Want to know what percentage of the community believes in free will?

Dwight comments on Jan 29, 2018:

There is no supernatural force directing our fate. We are free to chose, do and fail or succeed on our own.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 29, 2018:

@dwight I agree with you. Just because we exist as we do does not mean we don't have the ability to choose. If anything we are uniquely capable of choice. That's why we have opinions based on the same data. Atheism and religion is the ultimate choice in this context. You can choose to believe, or not, regardless of the evidence. That's why religion exists. It's a series of choices. For example I may have the will to be the undisputed ruler of the universe, but I don't have the choice. That's the difference. My will is free. My agency is bound by reality.

Want to know what percentage of the community believes in free will?

ToakReon comments on Jan 29, 2018:

After my silly 'joke' response I thought I'd give a real one. The concept of free will is fundamentally incompatable with the concept of cause and effect. If what you choose to do is the 'effect' of external 'causes' then it is not truly your free choice - if it is not then, by definition, you ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 29, 2018:

I have all the ingredients to bake bread. Any bread I want. What bread will I choose to bake? Easy answer, any kind I want. I don't have to bake bread either. I could make cake, pasta, candy and so on. Yes my having the ability affects weather or not I can bake, but I can. I can choose to bake, or not. That is because of my free will. I have no reason to bake ever. I can buy any bread I want, or not. I don't have the ability to will myself to be more naturally talented, or control the world around me and mine, but I can choose to do things. I would call that free will, regardless of how I arrived there. Not having free will would mean I can't decide anything ever, even given every option.

Today I heard a new Rule. We all know The Golden Rule, right?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 29, 2018:

I've always had a problem with these kinds of proverbs. What if I want someone to kill me? Other way around? I get the point, but I think any behavior can be justified using this kind of logic. I prefer the Hypocratic oath.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 29, 2018:

I think it's more concise to just say "Do no harm." @ellendale is this abortion forced on the woman? Is this abortion a result of a rape? Morality is subjective. In this case it means don't do things to others that you would consider harmful to yourself. In a cohesive society most people agree on what harmful is. If they can not decide on what that is, they should look to science. Sciences like medicine. The oath is a philosophy of ethics based on objectivity.

I saw this Christian named Zig Ziglar post this on Facebook: be yourself, don't be someone you are ...

Rufus_Maximus comments on Jan 29, 2018:

This is so non sequitur that I think 7 or 8 shell fish should do the trick.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 29, 2018:

Non sequiters don't matter in this context if the points are made. That's just arguing for using extra language when it is unnecessary. I don't understand why people expect a full dissertation to be posted on forums. Could it have been written better? Yes. Does it matter if it conveys the points? Not really.

I saw this Christian named Zig Ziglar post this on Facebook: be yourself, don't be someone you are ...

buck1977 comments on Jan 29, 2018:

I don't need people to like me...which is why I'm not a christian or a liberal...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 29, 2018:

@buck1977 Nail on the head.

Want to know what percentage of the community believes in free will?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 29, 2018:

Nature vs. Nurture in sheep's clothing. It's a combination. I don't will myself to react to something on reflexes, but I can choose to hone them, or not. I can choose to post this, or I could not. It depends on what you're talking about, specifically.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 29, 2018:

Yes, by choice.

Whether or not you play video games on your own time, do you find or think playing video games with ...

Atheistman comments on Jan 29, 2018:

Nooooooo, it actually breaks relationships apart, less time fucking, more time gaming.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 29, 2018:

Lol, Beepin the wrong buttons.

Whether or not you play video games on your own time, do you find or think playing video games with ...

jacpod comments on Jan 29, 2018:

No I'd rather play real board games with a group of people I love/like.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 29, 2018:

I've gone from table top, to computer, to console and back to table top.

Is being forceful with ones' disbelief of religion any better than someone trying to convert one to ...

cercatrova comments on Jan 29, 2018:

I refer to people who try to convince every believer that they should be a non-believer, evangelical atheists. If someone wants to have the discussion, I’m down. But if we are in line getting coffee and I see your Jesus shirt, I’m not going to launch into a rant. I’ve known people who would.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 29, 2018:

@shelton I think it's funny that theists think evangelism is great, as long as it's not any other kind but their own. "Evangelical Atheism" is considered a derogatory term.

Whats your opinion of the Bible?

IntellectualRN comments on Jan 29, 2018:

I prefer Norse and Greek mythology.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 29, 2018:

Me too, my friends call me Odins Atheist.

How do you feel about Christians?

David1955 comments on Jan 29, 2018:

You can't hate a people as a group. I know and have known many great Christian people. Also some truly awful Christians. I don't like Christianity, and make no apology for that. Appalling history and a death cult. I don't need to go into any more detail than that.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 29, 2018:

You shouldn't hate a group of people, but you can. It happens all the time. I agree with you though.

