that we deserve what the Russians have been doing, and apparently are continuing to do? I'm not sure I understand the purpose of your question.
Yes, we have been aggressors, no doubt ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 17, 2018:
@myownmind You just nailed it. There is no reason under the sun that we should be enemies of Russia.
We were behind that illegal overthrow of the Ukrainian Government. Now that’s real meddling for you. A few exposed emails before an election? Anyone with that kind of information SHOULD get it out to the voting public. The more information the better. That’s not meddling.
Condor5 comments on Jul 17, 2018:
So, do you disbelieve the Intel agencies, as 45 does (regardless of his latest takeback)? Or, would you propose that we deserve what the Russians have been doing, and apparently are continuing to do? I'm not sure I understand the purpose of your question.
Yes, we have been aggressors, no doubt ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 17, 2018:
@myownmind You just nailed it. There is no reason under the sun that we should be enemies of Russia.
We were behind that illegal overthrow of the Ukrainian Government. Now that’s real meddling for you. A few exposed emails before an election? Anyone with that kind of information SHOULD get it out to the voting public. The more information the better. That’s not meddling.
Did you know there is a scientific institution studying Parapsychological events? [noetic.org]
webbew1 comments on Jul 15, 2018:
That's kind of the whole point of science. Study the unknown and what seems to be the far fetched in order to find out if there might be some validity to it.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 16, 2018:
You are talking about real science. The whole point of crusaders under the banner of science is to throw up a smokescreen to obscure anything that conflicts with their materialistic/reductionist world view.
People go to the website and actually claim that they can’t find the list of publications. Bias?
webbew1 comments on Jul 15, 2018:
That's kind of the whole point of science. Study the unknown and what seems to be the far fetched in order to find out if there might be some validity to it.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 16, 2018:
You are talking about real science. The whole point of crusaders under the banner of science is to throw up a smokescreen to obscure anything that conflicts with their materialistic/reductionist world view.
People go to the website and actually claim that they can’t find the list of publications. Bias?
Did you know there is a scientific institution studying Parapsychological events? [noetic.org]
indirect76 comments on Jul 15, 2018:
What are their findings? Have they published in any scientific journals? Their website isn’t very helpful.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 16, 2018:
Bunches. Did you click on “Publications”?
indirect76 comments on Jul 15, 2018:
What are their findings? Have they published in any scientific journals? Their website isn’t very helpful.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 16, 2018:
Bunches. Did you click on “Publications”?
Did you know there is a scientific institution studying Parapsychological events? [noetic.org]
evidentialist comments on Jul 15, 2018:
If I understood this post correctly, you are promoting IONS (Institute Of Noetic Sciences) as a ... a science based organization and that the studies they conduct are ... um ... scientific. Is that right? In the spirit of that being the case, I give you this from RationalWiki:
:::::::::::::::...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 16, 2018:
Science has not looked into anything, Science is a body of knowledge and a method. Certain individual humans might have “looked into” the research and found no supporting evidence. Other individuals have looked and were persuaded by the evidence. After being persuaded by Dean Radin to actually look at the evidence, even arch-skeptic Carl Sagan said that there was evidence worth study.
evidentialist comments on Jul 15, 2018:
If I understood this post correctly, you are promoting IONS (Institute Of Noetic Sciences) as a ... a science based organization and that the studies they conduct are ... um ... scientific. Is that right? In the spirit of that being the case, I give you this from RationalWiki:
:::::::::::::::...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 16, 2018:
Science has not looked into anything, Science is a body of knowledge and a method. Certain individual humans might have “looked into” the research and found no supporting evidence. Other individuals have looked and were persuaded by the evidence. After being persuaded by Dean Radin to actually look at the evidence, even arch-skeptic Carl Sagan said that there was evidence worth study.
Did you know there is a scientific institution studying Parapsychological events? [noetic.org]
Rufus_Maximus comments on Jul 16, 2018:
Very telling that when you click on the "peer reviewed publication" link it just leads to a landing page that says "this link is designed to be an example".
They *do* appear to know the difference between a hypothesis and a theory, which is a refreshing change in the world of woo, but having a ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 16, 2018:
When I click on “Publications” I learn of 34 published articles.
Rufus_Maximus comments on Jul 16, 2018:
Very telling that when you click on the "peer reviewed publication" link it just leads to a landing page that says "this link is designed to be an example".
They *do* appear to know the difference between a hypothesis and a theory, which is a refreshing change in the world of woo, but having a ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 16, 2018:
When I click on “Publications” I learn of 34 published articles.
As Young Shun Religion, Believers Aging Fast
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 14, 2018:
“Curiously, irreligiosity skewed to the young is most pronounced in Christian countries.”
Maybe that’s because Christianity is the religion that requires people to believe certain things with the promise that such beliefs will get them a ticket to heaven. Put out a lot of untrue garbage and...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 16, 2018:
@Denker my experience is that they do speak of a divine force, God, or Christ Consciousness, and in that sense they are theistic. On the other hand, they do not require any sort of belief, and they have thrown out the basic tenets of traditional Christianity.
The fact that they speak of God does not bother me, because I am open to some concepts of God. Don’t tell anyone. :-)
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 14, 2018:
“Curiously, irreligiosity skewed to the young is most pronounced in Christian countries.”
Maybe that’s because Christianity is the religion that requires people to believe certain things with the promise that such beliefs will get them a ticket to heaven. Put out a lot of untrue garbage and...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 16, 2018:
@Denker my experience is that they do speak of a divine force, God, or Christ Consciousness, and in that sense they are theistic. On the other hand, they do not require any sort of belief, and they have thrown out the basic tenets of traditional Christianity.
The fact that they speak of God does not bother me, because I am open to some concepts of God. Don’t tell anyone. :-)
Free will?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 14, 2018:
You can build a computerized robot that might appear to have free will, but we know it doesn’t. Its actions are determined by built in programming. Its decisions are not decisions at all. Without conscious awareness there is only rote, mechanical response. The response might be a very ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 14, 2018:
@mordant What you are saying about the complexity of software systems sounds correct from my limited perspective, however, I find it impossible to believe that computers will actually have conscious awareness of themselves. I’ve been hearing that conscious computers are just around the corner for most of my life, and so far it hasn’t happened, so I’ll just store that information in a remote place in memory and await further evidence.
Of course that’s not what you said. You said that both computers and humans can make choices but neither has that “some theoretical” free will, in the metaphysical sense. If you are talking about human bodies and minds, then we are in agreement.
Where we differ is that I don’t think deep conscious awareness arises from the firing of neurons in our brains. I think consciousness is primary in reality, and I think that our true collective self is that consciousness.
I have personal evidence that conscious awareness does exist. It is something that I am experiencing at this moment. If I identify myself with that awareness, what I learn is that the body can be controlled—controlled indirectly. The body can be nudged in a desired direction, and if there is no overbearing reason not to, the body will follow the instructions of higher awareness.
That’s my impression anyway.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 14, 2018:
You can build a computerized robot that might appear to have free will, but we know it doesn’t. Its actions are determined by built in programming. Its decisions are not decisions at all. Without conscious awareness there is only rote, mechanical response. The response might be a very ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 14, 2018:
@mordant What you are saying about the complexity of software systems sounds correct from my limited perspective, however, I find it impossible to believe that computers will actually have conscious awareness of themselves. I’ve been hearing that conscious computers are just around the corner for most of my life, and so far it hasn’t happened, so I’ll just store that information in a remote place in memory and await further evidence.
Of course that’s not what you said. You said that both computers and humans can make choices but neither has that “some theoretical” free will, in the metaphysical sense. If you are talking about human bodies and minds, then we are in agreement.
Where we differ is that I don’t think deep conscious awareness arises from the firing of neurons in our brains. I think consciousness is primary in reality, and I think that our true collective self is that consciousness.
I have personal evidence that conscious awareness does exist. It is something that I am experiencing at this moment. If I identify myself with that awareness, what I learn is that the body can be controlled—controlled indirectly. The body can be nudged in a desired direction, and if there is no overbearing reason not to, the body will follow the instructions of higher awareness.
That’s my impression anyway.
Free will?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 14, 2018:
You can build a computerized robot that might appear to have free will, but we know it doesn’t. Its actions are determined by built in programming. Its decisions are not decisions at all. Without conscious awareness there is only rote, mechanical response. The response might be a very ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 14, 2018:
@FatherOfNyx Well, I don’t like the soul word. Who or what is it having the soul? The question in my mind is who or what the heck are we anyway? It is very hard for me to see how the kind of conscious awareness that we enjoy could arise from a mass of neurons. No one so far has explained how such a thing could happen, no matter how many neurons are firing. Of course there is bodily sentience that disappears when we die. You can make a robot with that kind of sentience, but the robot will not have self-awareness. I’m talking about something else.
It seems to me that when we die our mind dies also, along with memories. Our selfhood as separate individual selves was just an illusion anyway. It really never existed.
What I lean toward thinking is that conscious awareness is primary and exists in its own right. This higher consciousness resides in the part of reality that we can not understand with our mater/space/time model. From that true perspective there are no individuals—there’s not me and you—it’s all universal consciousness.
The river of organisms is there for a purpose, but individual bodies are of little concern. At the higher level of reality the concept of time has no meaning. The question of immortality makes no sense.
I freely admit that this is metaphysics—I offer no proof. However, the ideas have been around for millennia. They are in Hindu scriptures for example, and see Donald Hoffman’s “Conscious Realism”.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 14, 2018:
You can build a computerized robot that might appear to have free will, but we know it doesn’t. Its actions are determined by built in programming. Its decisions are not decisions at all. Without conscious awareness there is only rote, mechanical response. The response might be a very ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 14, 2018:
@FatherOfNyx Well, I don’t like the soul word. Who or what is it having the soul? The question in my mind is who or what the heck are we anyway? It is very hard for me to see how the kind of conscious awareness that we enjoy could arise from a mass of neurons. No one so far has explained how such a thing could happen, no matter how many neurons are firing. Of course there is bodily sentience that disappears when we die. You can make a robot with that kind of sentience, but the robot will not have self-awareness. I’m talking about something else.
It seems to me that when we die our mind dies also, along with memories. Our selfhood as separate individual selves was just an illusion anyway. It really never existed.
What I lean toward thinking is that conscious awareness is primary and exists in its own right. This higher consciousness resides in the part of reality that we can not understand with our mater/space/time model. From that true perspective there are no individuals—there’s not me and you—it’s all universal consciousness.
The river of organisms is there for a purpose, but individual bodies are of little concern. At the higher level of reality the concept of time has no meaning. The question of immortality makes no sense.
I freely admit that this is metaphysics—I offer no proof. However, the ideas have been around for millennia. They are in Hindu scriptures for example, and see Donald Hoffman’s “Conscious Realism”.
Most intelligent God
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 14, 2018:
It’s a made-up myth IMO. Logically though, that myth does not invalidate all concepts of God.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 14, 2018:
@Montaigne2018 I’ve never understood why such a thing makes sense. The entire message of Christianity is bogus IMO if looked at critically. There are a lot of people who live a Christian lifestyle in lieu of being a criminal or staying drunk. Maybe the doctrines don’t have to be true or meaningful.
So far as whether God exists, I lean toward Universal Awareness, which is sort of like God I guess. We are all basically ignorant though IMO.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 14, 2018:
It’s a made-up myth IMO. Logically though, that myth does not invalidate all concepts of God.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 14, 2018:
@Montaigne2018 I’ve never understood why such a thing makes sense. The entire message of Christianity is bogus IMO if looked at critically. There are a lot of people who live a Christian lifestyle in lieu of being a criminal or staying drunk. Maybe the doctrines don’t have to be true or meaningful.
So far as whether God exists, I lean toward Universal Awareness, which is sort of like God I guess. We are all basically ignorant though IMO.
What are the articles of clothing you hate to wear but must at certain times?
Shazbott68 comments on Jul 14, 2018:
Yes...of course the bra is a torture unless you are a runner! Then sports bras rule...even stated all bras are not equal.
*the nipple thing *that damn wire and please the hook and eye that snags everything in the dryer!
(Oh...and those throngs. ..wtf...who styled that)
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 14, 2018:
I love bras. I like taking them off.
Shazbott68 comments on Jul 14, 2018:
Yes...of course the bra is a torture unless you are a runner! Then sports bras rule...even stated all bras are not equal.
*the nipple thing *that damn wire and please the hook and eye that snags everything in the dryer!
(Oh...and those throngs. ..wtf...who styled that)
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 14, 2018:
I love bras. I like taking them off.
Human Instinct: Is there such a thing? If so, what is it?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 14, 2018:
Of course we have instinct. Just like the other animals, our bodies come preprogrammed with all sorts of instructions. Back when I was in high school our science books claimed that instinct was for animals only and that humans were above all that. That claim made no sense to me then or now. What it...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 14, 2018:
@AstralSmoke I’m no scientist either. I think the previous generation was sold on Skinner materialism and that our bodies should be understood as machines and that all behavior is learned behavior. Are reflexes supposed to be learned behaviour?
My son could flip himself over on the bed his first day home from the hospital. There wasn’t enough time for him to have learned that, and what would have been the motivation? IMO that was instinctive knowledge that he came with. A new calf can very soon romp around and play—obviously instinctive behavior. A bird dog puppy will automatically point birds from a very early age. Why should humans be that much different from our animal cousins?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 14, 2018:
Of course we have instinct. Just like the other animals, our bodies come preprogrammed with all sorts of instructions. Back when I was in high school our science books claimed that instinct was for animals only and that humans were above all that. That claim made no sense to me then or now. What it...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 14, 2018:
@AstralSmoke I’m no scientist either. I think the previous generation was sold on Skinner materialism and that our bodies should be understood as machines and that all behavior is learned behavior. Are reflexes supposed to be learned behaviour?
My son could flip himself over on the bed his first day home from the hospital. There wasn’t enough time for him to have learned that, and what would have been the motivation? IMO that was instinctive knowledge that he came with. A new calf can very soon romp around and play—obviously instinctive behavior. A bird dog puppy will automatically point birds from a very early age. Why should humans be that much different from our animal cousins?
Human Instinct: Is there such a thing? If so, what is it?
Krish55 comments on Jul 13, 2018:
Fear upon seeing a snake is supposed to be instinctual. Babies have an instinct to suckle the mother's breast. Kids have an instinct to grasp with their hands.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 14, 2018:
@AstralSmoke if your ancestors survived the last ice age in Northern Europe, could it be that the fear of snakes was bred out of them? I’m not much afraid of snakes myself, but I’ve never known a person with African ancestry who was not very leery of snakes.
Krish55 comments on Jul 13, 2018:
Fear upon seeing a snake is supposed to be instinctual. Babies have an instinct to suckle the mother's breast. Kids have an instinct to grasp with their hands.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 14, 2018:
@AstralSmoke if your ancestors survived the last ice age in Northern Europe, could it be that the fear of snakes was bred out of them? I’m not much afraid of snakes myself, but I’ve never known a person with African ancestry who was not very leery of snakes.
The humbling of the atheists: How religion survived the progress of science
"Not so long ago, ...
G0dlessHeathen comments on Jul 9, 2018:
I don't appreciate the tone this has towards atheism. Atheists aren't asserting anything. Atheism isn't a belief that people choose or dont choose. It is simply the lack of belief. If it wasn't for religion dominating the world since the dawn of time we wouldn't even need a label to describe it. ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 10, 2018:
@Paul4747 Unitarianism, New Thought Churches, Quakers require no faith or belief, therefore no evidence is necessary. Think of it as something like art. We don’t need evidence for art. Religion is not a body of knowledge. It is a way of life.
G0dlessHeathen comments on Jul 9, 2018:
I don't appreciate the tone this has towards atheism. Atheists aren't asserting anything. Atheism isn't a belief that people choose or dont choose. It is simply the lack of belief. If it wasn't for religion dominating the world since the dawn of time we wouldn't even need a label to describe it. ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 10, 2018:
@Paul4747 Unitarianism, New Thought Churches, Quakers require no faith or belief, therefore no evidence is necessary. Think of it as something like art. We don’t need evidence for art. Religion is not a body of knowledge. It is a way of life.
What is your 'favorite' Bible story?
MaverickXL comments on Jul 9, 2018:
The Story of Job. How can a loving God can do all this horrible stuff to one man, and then get angry when he rebukes him? It highlighted the hypocrisy of the God narrative to me at an early age.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 10, 2018:
@LimitedLight The Bible is a bunch of myths and allegory mixed in with Jewish history. I never look at it.
I do think however, if not read literally, the story of Job has a pertinent message. When hit by sorrow, there’s something better than to curse God and die. That would be to shine the light of awareness on your true essence, thereby finding joy and sustenance.
MaverickXL comments on Jul 9, 2018:
The Story of Job. How can a loving God can do all this horrible stuff to one man, and then get angry when he rebukes him? It highlighted the hypocrisy of the God narrative to me at an early age.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 10, 2018:
@LimitedLight The Bible is a bunch of myths and allegory mixed in with Jewish history. I never look at it.
I do think however, if not read literally, the story of Job has a pertinent message. When hit by sorrow, there’s something better than to curse God and die. That would be to shine the light of awareness on your true essence, thereby finding joy and sustenance.
The humbling of the atheists: How religion survived the progress of science
"Not so long ago, ...
Geoffrey51 comments on Jul 9, 2018:
Certainly the idea of a personal spirituality seems to be the 'new church' and it can take many forms. If it involves personal communion then it can only be beneficial.
Personally, I don't feel that science should be involved in a conflict arena with religion per se as science, to my mind, is ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 10, 2018:
Beautifully stated, and so true!
Geoffrey51 comments on Jul 9, 2018:
Certainly the idea of a personal spirituality seems to be the 'new church' and it can take many forms. If it involves personal communion then it can only be beneficial.
Personally, I don't feel that science should be involved in a conflict arena with religion per se as science, to my mind, is ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 10, 2018:
Beautifully stated, and so true!
The humbling of the atheists: How religion survived the progress of science
"Not so long ago, ...
G0dlessHeathen comments on Jul 9, 2018:
I don't appreciate the tone this has towards atheism. Atheists aren't asserting anything. Atheism isn't a belief that people choose or dont choose. It is simply the lack of belief. If it wasn't for religion dominating the world since the dawn of time we wouldn't even need a label to describe it. ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 10, 2018:
@Paul4747 I would agree with your second paragraph if you insert “some”, except that it really is an assertion to say that. It is a well supported assertion however.
Where we differ is in your previous comment where you seemed to define religion as belief in unsupported claims. It’s like defining Scots as those who eat oatmeal.
Atheists make all kinds of assertions about their religious opinions. Often they say that they are simply withholding belief and have no burden of proof, but they proceed to argue anyway.
G0dlessHeathen comments on Jul 9, 2018:
I don't appreciate the tone this has towards atheism. Atheists aren't asserting anything. Atheism isn't a belief that people choose or dont choose. It is simply the lack of belief. If it wasn't for religion dominating the world since the dawn of time we wouldn't even need a label to describe it. ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 10, 2018:
@Paul4747 I would agree with your second paragraph if you insert “some”, except that it really is an assertion to say that. It is a well supported assertion however.
Where we differ is in your previous comment where you seemed to define religion as belief in unsupported claims. It’s like defining Scots as those who eat oatmeal.
Atheists make all kinds of assertions about their religious opinions. Often they say that they are simply withholding belief and have no burden of proof, but they proceed to argue anyway.
Can someone explain this to me?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 8, 2018:
Physics, chemistry, and biology do not even address, let alone answer the deep questions of existence. Most of the founders of modern physics were religious in their own ways, so it should be no surprise that about half of scientists today say they believe in God.
What I think is that no one ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 10, 2018:
@Ladislaver I recently read “Reality is not What it Seems” by physicist Carlo Rovelli, who is working on quantum gravity theory. According to Rovelli, time does not exist at all. Space is granular in nature. Particles of matter are not things, but field interactions. Reality is made out of fields. What we see about us is a crude and incomplete symbolic rendition of the quantum gravity field.
Beyond the field model, reality is an abject mystery. There are deep questions not addressed—questions about conscious awareness, free will, the enigma of personal identity.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 8, 2018:
Physics, chemistry, and biology do not even address, let alone answer the deep questions of existence. Most of the founders of modern physics were religious in their own ways, so it should be no surprise that about half of scientists today say they believe in God.
What I think is that no one ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 10, 2018:
@Ladislaver I recently read “Reality is not What it Seems” by physicist Carlo Rovelli, who is working on quantum gravity theory. According to Rovelli, time does not exist at all. Space is granular in nature. Particles of matter are not things, but field interactions. Reality is made out of fields. What we see about us is a crude and incomplete symbolic rendition of the quantum gravity field.
Beyond the field model, reality is an abject mystery. There are deep questions not addressed—questions about conscious awareness, free will, the enigma of personal identity.
What is your 'favorite' Bible story?
MaverickXL comments on Jul 9, 2018:
The Story of Job. How can a loving God can do all this horrible stuff to one man, and then get angry when he rebukes him? It highlighted the hypocrisy of the God narrative to me at an early age.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 9, 2018:
I actually like the story of Job although it is obviously just an allegory. As I see it, Job had a high concept of God. It was impossible for him to “curse God and die” as advised by neighbors. It was not that Job was more moral or more worshipful, rather his deep insight meant that such a shallow attitude was logically impossible. He couldn’t help but abide his pain.
MaverickXL comments on Jul 9, 2018:
The Story of Job. How can a loving God can do all this horrible stuff to one man, and then get angry when he rebukes him? It highlighted the hypocrisy of the God narrative to me at an early age.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 9, 2018:
I actually like the story of Job although it is obviously just an allegory. As I see it, Job had a high concept of God. It was impossible for him to “curse God and die” as advised by neighbors. It was not that Job was more moral or more worshipful, rather his deep insight meant that such a shallow attitude was logically impossible. He couldn’t help but abide his pain.
The humbling of the atheists: How religion survived the progress of science
"Not so long ago, ...
G0dlessHeathen comments on Jul 9, 2018:
I don't appreciate the tone this has towards atheism. Atheists aren't asserting anything. Atheism isn't a belief that people choose or dont choose. It is simply the lack of belief. If it wasn't for religion dominating the world since the dawn of time we wouldn't even need a label to describe it. ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 9, 2018:
You just characterized religion as having belief in unsupported claims. That is an assertion, so you do indeed assert things.