I saw this Christian named Zig Ziglar post this on Facebook: be yourself, don't be someone you are ...

buck1977 comments on Jan 29, 2018:

I don't need people to like me...which is why I'm not a christian or a liberal...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 29, 2018:

I'm glad to see that there are more nonliberals here than I originally thought.

Anyone Have An Exotic Animal As A Pet?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 28, 2018:

I have a Fischers African lovebird.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 28, 2018:

Boba, aka Lil Squish.

Have you ever had a partner succumb to mental health problems?

Unicorn1824 comments on Jan 28, 2018:

My wife was bipolar. She killed herself after we were married only a year.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 28, 2018:

Wow, I'm so sorry for your loss.

Liberals

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 28, 2018:

I've seen quite a few liberals who hate America, they told me they did. I think they are a vocal minority though. There are conservatives who think that these types of liberals typify the group, but again, they are a vocal minority.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 28, 2018:

There's one guy that I went to high school with that is a communist. He says the USA is completely backwards and he hates everything about it. There are people like this all over the internet.

What are your thoughts on the etiquette of paying for dates?

Crimson67 comments on Jan 28, 2018:

I am a firm believer in financial dating equality. First date should be dutch. All dates after the first, the person who invites pays but the other party should always offer to share the cost. My neighbor/former friend would date a guy and then suggest they go somewhere and then expect ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 28, 2018:

I couldn't agree more.

Liberals

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 28, 2018:

I've seen quite a few liberals who hate America, they told me they did. I think they are a vocal minority though. There are conservatives who think that these types of liberals typify the group, but again, they are a vocal minority.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 28, 2018:

Exactly my point. There are extremists on both sides. I think the rest of us, the sane people, need to start rebuilding bridges.

Is it wrong to challenge the beliefs of the elderly?

wordywalt comments on Jan 28, 2018:

We do need to take care. If religious beliefs define the core of who that person has become, destroying that core can be debilitating if the person has nothing to replace it with and has limited time left.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 28, 2018:

Normally I would say religion is terrible in all forms, but someone that is very old may actually suffer physical problems due to stress when questioned on something as delicate as a core belief. Best live and let live in that situation.

Can you "choose" to believe in something?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 25, 2018:

Yes you can, and do chose your beliefs. I chose to believe in science to explain the world and my feelings. Others choose god because they feel they must believe as a result of indoctrination into the faith. Religious belief is widely based on geography. You don't see a lot of Hindu folks being born...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 28, 2018:

Belief is not the same word as believe. One is a noun, the other, an adjective. They have different meanings. You're picking a nonexistent knit.

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 27, 2018:

I think it's a great idea. I'm not sure we are currently capable of making that technology work logistically though. The cost seems to out weigh the benefit at this point as far as I know. I'd love to see it succeed though.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 28, 2018:

5 reasons why the hyperloop is problematic. https://www.google.com/amp/amp.dailycaller.com/2016/07/26/scientist-lays-out-5-huge-problems-with-elon-musks-hyperloop-video/

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

DelilahJones33 comments on Jan 27, 2018:

I understand what you're saying. I also understand that occasionally some people enjoy being stubbornly semantic just to be difficult (or for shits and giggles lol). ;)

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 28, 2018:

I hear ya. Asking for a definition in a debate is suicide. If the only problem someone can find with an argument is that they don't understand a word then it is they who has lost.

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

mrdunn comments on Jan 24, 2018:

I sorry @jayneonacobb, I couldn't follow your argument. What were the other explanations for the origins of the big bang you offered that weren't accidental? By "accidental" I'm assuming you mean "unconscious"?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 28, 2018:

Do you think Joe is intilectual inferior to me because he believes in God? See, I can troll you too.Talk about a nonsequiter. That's what trolling looks like, familiar to you, isn't it? Your belief does rob you of critical thinking in at least one area. I just happen to think you did a wonderful job illustrating how that one illogical belief you hold can poison the rest of a person's mind.

Broken?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 27, 2018:

I bought a house, car and ring for a woman. She had been cheating on me for the previous six months ( I had no idea). When she left the only thing she didn't take was a positive pregnancy test and a receipt for the abortion. She left them on the floor in the middle of my empty living room. She spent...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 27, 2018:

Thanks, I appreciate it. I don't know if I'll ever get over it, but I am glad it's over.

When y'all gonna stop whining about Trump?

BlueWave comments on Jan 27, 2018:

I find your demands insulting. Being politically active, mindful, or aware -- and discussing what is going on in our country is not WHINING, but thanks for the insult. Yes, you are right. The whole world gets that our country is in CRISIS right now. Thanks for noticing. I am 51 years old. ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 27, 2018:

Then show you're better than him by not sinking to his level.