G0dlessHeathen comments on Jul 9, 2018:
I don't appreciate the tone this has towards atheism. Atheists aren't asserting anything. Atheism isn't a belief that people choose or dont choose. It is simply the lack of belief. If it wasn't for religion dominating the world since the dawn of time we wouldn't even need a label to describe it. ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 9, 2018:
You just characterized religion as having belief in unsupported claims. That is an assertion, so you do indeed assert things.
There is a tendency, even in this forum, to attribute anything science cannot at this moment explain...
LadyAlyxandrea comments on Jul 9, 2018:
People here seem so quick to deny the possibility of something simply because it has yet to be understood. If people believe that right now we are at the pinnacle of science and understanding are not going to go very far.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 9, 2018:
@godef An alternative to believing is to be intensely curious and interested in reality and to be open-minded. A courageous person knows she doesn’t have final answers but might lean toward certain metaphysical concepts. The degree of leaning might vary over time.
The not-so-courageous claim to know with 100% confidence, or they totally dismiss the concept. They are rigidly upright over time, with no leaning.
LadyAlyxandrea comments on Jul 9, 2018:
People here seem so quick to deny the possibility of something simply because it has yet to be understood. If people believe that right now we are at the pinnacle of science and understanding are not going to go very far.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 9, 2018:
@godef An alternative to believing is to be intensely curious and interested in reality and to be open-minded. A courageous person knows she doesn’t have final answers but might lean toward certain metaphysical concepts. The degree of leaning might vary over time.
The not-so-courageous claim to know with 100% confidence, or they totally dismiss the concept. They are rigidly upright over time, with no leaning.
Dr Dan Siegel defined the mind as "an embodied and relational process that regulates the flow of ...
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 6, 2018:
My higher, consciously aware self sits calmly, observing the machinations of a body-based mind.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 8, 2018:
@SueZ I agree that you pose a profound thought. Our minds are certainly complex, marvelous systems. But basically what I think is that our brains are tools or instruments that help our bodies survive. Yes, the mind is more than the brain, but the mind can not exist without the brain. Now I am saying this as a rank amateur with no credentials so don’t ask for proof. This is all just my opinion.
I think of the body with it’s brain as something like a very advanced computerized robot, having sentience but no conscious awareness. As I see it, consciousness is primary in reality. It is not me the body that has consciousness as a trait. Rather, consciousness is observing and sometimes directing my body, and all other organisms simultaneously.
The body with its distinctive memory gives me my personal identity as a separate person, but that self is illusory and temporary. My (our) true self is pure consciousness itself.
Thanks for opening a portal for our amazing minds to communicate. BTW, most of my ideas originate from Hindu scriptures and I take no credit. I have published a Kindle short novel called “The Staggering Implications of the Mystery of Existence “ which you might enjoy.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 6, 2018:
My higher, consciously aware self sits calmly, observing the machinations of a body-based mind.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 8, 2018:
@SueZ I agree that you pose a profound thought. Our minds are certainly complex, marvelous systems. But basically what I think is that our brains are tools or instruments that help our bodies survive. Yes, the mind is more than the brain, but the mind can not exist without the brain. Now I am saying this as a rank amateur with no credentials so don’t ask for proof. This is all just my opinion.
I think of the body with it’s brain as something like a very advanced computerized robot, having sentience but no conscious awareness. As I see it, consciousness is primary in reality. It is not me the body that has consciousness as a trait. Rather, consciousness is observing and sometimes directing my body, and all other organisms simultaneously.
The body with its distinctive memory gives me my personal identity as a separate person, but that self is illusory and temporary. My (our) true self is pure consciousness itself.
Thanks for opening a portal for our amazing minds to communicate. BTW, most of my ideas originate from Hindu scriptures and I take no credit. I have published a Kindle short novel called “The Staggering Implications of the Mystery of Existence “ which you might enjoy.
We’re lucky in the UK that we don’t experience the aggressive Christian bullying that seems to ...
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 8, 2018:
Your key word is “seems”. If you go by the media you would think that US churches are perpetually bullying the populace and that things here are dire and out of control and that theocracy is on the way. The media loves to whip up a frenzy, but it’s mostly just fluff IMO. There are a handful of...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 8, 2018:
@Countrywoman I just read the Wikipedia article on the Christian Coalition and I learn that they amount to little or nothing. They have only one lobbyist, and are essentially bankrupt. The sky is not falling.
Lots of unjustified associations are being made. Pollsters might ask people across the country about their religion. In mostly rural regions people will generally name some Protestant Church which has been given the label “evangelical” by somebody. They might never go to church or seldom think about churches but they name the church they grew up with. Rural regions tend to be conservative. There are various reasons for that, but they are not conservative because of their religion. Religion is just part of the overall conservative landscape.
Big city media folks are whipping up a frenzy over nothing. Don’t you remember that Obama ran AGAINST. gay marriage the first time? That liberal California outlawed gay marriage? This crusade against “evangelicals” is going too far IMO.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 8, 2018:
Your key word is “seems”. If you go by the media you would think that US churches are perpetually bullying the populace and that things here are dire and out of control and that theocracy is on the way. The media loves to whip up a frenzy, but it’s mostly just fluff IMO. There are a handful of...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 8, 2018:
@Countrywoman I just read the Wikipedia article on the Christian Coalition and I learn that they amount to little or nothing. They have only one lobbyist, and are essentially bankrupt. The sky is not falling.
Lots of unjustified associations are being made. Pollsters might ask people across the country about their religion. In mostly rural regions people will generally name some Protestant Church which has been given the label “evangelical” by somebody. They might never go to church or seldom think about churches but they name the church they grew up with. Rural regions tend to be conservative. There are various reasons for that, but they are not conservative because of their religion. Religion is just part of the overall conservative landscape.
Big city media folks are whipping up a frenzy over nothing. Don’t you remember that Obama ran AGAINST. gay marriage the first time? That liberal California outlawed gay marriage? This crusade against “evangelicals” is going too far IMO.
What is "promiscuous teleology" ?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 7, 2018:
Interesting perspective. No matter what our emotional needs are, that does not explain away our questions about existence in a strange and eerie reality. Despite what many people say, there is some evidence for a higher intelligence—that which I call universal awareness. My emotional needs are ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 8, 2018:
@Paul4747 I didn’t say anything about seeking. I’m talking about experiencing, awareness, appreciation, gratitude.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 7, 2018:
Interesting perspective. No matter what our emotional needs are, that does not explain away our questions about existence in a strange and eerie reality. Despite what many people say, there is some evidence for a higher intelligence—that which I call universal awareness. My emotional needs are ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 8, 2018:
@Paul4747 I didn’t say anything about seeking. I’m talking about experiencing, awareness, appreciation, gratitude.
What is "promiscuous teleology" ?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 7, 2018:
Interesting perspective. No matter what our emotional needs are, that does not explain away our questions about existence in a strange and eerie reality. Despite what many people say, there is some evidence for a higher intelligence—that which I call universal awareness. My emotional needs are ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 8, 2018:
@Paul4747 Evidence is evidence. Think of a courtroom. You have evidence from experts, circumstantial evidence, eyewitness evidence, etc. You are trying to change the definition of evidence in order to argue for your beliefs.
Argument from authority? It is perfectly reasonable to quote other people. You in fact referred to James Randi. Is it only argument from authority if it’s the other guy doing it? If you want to make the bald-faced declaration that the life work of Dean Radin and many others is phony, then the burden of proof is on YOU sir.
My opinion is that deep conscious awareness of the beauty and majesty of nature along with the overwhelming implications of the mystery of existence lends the keenest of motivation to survive and live well. It’s humanity’s religious impulse, our highest attribute IMO, and that impulse is not lessened or invalidated by the mistakes of religious organizations. It’s not about having answers—no one knows the answers.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 7, 2018:
Interesting perspective. No matter what our emotional needs are, that does not explain away our questions about existence in a strange and eerie reality. Despite what many people say, there is some evidence for a higher intelligence—that which I call universal awareness. My emotional needs are ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 8, 2018:
@Paul4747 Evidence is evidence. Think of a courtroom. You have evidence from experts, circumstantial evidence, eyewitness evidence, etc. You are trying to change the definition of evidence in order to argue for your beliefs.
Argument from authority? It is perfectly reasonable to quote other people. You in fact referred to James Randi. Is it only argument from authority if it’s the other guy doing it? If you want to make the bald-faced declaration that the life work of Dean Radin and many others is phony, then the burden of proof is on YOU sir.
My opinion is that deep conscious awareness of the beauty and majesty of nature along with the overwhelming implications of the mystery of existence lends the keenest of motivation to survive and live well. It’s humanity’s religious impulse, our highest attribute IMO, and that impulse is not lessened or invalidated by the mistakes of religious organizations. It’s not about having answers—no one knows the answers.
What is "promiscuous teleology" ?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 7, 2018:
Interesting perspective. No matter what our emotional needs are, that does not explain away our questions about existence in a strange and eerie reality. Despite what many people say, there is some evidence for a higher intelligence—that which I call universal awareness. My emotional needs are ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 7, 2018:
@Paul4747 There is all kinds of evidence. It might not be evidence useable in a laboratory, but it is evidence nevertheless.
The opinions of such people as Max Planck and Edwin Schrodinger for example are evidence. The opinion of Carl Sagan is evidence. Expert opinions are evidence.
You’ve got researchers like Dean Radin who have spent their careers amassing evidence for supernormal mental powers. Such powers are evidence for the idea of universal awareness. You’ve got Donald Hoffman, a celebrated cognitive scientist with his Conscious Realism theory, which he supports very well. That is evidence.
The very fact that we exist as consciously aware beings is evidence. The fact that there is life, the enigma of free will, the fact that anything exists at all—all these things are evidence to be pondered.
The evidence might not be persuasive to you, but there is evidence and that evidence is at least suggestive to a lot of intelligent people.
That’s not to say that the question is 100% decided because it isn’t. But if you want to contribute to the discussion—if you want to prove the concept wrong—you’ve got to do more than talk about peoples emotional needs.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 7, 2018:
Interesting perspective. No matter what our emotional needs are, that does not explain away our questions about existence in a strange and eerie reality. Despite what many people say, there is some evidence for a higher intelligence—that which I call universal awareness. My emotional needs are ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 7, 2018:
@Paul4747 There is all kinds of evidence. It might not be evidence useable in a laboratory, but it is evidence nevertheless.
The opinions of such people as Max Planck and Edwin Schrodinger for example are evidence. The opinion of Carl Sagan is evidence. Expert opinions are evidence.
You’ve got researchers like Dean Radin who have spent their careers amassing evidence for supernormal mental powers. Such powers are evidence for the idea of universal awareness. You’ve got Donald Hoffman, a celebrated cognitive scientist with his Conscious Realism theory, which he supports very well. That is evidence.
The very fact that we exist as consciously aware beings is evidence. The fact that there is life, the enigma of free will, the fact that anything exists at all—all these things are evidence to be pondered.
The evidence might not be persuasive to you, but there is evidence and that evidence is at least suggestive to a lot of intelligent people.
That’s not to say that the question is 100% decided because it isn’t. But if you want to contribute to the discussion—if you want to prove the concept wrong—you’ve got to do more than talk about peoples emotional needs.