Should an alleged sex offender remain anonymous until convicted?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 27, 2018:

I can't describe the hate and disgust that I feel in regard to sex offenders, especially pedophiles. With that in mind, due process is the right of all people. I don't think it's right to publish that information until a verdict is reached. Even if they are innocent that sort of publicity can be ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 27, 2018:

You can't rehabilitate these people. Yes, punishment should fit the crime.

When y'all gonna stop whining about Trump?

BlueWave comments on Jan 27, 2018:

I find your demands insulting. Being politically active, mindful, or aware -- and discussing what is going on in our country is not WHINING, but thanks for the insult. Yes, you are right. The whole world gets that our country is in CRISIS right now. Thanks for noticing. I am 51 years old. ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 27, 2018:

You calling him a moron is disrespectful. You're name calling, like a child. I don't mind people disagreeing with politicians. I do all the time, but I don't degrade myself by acting like a spoiled brat. The moment you don't respect your enemy is the moment they deliver the killing blow. If I had called Obama the same type of things you call Trump I'd be labeled as a hateful, racist, bigot by Trump haters. Ignoring the problem doesn't help anyone. Just the fact that my post offended you shows me that you are not mature. Do you know what moron means? I'd be willing to bet that you're PC and think calling someone a retard is wrong.

When y'all gonna stop whining about Trump?

BlueWave comments on Jan 27, 2018:

I find your demands insulting. Being politically active, mindful, or aware -- and discussing what is going on in our country is not WHINING, but thanks for the insult. Yes, you are right. The whole world gets that our country is in CRISIS right now. Thanks for noticing. I am 51 years old. ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 27, 2018:

I support your right to believe what you believe. I bet we agree on a lot more than you think. I just think name calling and blatant disregard for manners is detracting from your positions credibility. Not only that it makes those people look immature and petty.

When y'all gonna stop whining about Trump?

twshield comments on Jan 27, 2018:

well you have to understand to that this is the first president who tweets and will basically comment about anything. for this reason people in turn will be more vocal about him in a positive or negative way. We have never had a president offering opinions about football players kneeling. Presidents...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 27, 2018:

Somebody needs to take his phone, I agree. I address issues I have with his administration, but I am an adult about it. Since I joined here I don't use Facebook as much either.

When y'all gonna stop whining about Trump?

twshield comments on Jan 27, 2018:

well you have to understand to that this is the first president who tweets and will basically comment about anything. for this reason people in turn will be more vocal about him in a positive or negative way. We have never had a president offering opinions about football players kneeling. Presidents...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 27, 2018:

I get all that. I don't like him much either. I'm just tired of the name calling and constant hate. It's immature and counter productive. Look at the comment below for evidence of what it's doing to smart people. I don't want to engage with people who can't set aside their feelings when discussing problems.

When y'all gonna stop whining about Trump?

BlueWave comments on Jan 27, 2018:

I find your demands insulting. Being politically active, mindful, or aware -- and discussing what is going on in our country is not WHINING, but thanks for the insult. Yes, you are right. The whole world gets that our country is in CRISIS right now. Thanks for noticing. I am 51 years old. ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 27, 2018:

I don't like the guy, but I don't call him commander and cheeto, or the Orange one. I didn't vote for him, but I don't call him names and just complain about him, just like when Obama was in office. Talk about the issues you have, just stop name calling. You're smarter than that.

Friday fun - what's that film quote?

BawdyEclectic comments on Jan 26, 2018:

"Multipass!" And just for fun, from the same movie..."Weddings are one floor down, my son. Congratulations."

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 26, 2018:

Fifth element

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

mrdunn comments on Jan 24, 2018:

I sorry @jayneonacobb, I couldn't follow your argument. What were the other explanations for the origins of the big bang you offered that weren't accidental? By "accidental" I'm assuming you mean "unconscious"?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 26, 2018:

I know it's concede the damn auto correct keeps changing it. You're just a troll. Oh, that makes sense, you can't think correctly because you're a believer.

I dislike living in a highly conservative area.

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 25, 2018:

Why not talk to them? You might find common ground if you ask the right questions. This country needs healing, and that means taking some uncomfortable steps. I'm conservative, but I don't care for religion, I'm not a Trump fan, and I am open to talking to people who disagree with me. I may disagree...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 26, 2018:

Thank you for the kind words, but I'm no innocent child. Wisdom is oft gained through foolishness and folly. I consider myself quite the imp. Those are the people who need reason most. Are you scared you'll be converted? If not, what's the harm in a conversation?