Do sacred sites move you?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 7, 2018:
There are a lot of really beautiful churches. I like to soak up that beauty—experience it without thought or judgment.
Then I like to think about the beautiful people who built those churches and those who attend. I am at odds with the creeds of most of them. I think they are mistaken in some ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 7, 2018:
@jlynn37 So far as creeds go, the basic tenet of Christianity is that Christ died for my sins, and if I believe and repent I will go to heaven when I die. If I don’t I’ll go to hell.
The core essence that I was talking about has to do with awareness, appreciation, and gratitude for the grand mystery of life and our place in reality as consciously aware beings.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 7, 2018:
There are a lot of really beautiful churches. I like to soak up that beauty—experience it without thought or judgment.
Then I like to think about the beautiful people who built those churches and those who attend. I am at odds with the creeds of most of them. I think they are mistaken in some ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 7, 2018:
@jlynn37 So far as creeds go, the basic tenet of Christianity is that Christ died for my sins, and if I believe and repent I will go to heaven when I die. If I don’t I’ll go to hell.
The core essence that I was talking about has to do with awareness, appreciation, and gratitude for the grand mystery of life and our place in reality as consciously aware beings.
You don’t have a right to believe whatever you want to | Aeon Ideas
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 5, 2018:
If a person believes something that he has no right to believe, what should be done with that person?
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 7, 2018:
@rayfunrelax would you put North Korea in that category, where it’s the atheists who are doing the “burning”?
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 5, 2018:
If a person believes something that he has no right to believe, what should be done with that person?
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 7, 2018:
@rayfunrelax would you put North Korea in that category, where it’s the atheists who are doing the “burning”?
"Unlike other inscrutable problems, such as the structure of the atom, the molecular basis of ...
FynTul comments on Jul 6, 2018:
Sorry no link, but from what I've read, around 10 years ago one scientist (and many later supporting) did encephalography testing to confirm that around 7.5 months into pregnancy a babys brain begins to finally form conections between each half, left and right and self awareness begins ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 6, 2018:
I think you have to differentiate between bodily sentience and actual awareness of ones existence. Robots can be equipped with sensors, and they can be programmed to respond to stimuli, but they have no true awareness. My feeling is that our bodies are nothing but robots. Deep conscious awareness of reality is something else. Who is the observer? Who is it that knows? We are caught up in an enigma of titanic proportions.
FynTul comments on Jul 6, 2018:
Sorry no link, but from what I've read, around 10 years ago one scientist (and many later supporting) did encephalography testing to confirm that around 7.5 months into pregnancy a babys brain begins to finally form conections between each half, left and right and self awareness begins ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 6, 2018:
I think you have to differentiate between bodily sentience and actual awareness of ones existence. Robots can be equipped with sensors, and they can be programmed to respond to stimuli, but they have no true awareness. My feeling is that our bodies are nothing but robots. Deep conscious awareness of reality is something else. Who is the observer? Who is it that knows? We are caught up in an enigma of titanic proportions.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 21, 2018:
Evil is just stuff we don’t like. From a higher perspective, it might be that things are as they ought to be and as they must be.
Epicurus had a limited perspective, thinking of God in human terms.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 5, 2018:
@jlynn37 I feel good about that statement. We really don’t know. We have opinions, not knowledge.
There is something inexplicable and awe inspiring about consciousness and deep awareness. The fact that we know we exist gives it all meaning somehow, at least to me.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 21, 2018:
Evil is just stuff we don’t like. From a higher perspective, it might be that things are as they ought to be and as they must be.
Epicurus had a limited perspective, thinking of God in human terms.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 5, 2018:
@jlynn37 I feel good about that statement. We really don’t know. We have opinions, not knowledge.
There is something inexplicable and awe inspiring about consciousness and deep awareness. The fact that we know we exist gives it all meaning somehow, at least to me.
One-Third of Americans Don't Believe 6 Million Jews Were Murdered During the Holocaust
ShuMei2018 comments on Jul 3, 2018:
It is abhorrent to me that someone could be a Holocaust denier. Makes no sense.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 4, 2018:
From the article:
“Jonathan Greenblatt, CEO of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), told Newsweek that the ADL's research shows Americans “overwhelmingly—almost universally,” know the Holocaust happened.”
ShuMei2018 comments on Jul 3, 2018:
It is abhorrent to me that someone could be a Holocaust denier. Makes no sense.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 4, 2018:
From the article:
“Jonathan Greenblatt, CEO of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), told Newsweek that the ADL's research shows Americans “overwhelmingly—almost universally,” know the Holocaust happened.”
The old debate rises again! (or closes again)
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 3, 2018:
The objection I’ve heard from women is that we men tend to splatter all over and create a mess. I get around that problem by using a jar.
It was quite a chore to find one large enough to accommodate my member.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
@RobLawrence Ahem, wide mouth mason jar. :-)
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 3, 2018:
The objection I’ve heard from women is that we men tend to splatter all over and create a mess. I get around that problem by using a jar.
It was quite a chore to find one large enough to accommodate my member.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
@RobLawrence Ahem, wide mouth mason jar. :-)
Things that irritate me.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 3, 2018:
What about male authors who depict women? Do they get it wrong? The reason I ask is that I’ve read many female authors who seem confused or ignorant about masculinity and the male experience.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
@Belrieve Sounds reasonable. I’ve read some women novelists who I thought were right on.
Reminds me of once reading a novel by a Canadian man. Something was wrong with the male characters—I didn’t know what, but it was eerie and disturbing. Later I learned that the guy had transitioned from a woman. Hmm...
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 3, 2018:
What about male authors who depict women? Do they get it wrong? The reason I ask is that I’ve read many female authors who seem confused or ignorant about masculinity and the male experience.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
@Belrieve Sounds reasonable. I’ve read some women novelists who I thought were right on.
Reminds me of once reading a novel by a Canadian man. Something was wrong with the male characters—I didn’t know what, but it was eerie and disturbing. Later I learned that the guy had transitioned from a woman. Hmm...
The old debate rises again! (or closes again)
KKGator comments on Jul 3, 2018:
This is so incredibly easy to settle.
Most toilet seats have LIDS. The biggest reason to put the lid down, BEFORE
flushing, is because millions of microscopic water droplets are sprayed into the air every single time the toilet is flushed. Each droplet contains bacteria.
That bacteria lands ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
A person’s immune system REQUIRES exposure to microorganisms in order to maintain healthy conditioning. Brushing your teeth with a trace of water from the toilet is very healthful IMO.
Having to clean someone else’s urine off the floor and off the rim of the toilet—now that could get old. But I didn’t realize they had indoor plumbing over there in Georgia.
KKGator comments on Jul 3, 2018:
This is so incredibly easy to settle.
Most toilet seats have LIDS. The biggest reason to put the lid down, BEFORE
flushing, is because millions of microscopic water droplets are sprayed into the air every single time the toilet is flushed. Each droplet contains bacteria.
That bacteria lands ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
A person’s immune system REQUIRES exposure to microorganisms in order to maintain healthy conditioning. Brushing your teeth with a trace of water from the toilet is very healthful IMO.
Having to clean someone else’s urine off the floor and off the rim of the toilet—now that could get old. But I didn’t realize they had indoor plumbing over there in Georgia.
Things that irritate me.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 3, 2018:
What about male authors who depict women? Do they get it wrong? The reason I ask is that I’ve read many female authors who seem confused or ignorant about masculinity and the male experience.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
@KKGator Off topic I know, but somewhat related. I’m curious if the typical man misunderstands the basics of femininity.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 3, 2018:
What about male authors who depict women? Do they get it wrong? The reason I ask is that I’ve read many female authors who seem confused or ignorant about masculinity and the male experience.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
@KKGator Off topic I know, but somewhat related. I’m curious if the typical man misunderstands the basics of femininity.
Things that irritate me.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 3, 2018:
If a man is pro-abortion is it ok for him to comment? I need to know this stuff for future reference.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
@Ellatynemouth I support a woman’s right to choose, hoping that the father would have at least some input. My support is based on libertarian principles of individual freedom.
Also, I think that human bodies are mere robots, worth but little individually. Like acorns under an oak tree, they are a dime a dozen. (Do Brits use that expression?)
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 3, 2018:
If a man is pro-abortion is it ok for him to comment? I need to know this stuff for future reference.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
@Ellatynemouth I support a woman’s right to choose, hoping that the father would have at least some input. My support is based on libertarian principles of individual freedom.
Also, I think that human bodies are mere robots, worth but little individually. Like acorns under an oak tree, they are a dime a dozen. (Do Brits use that expression?)
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RELIGION AND MAGIC?
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 3, 2018:
Is religion a complex of culturally prescribed practices? To me that sounds too narrow. That definition leaves out the religion of those who have mystical or religious experiences directly, and it leaves out the religion of people like Einstein, who had a glimmer of something in the universe ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
@Matias Good point. I would change “belief” to “insight”, but maybe I’m too...
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 3, 2018:
Is religion a complex of culturally prescribed practices? To me that sounds too narrow. That definition leaves out the religion of those who have mystical or religious experiences directly, and it leaves out the religion of people like Einstein, who had a glimmer of something in the universe ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
@Matias Good point. I would change “belief” to “insight”, but maybe I’m too...
How the Cyrenaics Invented Hedonism
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 2, 2018:
It seems to me that the natural and default state of a consciously aware entity is supreme joy. If you are looking for pleasure as a way to fill a lack, then that pleasure will be short lived.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
@Hiram ok, I admit to not being well-versed about the philosophy.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 2, 2018:
It seems to me that the natural and default state of a consciously aware entity is supreme joy. If you are looking for pleasure as a way to fill a lack, then that pleasure will be short lived.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 3, 2018:
@Hiram ok, I admit to not being well-versed about the philosophy.
How the Cyrenaics Invented Hedonism
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 2, 2018:
It seems to me that the natural and default state of a consciously aware entity is supreme joy. If you are looking for pleasure as a way to fill a lack, then that pleasure will be short lived.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 2, 2018:
@Hiram I get you point. Yes, joy is also pleasurable. It’s a lasting and serene pleasure. I think that if you try to find pleasure though, you’ll soon wear out that pleasure. I see pleasure as just a bodily emotion, not worth being ones goal in life.
WilliamFleming comments on Jul 2, 2018:
It seems to me that the natural and default state of a consciously aware entity is supreme joy. If you are looking for pleasure as a way to fill a lack, then that pleasure will be short lived.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 2, 2018:
@Hiram I get you point. Yes, joy is also pleasurable. It’s a lasting and serene pleasure. I think that if you try to find pleasure though, you’ll soon wear out that pleasure. I see pleasure as just a bodily emotion, not worth being ones goal in life.
I have recently read the 2014 book “Reality is not What it Seems”, by Carlo Rovelli, an ...
doug6352 comments on Jul 2, 2018:
Is there any experiment that can provide evidence whether Signor Rovelli's ideas are correct or not?
Ideas without empirical evidence are eternally half-baked science. It was Arthur Eddington who make Albert Einstein famous.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 2, 2018:
Chapter nine is entitled “Empirical Confirmations”. There’s this: “...The theory is in its infancy. It’s theoretical apparatus is gaining solidarity, and the fundamental ideas are being clarified; the clues are good, and concrete—confirmed predictions are still missing. The theory has not yet taken its exams.” Various evidence is presented.
doug6352 comments on Jul 2, 2018:
Is there any experiment that can provide evidence whether Signor Rovelli's ideas are correct or not?