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

mrdunn comments on Jan 24, 2018:

I sorry @jayneonacobb, I couldn't follow your argument. What were the other explanations for the origins of the big bang you offered that weren't accidental? By "accidental" I'm assuming you mean "unconscious"?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 26, 2018:

You need a dictionary and a class on debate. String theory allows for a multiverse. It may be possible for someone in another universe to intentionally create a universe. In which case the resulting universe would be intentionally created. You need to stop thinking in binary terms and start thinking abstractly about things. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. This theory would make an antitheist wrong in the assertion that the universe they occupy was accidental in origin. I'm not saying I believe that, I'm just not ruling it out either, which does not mean I believe it. I said that I am a materialist in the sense that I require evidence before forming an opinion, or believing someone's claim. This does not change the result of the theory. I'm sorry to tell you, you're wrong about everything you said. I think you need to work more on your critical thinking skills, and less on being critical. I lost on that initial point, It says so in the post. I did win the overall debate. We found common ground by me helping him pose a question in a better manner. Subtext, my man. Even though I suspected that my version of his question required I conceit that point I still helped him establish a better argument. I learned something in the process and I thought it was note worthy enough to share. The real lesson I learned was to think abstractly. Once again, you miss the sub text.

A universe from nothing? Anyone knowledgable about Physics?

magicwatch comments on Jan 24, 2018:

what a great question,! if you or I could answer that then we would win the noble prize, my understanding is that the universe will end when it becomes too "cold" for anything else too happen. i.e. atoms freeze and no motion is possible. this is the opposite of the so called "big bang" where the ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

I might not beable to prove string theory, but I do study it. It sounds like I'm not the only one. :)

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

mrdunn comments on Jan 24, 2018:

I sorry @jayneonacobb, I couldn't follow your argument. What were the other explanations for the origins of the big bang you offered that weren't accidental? By "accidental" I'm assuming you mean "unconscious"?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

@mrdunn The big bang is consistent with what you would expect from an accidental universe. Most of it is inhospitable to life. The second law of thermodynamics illustrates exactly what happens in a closed system. Our universe is exhibiting properties of being in a closed system. That's not what were discussing here and I think you know that. You just wanted me to lay out an argument that is irrelivent given the nature of the debate. We're discussing weather or not, in this specific iteration of the universe that we currently occupy, an antitheist can believe in an alternative theory to the two posed by science and religion. The answer is yes. The infinant regression argument is not applicable in this instance because it is only discussing the cause of, again, this specific and current universe, which we now occupy. I literally spelled it out for you, but you just don't seem able to separate a premise for a debate and what someone actually believes. I've had to debate both sides of every issue that I discuss, it doesn't mean I believe both sides. This was an exercise in finding common ground with people you disagree with and posing new questions.

Can you "choose" to believe in something?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 25, 2018:

Yes you can, and do chose your beliefs. I chose to believe in science to explain the world and my feelings. Others choose god because they feel they must believe as a result of indoctrination into the faith. Religious belief is widely based on geography. You don't see a lot of Hindu folks being born...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

I see your meaning, but, "I believe that the scientific method is a reliable way to collect information based on the data I have available to me at this time," Is a little long winded for the context.

A universe from nothing? Anyone knowledgable about Physics?

magicwatch comments on Jan 24, 2018:

what a great question,! if you or I could answer that then we would win the noble prize, my understanding is that the universe will end when it becomes too "cold" for anything else too happen. i.e. atoms freeze and no motion is possible. this is the opposite of the so called "big bang" where the ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

@magicwatch I know what you mean, its quite the rabbit hole. There's always the question of 10, 11 or 26 dimensions to consider as well, if any are even correct.

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

tsjames comments on Jan 24, 2018:

Why would the universe have to have purpose? I would just toss that question back and have him deal with it.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

Winning wasn't the point, it was answering the question.

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

AtheistInNC comments on Jan 24, 2018:

Define "accident". The universe follows the rules of physics. Our CURRENT theory is the big bang. Was the big bang and 'accident'? Most likely it was a product of physical processes we don't understand at this moment in time. But not an 'accident' like he thinks.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

I would define those things as results of an accidental universe which is governed by certain laws and principals that lead to those events. In these cases they would be gravity and evolution, respectively. Intent requires intelligence.

Is humanity doomed?

stinkeye_a comments on Jan 25, 2018:

If we're going to be fine and we do nothing, no problem. If we're going to be fine and we do something, no problem. If we're in trouble and we do nothing, we're definitely doomed. If we're in trouble and we do something, we might have a shot at making things better. If not, at least we ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

I completely agree.

I have spent weeks measuring myself.

azzow2 comments on Jan 25, 2018:

Do you mean on a Da Vinci level or a cryptology level?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

I'm also confused, I went with computer code, as I think he means there is a correlative search happening using the word "what" as a search parameter.

Scientists have cloned monkeys and it could help treat cancer | New Scientist

Dwight comments on Jan 25, 2018:

If they cloned humans would they be able to experiment on them? Then they would have a direct match instead of an analog.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

It would still be unethical as the clones would still be human.

A universe from nothing? Anyone knowledgable about Physics?

magicwatch comments on Jan 24, 2018:

what a great question,! if you or I could answer that then we would win the noble prize, my understanding is that the universe will end when it becomes too "cold" for anything else too happen. i.e. atoms freeze and no motion is possible. this is the opposite of the so called "big bang" where the ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

First off, I love your user name. I hope it's a reference to the blind watchmaker argument. Second, we can't answer the question because we lack a working theory of unification. String theory stops working at higher dimensions. If that could be rectified we may have a viable means to discovery. Resolving string theory may also raise further questions though. You'll notice I used a lot of hypotheticals there. I'm no where close to being good enough at math to reconcile relativity and quantum physics.

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

Condor5 comments on Jan 23, 2018:

I would initially reject the term "accidental." That term is very limited in its meaning, imho, and has no validity in relation to the universe and its possible origins. Not sure what other term, specifically, would apply, but accidental just doesn't fit. How about "spontaneous"? Accidental sounds ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

Accidental in this case means unintentionally because it is an adjective, not a noun. https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8=ms-android-americamovil-us=android-browser&q=define+accidental

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

tsjames comments on Jan 24, 2018:

Why would the universe have to have purpose? I would just toss that question back and have him deal with it.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

I agree, but that's the question he wanted answered. The debate continued and I did point out all of the problems with his position. I thought the question he posed was interesting in the way it made me think differently about something.

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

AtheistInNC comments on Jan 24, 2018:

Define "accident". The universe follows the rules of physics. Our CURRENT theory is the big bang. Was the big bang and 'accident'? Most likely it was a product of physical processes we don't understand at this moment in time. But not an 'accident' like he thinks.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

Accidental, with out intent. Accidental does not need to be defined in the context of the debate because it is a basic, specific concept. If you don't know the definition of the work you can look it up, it's not my responsibility to define words that you don't understand. That is why "hard line atheist" was unacceptable and subsequently was replaced by antitheist. Antitheist is more accurate for the debate topic.

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

mrdunn comments on Jan 24, 2018:

I sorry @jayneonacobb, I couldn't follow your argument. What were the other explanations for the origins of the big bang you offered that weren't accidental? By "accidental" I'm assuming you mean "unconscious"?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 25, 2018:

I think you're confusing my argument with my beliefs. I am a materialist and antitheist, which means I believe that the way our universe exists is consistent with it being accidental. The data for this is how the universe works. I think you missed the point of the post.

Women, does he really need to know?

Crimson67 comments on Jan 24, 2018:

Depends on how long she's known the guy and what her intent is. If it was a one night stand/short term relationship and she plans to terminate, then he has no need to know. If it was a one night stand/short term relationship and she plans to keep it, I think she should tell him just so he knows...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 24, 2018:

If a woman has the right to choose, so does the man. I personally would stay and raise the child if that's what she wanted.

Women, does he really need to know?

Crimson67 comments on Jan 24, 2018:

Depends on how long she's known the guy and what her intent is. If it was a one night stand/short term relationship and she plans to terminate, then he has no need to know. If it was a one night stand/short term relationship and she plans to keep it, I think she should tell him just so he knows...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 24, 2018:

That's my exact same experience, except I was engaged.

Women, does he really need to know?

Crimson67 comments on Jan 24, 2018:

Depends on how long she's known the guy and what her intent is. If it was a one night stand/short term relationship and she plans to terminate, then he has no need to know. If it was a one night stand/short term relationship and she plans to keep it, I think she should tell him just so he knows...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 24, 2018:

I'd leave my wife or girlfriend if I found out they had an abortion and didn't discuss it with me and at least consider my position. I know that for a fact. I've seen me do it.

Question from a newbie to this forum, but not a newbie Atheist.

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 22, 2018:

Buddhists are often atheists. Modern Sun worshippers are also atheists, but they feel a spiritual connection to the sun. Pastafarianism is technically a religion that doesn't believe in their God. Jedi don't need to believe in God, yeah, that's a legit thing. I'd say as long as you reject the claim ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 24, 2018:

You're missing a conjunction which is a vital part of the sentence when discerning its meaning. Without it you are saying that you think it is a religion, but you claim to disagree. It's just nonsensical. Its a self contradictory statement without the word "that" given the context. Just because the government doesn't recognize something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

mrdunn comments on Jan 24, 2018:

I sorry @jayneonacobb, I couldn't follow your argument. What were the other explanations for the origins of the big bang you offered that weren't accidental? By "accidental" I'm assuming you mean "unconscious"?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 24, 2018:

The way our universe works is consistent with the accidental universe theory. I believe this is the best theory based on the data. My argument is simply that being an antitheist doesn't bar other theories of origin. You could call me a materialist in the sense that I don't accept things as true without evidence.