Ideas without empirical evidence are eternally half-baked science. It was Arthur Eddington who make Albert Einstein famous.
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 2, 2018:
Chapter nine is entitled “Empirical Confirmations”. There’s this: “...The theory is in its infancy. It’s theoretical apparatus is gaining solidarity, and the fundamental ideas are being clarified; the clues are good, and concrete—confirmed predictions are still missing. The theory has not yet taken its exams.” Various evidence is presented.
I have recently read the 2014 book “Reality is not What it Seems”, by Carlo Rovelli, an ...
Matias comments on Jul 2, 2018:
In the last decades I read some books like this one ("The dancing Wu Li masters" or "Nature loves to hide" and others...) and the message was always: Reality is different from what you think it is. But how is Reality? Just strange. It still is as meaningless as before, no hint of some higher ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 2, 2018:
I agree that nothing is really explained in a basic way, and that there’ll always be mystery. Rovelli talks about that mystery in the last chapter.
So far as practical application and philosophical implications. We’ll have to wait for that. Quantum gravity is not even fully accepted yet. Relativity must not have seemed practical at first but it is now.
Matias comments on Jul 2, 2018:
In the last decades I read some books like this one ("The dancing Wu Li masters" or "Nature loves to hide" and others...) and the message was always: Reality is different from what you think it is. But how is Reality? Just strange. It still is as meaningless as before, no hint of some higher ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 2, 2018:
I agree that nothing is really explained in a basic way, and that there’ll always be mystery. Rovelli talks about that mystery in the last chapter.
So far as practical application and philosophical implications. We’ll have to wait for that. Quantum gravity is not even fully accepted yet. Relativity must not have seemed practical at first but it is now.
I have recently read the 2014 book “Reality is not What it Seems”, by Carlo Rovelli, an ...
Krish55 comments on Jul 2, 2018:
Since we don't operate in that higher field, it's not really relevant to our everyday life is it?
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 2, 2018:
Not really relevant for survival. Animals know nothing of quantum gravity, and most of them do well.
The ideas are fascinating to curious folks, and some day they may be of practical use.
Krish55 comments on Jul 2, 2018:
Since we don't operate in that higher field, it's not really relevant to our everyday life is it?
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 2, 2018:
Not really relevant for survival. Animals know nothing of quantum gravity, and most of them do well.
The ideas are fascinating to curious folks, and some day they may be of practical use.
I joined this site because of the Title, Agnostic.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 30, 2018:
I don’t know if the standard labels tell the whole story. As I see it, if you say either that you believe there is a God or you do not believe there is a God, you are talking about yourself. There is no obligation to prove or even explain statements about yourself. If you state that there is a ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 1, 2018:
@Geoffrey51 Thanks for your support sir.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 30, 2018:
I don’t know if the standard labels tell the whole story. As I see it, if you say either that you believe there is a God or you do not believe there is a God, you are talking about yourself. There is no obligation to prove or even explain statements about yourself. If you state that there is a ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jul 1, 2018:
@Geoffrey51 Thanks for your support sir.
Name calling and cursing at someone is not effective in a healthy debate.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 30, 2018:
Those tactics are rare on this forum, thankfully. Using your real name and location keeps a person civil, and I think that should be the standard for all on-line forums.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
@Hihi Ooh, I hope it wasn’t me that offended you.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 30, 2018:
Those tactics are rare on this forum, thankfully. Using your real name and location keeps a person civil, and I think that should be the standard for all on-line forums.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
@Hihi Ooh, I hope it wasn’t me that offended you.
What is the main reason why you became a non-beliver or a believer of anything spiritual?
chilehead9 comments on Jun 30, 2018:
Because the more I thought about any of those ideas, the more I realized that they were nothing more than desperate attempts to shoehorn real life events into an explanation that is overly simplistic at best, and malicious and counter-reality at worst. In short, "spritualism" or anything "mystical"...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
I’m going to have to disagree about mysticism and spirituality. In my opinion those spring from personal experiences and deep awareness.
Maybe you are talking about church dogma.
chilehead9 comments on Jun 30, 2018:
Because the more I thought about any of those ideas, the more I realized that they were nothing more than desperate attempts to shoehorn real life events into an explanation that is overly simplistic at best, and malicious and counter-reality at worst. In short, "spritualism" or anything "mystical"...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
I’m going to have to disagree about mysticism and spirituality. In my opinion those spring from personal experiences and deep awareness.
Maybe you are talking about church dogma.
The Coming Collapse
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
Fear-mongering at its worst.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
@Dingodog Good Point. If things get like that I’ll start to worry.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
Fear-mongering at its worst.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
@Dingodog Good Point. If things get like that I’ll start to worry.
"The myth of religious violence"
This is the title of a very interesting book by William T.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 29, 2018:
Interesting idea. People who love discord will find one way or another to divide people into “us vs them” and religion is only one of many ways. That alone is not sufficient reason to devalue or falsify religion.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
@GoldenDoll Unitarianism requires no belief and has many atheist members. The Society of Friends requires no belief or faith and promotes only peace and harmony. In general, New Thought groups such as Unity and Centers for Spiritual Living require no belief and do no harm. They promote only peace, harmony and wellbeing. Buddhism does not speak of God, and it helps people in living a joyous life. There are also the religious sentiments of individuals who have religious or mystical experiences and who do not belong to any organized religious group. A prominent example was Albert Einstein:
“Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious.”
So far as belonging on this site, there is no requirement that a person has to be an atheist or agnostic. I do not call myself either because I lean toward the concept of universal consciousness, which could be labeled as God. The deep questions of reality are profound mysteries, out of the venue of humanity, and not explained by any “ism”, certainty not atheism. However, I strongly reject Christianity as presented by traditional churches.
I enjoy this site and I feel st home here because of the many intelligent, courageous and empathetic people who participate. A diversity of opinion is very important for any forum IMO.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 29, 2018:
Interesting idea. People who love discord will find one way or another to divide people into “us vs them” and religion is only one of many ways. That alone is not sufficient reason to devalue or falsify religion.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
@GoldenDoll Unitarianism requires no belief and has many atheist members. The Society of Friends requires no belief or faith and promotes only peace and harmony. In general, New Thought groups such as Unity and Centers for Spiritual Living require no belief and do no harm. They promote only peace, harmony and wellbeing. Buddhism does not speak of God, and it helps people in living a joyous life. There are also the religious sentiments of individuals who have religious or mystical experiences and who do not belong to any organized religious group. A prominent example was Albert Einstein:
“Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious.”
So far as belonging on this site, there is no requirement that a person has to be an atheist or agnostic. I do not call myself either because I lean toward the concept of universal consciousness, which could be labeled as God. The deep questions of reality are profound mysteries, out of the venue of humanity, and not explained by any “ism”, certainty not atheism. However, I strongly reject Christianity as presented by traditional churches.
I enjoy this site and I feel st home here because of the many intelligent, courageous and empathetic people who participate. A diversity of opinion is very important for any forum IMO.
"The myth of religious violence"
This is the title of a very interesting book by William T.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 29, 2018:
Interesting idea. People who love discord will find one way or another to divide people into “us vs them” and religion is only one of many ways. That alone is not sufficient reason to devalue or falsify religion.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
@GoldenDoll I disagree. Dividing people into groups does not invalidate any of the groups.
There are forms of religion that are beneficial, uplifting, and truthful. Some religions require no belief or faith. Also there are many, many people who have religious experiences privately.
You are stereotyping. The religious impulse is is the highest attribute of humanity.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 29, 2018:
Interesting idea. People who love discord will find one way or another to divide people into “us vs them” and religion is only one of many ways. That alone is not sufficient reason to devalue or falsify religion.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
@GoldenDoll I disagree. Dividing people into groups does not invalidate any of the groups.
There are forms of religion that are beneficial, uplifting, and truthful. Some religions require no belief or faith. Also there are many, many people who have religious experiences privately.
You are stereotyping. The religious impulse is is the highest attribute of humanity.
Is Religion an addiction?
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 30, 2018:
Perhaps for some people atheism is an addiction. That little surge of pleasure in thinking that your opinion in the matter is the only correct one correlates with certain neural activity, That proves that atheism is nothing but brain chemistry.(sarcasm)
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
@Castlepaloma Sounds like you and I are on the same wavelength. I actually lean toward the concept of universal awareness, but of course that is just a metaphysical idea and there’s no proof at present.
The most honest attitude IMO is total bewilderment.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 30, 2018:
Perhaps for some people atheism is an addiction. That little surge of pleasure in thinking that your opinion in the matter is the only correct one correlates with certain neural activity, That proves that atheism is nothing but brain chemistry.(sarcasm)
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
@Castlepaloma Sounds like you and I are on the same wavelength. I actually lean toward the concept of universal awareness, but of course that is just a metaphysical idea and there’s no proof at present.
The most honest attitude IMO is total bewilderment.
Is Religion an addiction?
t1nick comments on Jun 29, 2018:
Scientific research has shown that a profound religious experience activates the same centers in the brain as: an orgasm or other sexual stimuli, a drug high, an emotional high, or any other activity that floods the brain with dopamine. It's the addictive portion of the frontal (I believe ) lobe ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
I’m not sold on your last sentence. Which is the cause? Which is the effect? Certain parts of the brain are active when a person enjoys art for example, yet we don’t say that art is nothing but a chemical reaction. And the PLEASURE of sex might be only a bodily reaction, but sex itself is not just a chemical reaction.
t1nick comments on Jun 29, 2018:
Scientific research has shown that a profound religious experience activates the same centers in the brain as: an orgasm or other sexual stimuli, a drug high, an emotional high, or any other activity that floods the brain with dopamine. It's the addictive portion of the frontal (I believe ) lobe ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 30, 2018:
I’m not sold on your last sentence. Which is the cause? Which is the effect? Certain parts of the brain are active when a person enjoys art for example, yet we don’t say that art is nothing but a chemical reaction. And the PLEASURE of sex might be only a bodily reaction, but sex itself is not just a chemical reaction.
Seven reasons why the Internal Combustion Engine is a dead man walking – Tom Raftery's Internet of...
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
LENR (cold fusion) power is just around the corner IMO. Another nail in the coffin of the internal combustion engine. The world is about to change dramatically, and I mean starting this year.
http://www.e-catworld.com/
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 29, 2018:
@PraiseXenu Yes, the prominent journals are staying away. There was recently a LENR summary in the premier physics journal of India I believe.
If this whole thing falls through I’ll be very disappointed.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
LENR (cold fusion) power is just around the corner IMO. Another nail in the coffin of the internal combustion engine. The world is about to change dramatically, and I mean starting this year.
http://www.e-catworld.com/
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 29, 2018:
@PraiseXenu Yes, the prominent journals are staying away. There was recently a LENR summary in the premier physics journal of India I believe.
If this whole thing falls through I’ll be very disappointed.
Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.
DonThiebaut comments on Jun 28, 2018:
I think a big problem with this is that there are two different definitions of 'spiritual' at play here. The 'spiritual' that Sagan appears to be talking about is the sense of strong emotion, the feeling of interconnectedness. The other 'spiritual', that of religious dogma, belief without evidence, ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
Apparently dogmatic religious belief and scientific rigor can live side by side in the same person. As an example there was Georges Lemaitre, a Catholic priest who theorized what is today called the Big Bang.