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

mrdunn comments on Jan 24, 2018:

I sorry @jayneonacobb, I couldn't follow your argument. What were the other explanations for the origins of the big bang you offered that weren't accidental? By "accidental" I'm assuming you mean "unconscious"?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 24, 2018:

I'm saying that we don't know how the big bang happened. The black hole is just one idea, there are others. Maybe someone in another universe recreated the big bang of their universe and in doing so created ours. That doesn't mean I believe either. There's no evidence for me to decide either way.

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

mrdunn comments on Jan 24, 2018:

I sorry @jayneonacobb, I couldn't follow your argument. What were the other explanations for the origins of the big bang you offered that weren't accidental? By "accidental" I'm assuming you mean "unconscious"?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 24, 2018:

Accidental means without intent. I'm not required to offer alternative theories to point out that they could exist. I don't know how the big bang happened, but I don't think it necessarily means that it was an accident. To answer the question though: I do know that some people have posed the notion that black holes might create singularities which lead to other big bangs.

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

Uncorrugated comments on Jan 23, 2018:

And what is wrong with saying "I do not know if the universe is accidental or not, I currently do not have sufficient evidence to draw a conclusion as to the origins of the universe at this time". I also cannot accept that 'accidental' is an appropriate term for the creation of the universe ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 24, 2018:

I agree on the burdon of proof. The debate was weather or not antitheist had to believe in the accidental universe theory, or if they could believe in other theories for the cause of the big bang. It was more an exercise in how to establish an argument and a lesson on how important language is in a debate.

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

MichaelSpinler comments on Jan 23, 2018:

the real issue here is people like this cannot deal with not being the center of a god or universes attention. there has to be a plan or a purpose.. for it to be naturally and unplanned, seams random and chance in their head, they cant deal with that, its their indoctrinated thinking at work. the ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 24, 2018:

I agree, but he did make me define why the universe may not be purely accidental in origin. I'd never done that before. Still doesn't mean a god made everything tough.

Does being a "hard line atheist" mean you believe in an accidental universe?

Condor5 comments on Jan 23, 2018:

I would initially reject the term "accidental." That term is very limited in its meaning, imho, and has no validity in relation to the universe and its possible origins. Not sure what other term, specifically, would apply, but accidental just doesn't fit. How about "spontaneous"? Accidental sounds ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 24, 2018:

Accidental means without intent. I'd say it fits the bill. Spontaneous is more of a timing issue. One can be spontaneous accidentally. I'm glad you get the premise of the story though.

Question from a newbie to this forum, but not a newbie Atheist.

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 22, 2018:

Buddhists are often atheists. Modern Sun worshippers are also atheists, but they feel a spiritual connection to the sun. Pastafarianism is technically a religion that doesn't believe in their God. Jedi don't need to believe in God, yeah, that's a legit thing. I'd say as long as you reject the claim ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 24, 2018:

@JeffMurray Then your statement was poorly written. It should have read "I disagree that pastafarianism is a religion." Tongue and cheek or not, it is a religion as it has tenants, wide and varying as they may be. It just happens to be a religion that does not believe in its deity as it's main tenant. You would be wrong about it not being recognized in the US as a religion. Someone sighted religious freedom laws in order to wear a strainer on their head during taking a photo for a driver's license. She was able to do so because religion is protected by the bill of rights. If it wasn't considered a religion that case would have gone the other way.

Question from a newbie to this forum, but not a newbie Atheist.

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 22, 2018:

Buddhists are often atheists. Modern Sun worshippers are also atheists, but they feel a spiritual connection to the sun. Pastafarianism is technically a religion that doesn't believe in their God. Jedi don't need to believe in God, yeah, that's a legit thing. I'd say as long as you reject the claim ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 24, 2018:

@JeffMurray I don't see where the disagreement is. I said that it was technically a religion. That is a correct assessment. Also, punctuation would have clarified the statement. There was no context clue because there was no comma, which made the statement hard to understand as you were agreeing with me. Which renders the comment moot.

How Prepared Are You For Death?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 23, 2018:

Already donated my body to science.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 23, 2018:

I've always had an interest in neuroscience, that's why I chose to donate my body.

What are some of y’all favorite podcasts?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 23, 2018:

Where do I start? MBMBAM, the Adventure Zone, fictional, myths and legends, startalk radio, intelligence squared, Hello From the Magic Tavern, critical hit, welcome to nightvale, saw bones, the HP Lovecraft literary podcast, lore, judge John Hogeman (sp?), we hate movies, oh no ross and Carrie, ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 23, 2018:

Yes, just like most of my Saturday's.

How Prepared Are You For Death?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 23, 2018:

Already donated my body to science.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 23, 2018:

I won't be using it, might as well put it to good use. I like to think my body will be launched into orbit via an extremely large cannon, just to see what happens. Lol j/k.