If you think about it, there is no reason at all that a church person can not use the scientific method in investigating nature. Why would they not be able to do so? In fact, about half of scientists believe in God.
DonThiebaut comments on Jun 28, 2018:
I think a big problem with this is that there are two different definitions of 'spiritual' at play here. The 'spiritual' that Sagan appears to be talking about is the sense of strong emotion, the feeling of interconnectedness. The other 'spiritual', that of religious dogma, belief without evidence, ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
Apparently dogmatic religious belief and scientific rigor can live side by side in the same person. As an example there was Georges Lemaitre, a Catholic priest who theorized what is today called the Big Bang.
If you think about it, there is no reason at all that a church person can not use the scientific method in investigating nature. Why would they not be able to do so? In fact, about half of scientists believe in God.
Seven reasons why the Internal Combustion Engine is a dead man walking – Tom Raftery's Internet of...
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
LENR (cold fusion) power is just around the corner IMO. Another nail in the coffin of the internal combustion engine. The world is about to change dramatically, and I mean starting this year.
http://www.e-catworld.com/
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@PraiseXenu
http://www.currentscience.ac.in/php/feat.php?feature=Special%20Section:%20Low%20Energy%20Nuclear%20Reactions=10094
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/reports/Selected-LENR-Research-Papers.shtml
http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_fusion/Archive_48
That last one is some internal Wikipedia discussions.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
LENR (cold fusion) power is just around the corner IMO. Another nail in the coffin of the internal combustion engine. The world is about to change dramatically, and I mean starting this year.
http://www.e-catworld.com/
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@PraiseXenu
http://www.currentscience.ac.in/php/feat.php?feature=Special%20Section:%20Low%20Energy%20Nuclear%20Reactions=10094
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/reports/Selected-LENR-Research-Papers.shtml
http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cold_fusion/Archive_48
That last one is some internal Wikipedia discussions.
Seven reasons why the Internal Combustion Engine is a dead man walking – Tom Raftery's Internet of...
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
LENR (cold fusion) power is just around the corner IMO. Another nail in the coffin of the internal combustion engine. The world is about to change dramatically, and I mean starting this year.
http://www.e-catworld.com/
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@PraiseXenu Many people know that it’s true. Wikipedia has a policy of debunking anything new and revolutionary.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
LENR (cold fusion) power is just around the corner IMO. Another nail in the coffin of the internal combustion engine. The world is about to change dramatically, and I mean starting this year.
http://www.e-catworld.com/
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@PraiseXenu Many people know that it’s true. Wikipedia has a policy of debunking anything new and revolutionary.
Seven reasons why the Internal Combustion Engine is a dead man walking – Tom Raftery's Internet of...
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
LENR (cold fusion) power is just around the corner IMO. Another nail in the coffin of the internal combustion engine. The world is about to change dramatically, and I mean starting this year.
http://www.e-catworld.com/
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@PraiseXenu I don’t understand how anyone can think it’s not true. It was true in’89 and it’s true today, with numerous government groups and large corporations getting patents. And there is continuous experimentation by universities around the world. Here’s a small sample:
https://e-catworld.com/2018/01/25/a-review-of-u-s-government-lenr-energy-involvement-greg-goble/
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
LENR (cold fusion) power is just around the corner IMO. Another nail in the coffin of the internal combustion engine. The world is about to change dramatically, and I mean starting this year.
http://www.e-catworld.com/
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@PraiseXenu I don’t understand how anyone can think it’s not true. It was true in’89 and it’s true today, with numerous government groups and large corporations getting patents. And there is continuous experimentation by universities around the world. Here’s a small sample:
https://e-catworld.com/2018/01/25/a-review-of-u-s-government-lenr-energy-involvement-greg-goble/
Where do we go from here.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 27, 2018:
I doubt seriously if the Supreme Court does what you predict. Even if it did, the world would not end.
Not all conservatives are religious fanatics. Many conservatives think that the balance of power between the states and the federation should be honored and maintained as prescribed by the US ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@FreethoughtKaty You are not addressing anything that I wrote. What Supreme Court decision are you expecting will take away people’s right to vote?
How far would you go in letting the Supreme Court take over the running of this country? The conservative position is that issues should be decided in the legislature. What do you find wrong about that? Isn’t that what democracy is about, voting?
Under no system can every faction have its own way—its impossible. The responsible course is one of mediation, compromise, and accommodation.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 27, 2018:
I doubt seriously if the Supreme Court does what you predict. Even if it did, the world would not end.
Not all conservatives are religious fanatics. Many conservatives think that the balance of power between the states and the federation should be honored and maintained as prescribed by the US ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@FreethoughtKaty You are not addressing anything that I wrote. What Supreme Court decision are you expecting will take away people’s right to vote?
How far would you go in letting the Supreme Court take over the running of this country? The conservative position is that issues should be decided in the legislature. What do you find wrong about that? Isn’t that what democracy is about, voting?
Under no system can every faction have its own way—its impossible. The responsible course is one of mediation, compromise, and accommodation.
The Coming Collapse
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
Fear-mongering at its worst.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@DaveSchumacher It’s just intuition, however I am an eternal optimist so my intuitions might be off a tad. No meds whatsoever for anything.
Even if a civil disturbance is in the future it makes no sense to blow it out of proportion and fret over lt. No need to be fearful and unhappy over speculation.
If civil unrest occurs, it will blow over eventually.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
Fear-mongering at its worst.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@DaveSchumacher It’s just intuition, however I am an eternal optimist so my intuitions might be off a tad. No meds whatsoever for anything.
Even if a civil disturbance is in the future it makes no sense to blow it out of proportion and fret over lt. No need to be fearful and unhappy over speculation.
If civil unrest occurs, it will blow over eventually.
Am I on the right track?
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
You’d do better to sterilize the women. A single man is capable of impregnating every woman on the globe.
Are you suggesting that polytheism is the correct belief to have? Hmm... Please explain.
If I lean toward the idea of universal consciousness at a 95% confidence level, are you going to ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@Ciravolostone I read it as a joke and was just playing along. :-)
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 28, 2018:
You’d do better to sterilize the women. A single man is capable of impregnating every woman on the globe.
Are you suggesting that polytheism is the correct belief to have? Hmm... Please explain.
If I lean toward the idea of universal consciousness at a 95% confidence level, are you going to ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@Ciravolostone I read it as a joke and was just playing along. :-)
Am I on the right track?
PhitDoctor50 comments on Jun 28, 2018:
No. Just invest in education and the problem will take care of itself. Why do you think the religious right is working so hard to undermine public education?
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@PhitDoctor50 Why would that follow? There’s a Pew poll on line somewhere. Google.
PhitDoctor50 comments on Jun 28, 2018:
No. Just invest in education and the problem will take care of itself. Why do you think the religious right is working so hard to undermine public education?
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@PhitDoctor50 Why would that follow? There’s a Pew poll on line somewhere. Google.
Am I on the right track?
PhitDoctor50 comments on Jun 28, 2018:
No. Just invest in education and the problem will take care of itself. Why do you think the religious right is working so hard to undermine public education?
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@Gatovicolo There is a great variety of philosophy, most of which is in disagreement. I don’t see how laboring over the philosophical opinions of someone else would affect a person’s mystical or religious experiences. Everyone is a potential philosopher.
PhitDoctor50 comments on Jun 28, 2018:
No. Just invest in education and the problem will take care of itself. Why do you think the religious right is working so hard to undermine public education?
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@Gatovicolo There is a great variety of philosophy, most of which is in disagreement. I don’t see how laboring over the philosophical opinions of someone else would affect a person’s mystical or religious experiences. Everyone is a potential philosopher.
Am I on the right track?
PhitDoctor50 comments on Jun 28, 2018:
No. Just invest in education and the problem will take care of itself. Why do you think the religious right is working so hard to undermine public education?
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
Why do half of scientists say they believe in God? Education didn’t turn them into atheists.
PhitDoctor50 comments on Jun 28, 2018:
No. Just invest in education and the problem will take care of itself. Why do you think the religious right is working so hard to undermine public education?
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
Why do half of scientists say they believe in God? Education didn’t turn them into atheists.
Where do we go from here.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 27, 2018:
I doubt seriously if the Supreme Court does what you predict. Even if it did, the world would not end.
Not all conservatives are religious fanatics. Many conservatives think that the balance of power between the states and the federation should be honored and maintained as prescribed by the US ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@Ciravolostone IMO the first two items are social issues not mentioned in the constitution. Those issues should never have been decided by court edict. Those issues should have been addressed either by our elected delegates, by the population at large, or just left to the states.
Even if a future court overturns those two decisions the world will not end for women nor for LBGT’s. People will adapt, and they will campaign for the needed laws rather than do an end run via courts.
So far as voting, the right to vote is one of our basic rights and is protected by the constitution. I really don’t get your statement about Blacks. At no time since Reconstruction have Blacks been forbidden to vote. Requiring picture ID is not the same as forbidding anyone to vote. What decision are you expecting that will deny people the vote?
The sky is not falling.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 27, 2018:
I doubt seriously if the Supreme Court does what you predict. Even if it did, the world would not end.
Not all conservatives are religious fanatics. Many conservatives think that the balance of power between the states and the federation should be honored and maintained as prescribed by the US ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 28, 2018:
@Ciravolostone IMO the first two items are social issues not mentioned in the constitution. Those issues should never have been decided by court edict. Those issues should have been addressed either by our elected delegates, by the population at large, or just left to the states.
Even if a future court overturns those two decisions the world will not end for women nor for LBGT’s. People will adapt, and they will campaign for the needed laws rather than do an end run via courts.
So far as voting, the right to vote is one of our basic rights and is protected by the constitution. I really don’t get your statement about Blacks. At no time since Reconstruction have Blacks been forbidden to vote. Requiring picture ID is not the same as forbidding anyone to vote. What decision are you expecting that will deny people the vote?
The sky is not falling.
Why Atheists are not bound to subjective morality:
Often I see members of religious groups make ...
David_Cooper comments on Jun 27, 2018:
Morality is simply harm management and has no need of evolution or ridiculous gods. All of it is dictated by mathematics. Most children understand this from a younger age than any religious teaching can influence - they are natural fairness meters, and they judge what's fair by how the suffering and...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 27, 2018:
@brentan Maybe it’s a combination of both. I thought that my kids were born with a sense of empathy and good behavior. I guess that might be prejudice on my part.
David_Cooper comments on Jun 27, 2018:
Morality is simply harm management and has no need of evolution or ridiculous gods. All of it is dictated by mathematics. Most children understand this from a younger age than any religious teaching can influence - they are natural fairness meters, and they judge what's fair by how the suffering and...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 27, 2018:
@brentan Maybe it’s a combination of both. I thought that my kids were born with a sense of empathy and good behavior. I guess that might be prejudice on my part.
I happened to see this today and while I don’t know much about multiple personality disorder, it ...
mordant comments on Jun 25, 2018:
DID took a credibility hit with the disgrace of Dr. Wilbur who wrote the book *Sybil*; she apparently fabricated or sensationalized her patient's symptoms. So ... there is potential for woo here, but I wouldn't entirely discount it. I'm happy that brain scans demonstrably differ between actors ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 25, 2018:
@Cadelyn I’m a little bit reluctant to download the book. I hear it’s intense reading, by a research psychiatrist. I’m always getting excited about some book and then wind up disappointed. And it costs a fair amount on Amazon.
mordant comments on Jun 25, 2018:
DID took a credibility hit with the disgrace of Dr. Wilbur who wrote the book *Sybil*; she apparently fabricated or sensationalized her patient's symptoms. So ... there is potential for woo here, but I wouldn't entirely discount it. I'm happy that brain scans demonstrably differ between actors ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 25, 2018:
@Cadelyn I’m a little bit reluctant to download the book. I hear it’s intense reading, by a research psychiatrist. I’m always getting excited about some book and then wind up disappointed. And it costs a fair amount on Amazon.
Why don't you ever hear about demons possessing atheists?
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 24, 2018:
I’ve never thought about that. I think it is the atheists who possess demons.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 25, 2018:
@Legion Crazy alright. I don’t believe in demons. If you don’t think about it the idea won’t have any power over you. There is no sin, no hell, no devil. Think about true things, good things, and your life will be happy.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 24, 2018:
I’ve never thought about that. I think it is the atheists who possess demons.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 25, 2018:
@Legion Crazy alright. I don’t believe in demons. If you don’t think about it the idea won’t have any power over you. There is no sin, no hell, no devil. Think about true things, good things, and your life will be happy.
I happened to see this today and while I don’t know much about multiple personality disorder, it ...
mordant comments on Jun 25, 2018:
DID took a credibility hit with the disgrace of Dr. Wilbur who wrote the book *Sybil*; she apparently fabricated or sensationalized her patient's symptoms. So ... there is potential for woo here, but I wouldn't entirely discount it. I'm happy that brain scans demonstrably differ between actors ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 25, 2018:
One of the authors of the article, Edward Kelly, is coauthor of “Irreducible Mind”, which is said to present evidence for universal consciousness.
mordant comments on Jun 25, 2018:
DID took a credibility hit with the disgrace of Dr. Wilbur who wrote the book *Sybil*; she apparently fabricated or sensationalized her patient's symptoms. So ... there is potential for woo here, but I wouldn't entirely discount it. I'm happy that brain scans demonstrably differ between actors ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 25, 2018:
One of the authors of the article, Edward Kelly, is coauthor of “Irreducible Mind”, which is said to present evidence for universal consciousness.
Why don't you ever hear about demons possessing atheists?
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 24, 2018:
I’ve never thought about that. I think it is the atheists who possess demons.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 25, 2018:
@Legion I don’t follow your logic. Couldn’t a few atheist own demons without all atheists owning them? Besides that, not everyone on this site is an atheist, me for example. And if a person owns a demon or two, why would everything they say be a lie?
It was just a play on words with no serious intent.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 24, 2018:
I’ve never thought about that. I think it is the atheists who possess demons.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 25, 2018:
@Legion I don’t follow your logic. Couldn’t a few atheist own demons without all atheists owning them? Besides that, not everyone on this site is an atheist, me for example. And if a person owns a demon or two, why would everything they say be a lie?
It was just a play on words with no serious intent.
Most admired human being in your lifetime
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 24, 2018:
Dr. Maxie Maultsby Jr.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 24, 2018:
@RobLawrence I know that Dr. Albert Ellis developed Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, which has swept the globe as the premier method for psychological counseling. Dr. Ellis was an atheist and was, at one time, stridently anti-religious. He wrote many books but I have read none of them.
I knew nothing about all this when I was in need, and was given the book, “Help Yourself to Happiness” by Dr. Maultsby. Dr Maultsby contributed heavily to Cognitive Behavior Therapy by expanding on the work of Dr Ellis, and adding to it considerably.
Of course I am biased in favor of Dr. Maultsby. He was a local man from our area who succeeded admirably, and he wrote in a way that was easily understood by those of my ilk.
He taught self-counseling, very important IMO. His book helped me considerably but I realize that it might not be for everyone. Let me say however that you’ll find no mention of God or religion in Dr. Maultsby’s books.
WilliamFleming comments on Jun 24, 2018:
Dr. Maxie Maultsby Jr.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 24, 2018:
@RobLawrence I know that Dr. Albert Ellis developed Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, which has swept the globe as the premier method for psychological counseling. Dr. Ellis was an atheist and was, at one time, stridently anti-religious. He wrote many books but I have read none of them.
I knew nothing about all this when I was in need, and was given the book, “Help Yourself to Happiness” by Dr. Maultsby. Dr Maultsby contributed heavily to Cognitive Behavior Therapy by expanding on the work of Dr Ellis, and adding to it considerably.
Of course I am biased in favor of Dr. Maultsby. He was a local man from our area who succeeded admirably, and he wrote in a way that was easily understood by those of my ilk.
He taught self-counseling, very important IMO. His book helped me considerably but I realize that it might not be for everyone. Let me say however that you’ll find no mention of God or religion in Dr. Maultsby’s books.
It's not science OR religion.
Introverted comments on Jun 23, 2018:
No. I think what you mean is that a person can be both religious and a scientist. That is simply compartmentalisation, not compatibility.
If you follow scientific methods, such as skepticism, insistence on evidence, falsifiability, testing hypotheses, and data, you will never end up with ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
@Introverted “Any time people talk about things "beyond science" - they never say how they know it. If it's "beyond science" - isn't it therefore "beyond our ability to know it" ? And if that's the case, how did you know it?”
It is unfortunate that many religious groups do concoct fairytale worlds, just as you imply. That sort of thinking apparently is of some use for some people, but courageous and intelligent people break away from such groups. IMO it is important not to lump all religion together.
If you study the quotes that I provided you will find no such fairytales. Those eminent scientists produced no set of beliefs to be taken on faith. They are not talking about belief. What they are discussing is outside the province of science. It is not “beyond” science, it is just a subject which is not suitable for scientific inquiry. Think of it as something like art. Art has to be experienced directly. It is not a suitable subject for scientific inquiry.
Over here where I live it is bedtime. I wish you well and a good day.
Introverted comments on Jun 23, 2018:
No. I think what you mean is that a person can be both religious and a scientist. That is simply compartmentalisation, not compatibility.
If you follow scientific methods, such as skepticism, insistence on evidence, falsifiability, testing hypotheses, and data, you will never end up with ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
@Introverted “Any time people talk about things "beyond science" - they never say how they know it. If it's "beyond science" - isn't it therefore "beyond our ability to know it" ? And if that's the case, how did you know it?”
It is unfortunate that many religious groups do concoct fairytale worlds, just as you imply. That sort of thinking apparently is of some use for some people, but courageous and intelligent people break away from such groups. IMO it is important not to lump all religion together.
If you study the quotes that I provided you will find no such fairytales. Those eminent scientists produced no set of beliefs to be taken on faith. They are not talking about belief. What they are discussing is outside the province of science. It is not “beyond” science, it is just a subject which is not suitable for scientific inquiry. Think of it as something like art. Art has to be experienced directly. It is not a suitable subject for scientific inquiry.
Over here where I live it is bedtime. I wish you well and a good day.
It's not science OR religion.
Introverted comments on Jun 23, 2018:
No. I think what you mean is that a person can be both religious and a scientist. That is simply compartmentalisation, not compatibility.
If you follow scientific methods, such as skepticism, insistence on evidence, falsifiability, testing hypotheses, and data, you will never end up with ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
@Introverted Each person that I quoted mentioned either religion, spirituality, or metaphysical speculation. Maybe I’m wrong but it seems safe to me to say that all of them were religious in their own ways. I doubt if any of them had rational beliefs in the dogmas of organized religious groups. There are however, religious groups that require no belief, New Thought groups, Unitarianism, Quakers, etc. Are they not religious? Buddhism does not speak of God. Are Buddhists religious? I don’t think religion should be stereotyped as a single thing, to be ridiculed and mocked.
It’s more than a sense of awe when looking at the stars—much more. There are profound mysteries about reality that are staggering in their implications, which science does not even address, much less explain. The enigma of personal identity is one. We don’t even know who or what we are. Everything that we experience is through our conscious awareness, and the nature of consciousness is a deep mystery.
That is the baby I’m talking about. I think we should focus our attention on the profound miracles of reality.
Introverted comments on Jun 23, 2018:
No. I think what you mean is that a person can be both religious and a scientist. That is simply compartmentalisation, not compatibility.
If you follow scientific methods, such as skepticism, insistence on evidence, falsifiability, testing hypotheses, and data, you will never end up with ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
@Introverted Each person that I quoted mentioned either religion, spirituality, or metaphysical speculation. Maybe I’m wrong but it seems safe to me to say that all of them were religious in their own ways. I doubt if any of them had rational beliefs in the dogmas of organized religious groups. There are however, religious groups that require no belief, New Thought groups, Unitarianism, Quakers, etc. Are they not religious? Buddhism does not speak of God. Are Buddhists religious? I don’t think religion should be stereotyped as a single thing, to be ridiculed and mocked.
It’s more than a sense of awe when looking at the stars—much more. There are profound mysteries about reality that are staggering in their implications, which science does not even address, much less explain. The enigma of personal identity is one. We don’t even know who or what we are. Everything that we experience is through our conscious awareness, and the nature of consciousness is a deep mystery.
That is the baby I’m talking about. I think we should focus our attention on the profound miracles of reality.
It's not science OR religion.
Wallace comments on Jun 23, 2018:
Awww! I lost what I had just written. To summarize it:
In "Where the Conflict Really Lies" (Oxford University Press, 2011) Alvin Plantinga argues that there is a superfician conflict between science and religion but a deep concord between them, and that there is a superficial concord between ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
Thanks. I’m going to look up the Westminster Confession right now!
Wallace comments on Jun 23, 2018:
Awww! I lost what I had just written. To summarize it:
In "Where the Conflict Really Lies" (Oxford University Press, 2011) Alvin Plantinga argues that there is a superfician conflict between science and religion but a deep concord between them, and that there is a superficial concord between ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
Thanks. I’m going to look up the Westminster Confession right now!
It's not science OR religion.
jlynn37 comments on Jun 23, 2018:
Citing statements made by learned individuals is argument from authority. Take it for what it is.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
My only argument is that there’s no conflict between science and the crux of religion, and to support that argument I am giving examples. The opinions quoted are just opinions, not authoritative assertions of fact.
jlynn37 comments on Jun 23, 2018:
Citing statements made by learned individuals is argument from authority. Take it for what it is.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
My only argument is that there’s no conflict between science and the crux of religion, and to support that argument I am giving examples. The opinions quoted are just opinions, not authoritative assertions of fact.
It's not science OR religion.
RPardoe comments on Jun 23, 2018:
The comments above are "God of the Gaps" statements - namely that which science can't explain must be explained by god. They aren't calling on god to explain what is known, only that which is unknown at the time such statements were made.
Yet when science explains the edges of the gaps and ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
@RPardoe Maybe “religious” is the wrong word, however Einstein described himself as religious, and also an atheist. Hmm...
Thanks for that information about Feynman. I deeply admired Feynman.