How many people have still not worked out why Hillary lost?

sassygirl3869 comments on Jan 22, 2018:

The election was stolen by trump and the Russians. Period. Piece of shit trimpty dumpty.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 23, 2018:

You know why conspiracy theories seem true? Because thats exactly what "they" want you to think.

How many people have still not worked out why Hillary lost?

Knitfreak comments on Jan 22, 2018:

I would love to have a woman president, but a decent woman would be my choice. There are a few... Hillary is not one of them. There are many reasons she lost... she is not personable, has a horrid reputation, stayed with a cheater for power and money instead of teaching her daughter what a strong ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 23, 2018:

@Ad4hubby I'm glad you also voted for an alternative candidate. I voted libertarian this time because I wanted to get equal funding for another party and they were projected to reach their goal. They did. More parties means more distribution of power, and more accurate representation. I know she's green party, and what that means, but I'd have to look into her more to form an opinion about her politics.

How many people have still not worked out why Hillary lost?

Knitfreak comments on Jan 22, 2018:

I would love to have a woman president, but a decent woman would be my choice. There are a few... Hillary is not one of them. There are many reasons she lost... she is not personable, has a horrid reputation, stayed with a cheater for power and money instead of teaching her daughter what a strong ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 23, 2018:

Y'all know that you can write in a candidate, right? You could still have voted for Bernie. Hell, you could have voted for literally any natural born american land owner 35 years or older with no felony convictions. You don't have to pick the lesser of two evils, that's how we ended up with Trump.

Who do you think exemplifies hypocrisy more than anyone else in public life?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 23, 2018:

A year ago I'd say Obama, but he's technically a private citizen now. I'd have to say the Muslim woman who organized the women's rights march last winter. She supports sharia law, and women's rights? I don't understand this supreme lack of logic.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 23, 2018:

Is that her name? She's a walking contradiction. Don't get me wrong, I support equality with every fiber of my being, but sharia is not equality. I think we all agree on that point.

Question from a newbie to this forum, but not a newbie Atheist.

MsOliver comments on Jan 22, 2018:

This is the subject I diverge with one of the Horsemen, specifically Sam Harris on. I think the whole notion of "spirituality" is simply whooo for people who can't let go of all things religious. Others will disagree but I simply find no need for "spirituality" to make life meaningful or complete,...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 23, 2018:

Hi, I think you're confusing materialism with atheism. Atheism is the rejection of a claim that god (s) exist. Materialism is the rejection of supernatural claims. All materialists are atheists, but not all atheists are materialists.

Question from a newbie to this forum, but not a newbie Atheist.

MsOliver comments on Jan 22, 2018:

This is the subject I diverge with one of the Horsemen, specifically Sam Harris on. I think the whole notion of "spirituality" is simply whooo for people who can't let go of all things religious. Others will disagree but I simply find no need for "spirituality" to make life meaningful or complete,...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 23, 2018:

Hi, I think you're confusing materialism with atheism. Atheism is the rejection of a claim that god (s) exist. Materialism is the rejection of supernatural claims. All materialists are atheists, but not all atheists are materialists.

I'm a big fan of Hitch, I enjoy a good Hitchslap, and I think he was near unbeatable on the religion...

RYSR10 comments on Jan 23, 2018:

You're stupid to think that a debate isn't an argument. I lost the debate. Damn. You stand corrected. :)

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 23, 2018:

I wasn't wrong in the first place, I can't stand corrected in that case, I'm just correct. I'm confused by your post.

Question from a newbie to this forum, but not a newbie Atheist.

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 22, 2018:

Buddhists are often atheists. Modern Sun worshippers are also atheists, but they feel a spiritual connection to the sun. Pastafarianism is technically a religion that doesn't believe in their God. Jedi don't need to believe in God, yeah, that's a legit thing. I'd say as long as you reject the claim ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 23, 2018:

@JeffMurray "You disagree, pastafarianism is a religion." Or "You disagree that pastafarianism is a religion?" Theres a big difference between the two statements.

I'm a big fan of Hitch, I enjoy a good Hitchslap, and I think he was near unbeatable on the religion...

ErichZannIII comments on Jan 23, 2018:

Hitch, the movie?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 23, 2018:

Lol

Sex Robot Samantha's 'Moral Judgment' A.I. Slammed by Experts | Inverse

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 22, 2018:

At least you know she'll always give consent, unless you friends find and reprogram it.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

Oh, they would. It would be hilarious though.

The Evolution of Language Over time, words evolve from their original meanings.