RPardoe comments on Jun 23, 2018:
The comments above are "God of the Gaps" statements - namely that which science can't explain must be explained by god. They aren't calling on god to explain what is known, only that which is unknown at the time such statements were made.
Yet when science explains the edges of the gaps and ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
@RPardoe Maybe “religious” is the wrong word, however Einstein described himself as religious, and also an atheist. Hmm...
Thanks for that information about Feynman. I deeply admired Feynman.
It's not science OR religion.
Introverted comments on Jun 23, 2018:
No. I think what you mean is that a person can be both religious and a scientist. That is simply compartmentalisation, not compatibility.
If you follow scientific methods, such as skepticism, insistence on evidence, falsifiability, testing hypotheses, and data, you will never end up with ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
I really don’t think that the opinions of those quoted reflect the kind of religion that requires faith or belief. All they reflect are deep reverence and awe for the mysteries of reality. With the possible exception of Planck, there are no definitive assertions there requiring proof.
Science is the best method for testing new ideas, but those ideas have to come from somewhere. Without metaphysical speculation and pondering of the unknown science would not exist. All I am doing in quoting those physicists is to emphasize that there is a form of religion that transcends all human creativity and that we should not throw out the baby with the bath water. By all means throw out church dogma.
Introverted comments on Jun 23, 2018:
No. I think what you mean is that a person can be both religious and a scientist. That is simply compartmentalisation, not compatibility.
If you follow scientific methods, such as skepticism, insistence on evidence, falsifiability, testing hypotheses, and data, you will never end up with ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
I really don’t think that the opinions of those quoted reflect the kind of religion that requires faith or belief. All they reflect are deep reverence and awe for the mysteries of reality. With the possible exception of Planck, there are no definitive assertions there requiring proof.
Science is the best method for testing new ideas, but those ideas have to come from somewhere. Without metaphysical speculation and pondering of the unknown science would not exist. All I am doing in quoting those physicists is to emphasize that there is a form of religion that transcends all human creativity and that we should not throw out the baby with the bath water. By all means throw out church dogma.
It's not science OR religion.
CreativelyMe comments on Jun 23, 2018:
It is not religion if it is "in their own way"...Religion is dogmatic rituals, one size fits all thinking. They can be spiritual and believe in a creator but they cannot go their own way AND be religious.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
@CreativelyMe Maybe “dictate” is too strong a word in some cases. New thought churches for example do have teachings, but so does psychology, physical education, atheism, etc., etc. No one has to believe anything.
Maybe I am wrong to call the opinions of those quoted “religion”, however Einstein described himself as religious. He was a religious atheist. :-)
CreativelyMe comments on Jun 23, 2018:
It is not religion if it is "in their own way"...Religion is dogmatic rituals, one size fits all thinking. They can be spiritual and believe in a creator but they cannot go their own way AND be religious.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
@CreativelyMe Maybe “dictate” is too strong a word in some cases. New thought churches for example do have teachings, but so does psychology, physical education, atheism, etc., etc. No one has to believe anything.
Maybe I am wrong to call the opinions of those quoted “religion”, however Einstein described himself as religious. He was a religious atheist. :-)
It's not science OR religion.
DenoPenno comments on Jun 23, 2018:
Speculation will always exist for those who want to make things up without proof. They do this because they have to know everything, and this in itself is impossible. For Evangelicals they have a book that has everything in it. Well, not really, but they think it does. Ask them and they will explain...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
DenoPenno comments on Jun 23, 2018:
Speculation will always exist for those who want to make things up without proof. They do this because they have to know everything, and this in itself is impossible. For Evangelicals they have a book that has everything in it. Well, not really, but they think it does. Ask them and they will explain...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
It's not science OR religion.
CreativelyMe comments on Jun 23, 2018:
It is not religion if it is "in their own way"...Religion is dogmatic rituals, one size fits all thinking. They can be spiritual and believe in a creator but they cannot go their own way AND be religious.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
Are you saying that Unitarians are not religious? Buddhists? Quakers? None of those require dogmatic beliefs.
CreativelyMe comments on Jun 23, 2018:
It is not religion if it is "in their own way"...Religion is dogmatic rituals, one size fits all thinking. They can be spiritual and believe in a creator but they cannot go their own way AND be religious.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
Are you saying that Unitarians are not religious? Buddhists? Quakers? None of those require dogmatic beliefs.
It's not science OR religion.
Ellatynemouth comments on Jun 23, 2018:
Except if you're a gay person and you find the Westboro Baptist Church picketing outside your front door.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
Are there really cases of that happening? I’ve never heard of such a blatant act by a church. In any event, I am talking here about a very different sort of religion.
Ellatynemouth comments on Jun 23, 2018:
Except if you're a gay person and you find the Westboro Baptist Church picketing outside your front door.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
Are there really cases of that happening? I’ve never heard of such a blatant act by a church. In any event, I am talking here about a very different sort of religion.
It's not science OR religion.
RPardoe comments on Jun 23, 2018:
The comments above are "God of the Gaps" statements - namely that which science can't explain must be explained by god. They aren't calling on god to explain what is known, only that which is unknown at the time such statements were made.
Yet when science explains the edges of the gaps and ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
As I see it, the deeply religious person is busy EXPERIENCING. She is meditating, contemplating, and living each moment in the utmost sense of awe and gratitude. Such a person is too busy to argue about the existence of God. “God” is just a word that no one can define or understand, and those who want to argue just don’t get it—they lack awareness.
I really don’t think the “”God of the Gaps” idea applies to those scientists that I quoted. They well understood the limits of rationality in understanding reality. Richard Feynman, in the introduction to “QED”, the layman’s book which explains the probabilities of various paths of photons, says that we should not ask “why”. He wrote that no one knows why, and may never know. The subject is beyond science. If students ask “why” they are told to shut up and compute.
My purpose in posting those quotes is not to argue for the existence of God, rather just to show that there are ways of being deeply reverent on a personal level that are not in conflict with science. I am calling that reverence “religion”, but if you want to define religion as just dogma presented by authoritarian or fundamentalist churches, then I will have to find another word. But that would mean that Buddhists, for example would not be religious. Hmm...
RPardoe comments on Jun 23, 2018:
The comments above are "God of the Gaps" statements - namely that which science can't explain must be explained by god. They aren't calling on god to explain what is known, only that which is unknown at the time such statements were made.
Yet when science explains the edges of the gaps and ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
As I see it, the deeply religious person is busy EXPERIENCING. She is meditating, contemplating, and living each moment in the utmost sense of awe and gratitude. Such a person is too busy to argue about the existence of God. “God” is just a word that no one can define or understand, and those who want to argue just don’t get it—they lack awareness.
I really don’t think the “”God of the Gaps” idea applies to those scientists that I quoted. They well understood the limits of rationality in understanding reality. Richard Feynman, in the introduction to “QED”, the layman’s book which explains the probabilities of various paths of photons, says that we should not ask “why”. He wrote that no one knows why, and may never know. The subject is beyond science. If students ask “why” they are told to shut up and compute.
My purpose in posting those quotes is not to argue for the existence of God, rather just to show that there are ways of being deeply reverent on a personal level that are not in conflict with science. I am calling that reverence “religion”, but if you want to define religion as just dogma presented by authoritarian or fundamentalist churches, then I will have to find another word. But that would mean that Buddhists, for example would not be religious. Hmm...
It's not science OR religion.
t1nick comments on Jun 22, 2018:
With all due respect. I disagree. They are two very separate and distinct paradigms. In many ways diametrically opposed to one another. For a practicing believer to also be a practicing scientist, a compromise has to be reached. In doing so, in my opinion, you lesson the value of both ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
@Hutch We are not talking about ancient history here. Except for Maxwell the lives of those quoted have overlapped my own. I remember when some of them died. Churches had no more authority fifty or a hundred years ago than they have today. There were many, many atheists then, just as today, and the topic of religion was often discussed.
Scientific knowledge has advanced to some degree but physics has basically been in a quandary for a long time, with a rift between quantum physics and relativity. String theory has not caught on, but theories of quantum gravity seem promising. It makes no difference—the findings of science, while beautiful and valuable, are at heart superficial. There are very deep mysteries about reality that science does not even address, let alone explain.
To look in awe upon those mysteries—for me that is the root and essence of religion.
t1nick comments on Jun 22, 2018:
With all due respect. I disagree. They are two very separate and distinct paradigms. In many ways diametrically opposed to one another. For a practicing believer to also be a practicing scientist, a compromise has to be reached. In doing so, in my opinion, you lesson the value of both ...
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
@Hutch We are not talking about ancient history here. Except for Maxwell the lives of those quoted have overlapped my own. I remember when some of them died. Churches had no more authority fifty or a hundred years ago than they have today. There were many, many atheists then, just as today, and the topic of religion was often discussed.
Scientific knowledge has advanced to some degree but physics has basically been in a quandary for a long time, with a rift between quantum physics and relativity. String theory has not caught on, but theories of quantum gravity seem promising. It makes no difference—the findings of science, while beautiful and valuable, are at heart superficial. There are very deep mysteries about reality that science does not even address, let alone explain.
To look in awe upon those mysteries—for me that is the root and essence of religion.
It's not science OR religion.
Hutch comments on Jun 23, 2018:
If the "religion" is only backed by assertion and offers no validity toward its claims, then they are exclusive by definition.
Religions offer only consolation for those not aware or fear reality.
Science only explains reality.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
I don’t think the kind of assertions made by deeply religious people can be proven in a rational way. It is about awareness, awe, appreciation, gratitude. Each person has to experience those things alone.
Science tries to explain reality, but the explanations are superficial—very beautiful and valuable but not answering the deep questions of existence.
Hutch comments on Jun 23, 2018:
If the "religion" is only backed by assertion and offers no validity toward its claims, then they are exclusive by definition.
Religions offer only consolation for those not aware or fear reality.
Science only explains reality.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
I don’t think the kind of assertions made by deeply religious people can be proven in a rational way. It is about awareness, awe, appreciation, gratitude. Each person has to experience those things alone.
Science tries to explain reality, but the explanations are superficial—very beautiful and valuable but not answering the deep questions of existence.
It's not science OR religion.
OrangeJuice comments on Jun 22, 2018:
The word religion gets misused. Religion is a dogmatic belief system and all the rituals and groupthink that go along with it. Metaphysical speculation, mythological archetypes, spirituality, these are related and overlapping phenomenon but different from religion.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
Perhaps so, but some religious organizations are not all that dogmatic. New Thought churches are generally not dogmatic and require no belief. Unitarianism requires no belief and many atheists are members. The Society of Friends fosters only peace, love, and awareness, and it requires no belief. Buddhism does not speak of God at all, so an atheist would feel at home there I suppose.
Best not to stereotype.
OrangeJuice comments on Jun 22, 2018:
The word religion gets misused. Religion is a dogmatic belief system and all the rituals and groupthink that go along with it. Metaphysical speculation, mythological archetypes, spirituality, these are related and overlapping phenomenon but different from religion.
WilliamFleming replies on Jun 23, 2018:
Perhaps so, but some religious organizations are not all that dogmatic. New Thought churches are generally not dogmatic and require no belief. Unitarianism requires no belief and many atheists are members. The Society of Friends fosters only peace, love, and awareness, and it requires no belief. Buddhism does not speak of God at all, so an atheist would feel at home there I suppose.
Best not to stereotype.
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