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 22, 2018:

I think the like button means that you like the content, or failing that, you like that it was brought to light. I don't like that Frank kicked a puppy, I like that people are exposing Frank for kicking the puppy. Essentially I like the post either way. Language changes over time, but it is ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

I'm going to assume you mean the stop/yield analogy, but I'll explain both. If stop suddenly means yield then rape no longer exists as a concept. The reason is telling some one to slow down before continuing (to yield) is an affirmation of consent. This is a major problem. I tackled this first because it should be obvious. Kicking a puppy isn't good, I think we agree on that point. I don't have to like that Frank kicked a puppy to like that someone posted that Frank kicked the puppy. I like the fact that it was posted, regardless of the intent of the post. Although I would hope that they posted it to blow up Frank's spot, so to speak. The fact that you get points for "liking" something on a single platform doesn't change the meaning of like. It just means that by taking that action you are, at the very least, participated in some way within the community.

The Evolution of Language Over time, words evolve from their original meanings.

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 22, 2018:

I think the like button means that you like the content, or failing that, you like that it was brought to light. I don't like that Frank kicked a puppy, I like that people are exposing Frank for kicking the puppy. Essentially I like the post either way. Language changes over time, but it is ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

I'm not sure I get your meaning. Which analogy doesn't make sense to you, the puppy kicking, or the stop/yield one? Maybe I can clarify for you what I meant.

In case you didn’t know...

SACatWalker comments on Jan 22, 2018:

Yet when I point out that Mexican women are still doing that, I'm a racist. Go figure.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

I get called bigoted in every way all the time. Its people's default response to information that challenges their beliefs.

I'm a conservative atheist.

hankster comments on Jan 22, 2018:

Smaller Gov't ? just so we have less politicians, lol. In what ways?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

I think health care and education are absolutely paramount to the defense of our nation. I just think we should have regulated the health field and insurance as a whole, not the citizens. Same with welfare. You can't just cut it off, but if we made laws requiring an appropriate minimum percentage of pay based on corporate profits we could end the cause of the need. All of this is legal and I think more moral. As far as Israel goes, we have given them 121 billion in mostly military aid, that's about 3 billion a year, I think, thats half our annual foreign aid budget. I'm glad we can be civil in our discourse. I'm especially interested to know your views on the topic foreign aid.

Post your favorite.... [youtu.be]

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 22, 2018:

https://youtu.be/eNxO9MpQ2vA I'm not sure how this site works yet, but I hope one of these does, lol.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

Yay!

ARE WE ALONE. So the question,are we alone in the universe?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 22, 2018:

The drake equasion clearly states that it is statistically impossible for us to be alone in the universe. That's some pretty good evidence for other life in the cosmos.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

I think astrophysicists would disagree with you there. We know there are billions of galaxies, we know the probability of planets in the goldilocks zone and the odds of those planets having water. The math works because it's based on facts. Ask any respected astrophysicists or cosmologist and they will tell you that the drake equation is sound.

My thoughts on dealing with trolls: 1) Block them 2) Refer to step one 3) Take pleasure in the ...

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 19, 2018:

Troll: But how do you know gods not real? Me: In all of human history there has never been any proof of a god, but there is a never ending supply of facts that render your god impossible. Troll: you can't disprove god! You're an idiot and you're going to hell. Me: you never read your bible, do ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

@theist, that's just good satire.

I'm a conservative atheist.

Trajan61 comments on Jan 22, 2018:

I’m also a conservative atheist myself but have some views that are more liberal. I think marijuana should be legal for recreational use nationwide. I also fully support a woman’s right to an abortion in the first 20 weeks of pregnancy and longer if the woman’s life is in danger or there is ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

I completely agree. I would argue though that personal liberty is a traditionally conservative view, I see this as the right for a woman to choose, adults to chose to do drugs, people to marry whom ever they choose, and so on. Liberalism is for big government, which infringes on personal liberty.

So, it's tax time again.

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 22, 2018:

I'm not happy with the state of our welfare system either. These programs were designed and originally passed as temporary measures. The extension of social programs should and can be funded better in the private sector through non-profit organizations. If people really cared about this issue they ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

I don't watch fox news, I prefer to get news from people who disagree with me. I find it opens me up to new ideas and ways to view things. According to the law people have the right to liberty, corporations are not people. You won't hear anyone on fox say that. Also the fact is social security was meant to be temporary, as have all other social programs. The way I see it, there's nothing stopping you from starting a non-profit organization to feed and house people. They have them already. I just don't think it's right for me to have to pay taxes that go to things I see as government overreach. Technically you can't tax an individual's pay. If the government would focus it's energy on following the law instead of making it up at random we wouldn't need these programs. On another note, you lose a debate as soon as you start making personal attacks. It undermines your credibility and therefore weakens your argument. Hitchens would have been unstoppable if he had minded his manners.

I'm a conservative atheist.

hankster comments on Jan 22, 2018:

Smaller Gov't ? just so we have less politicians, lol. In what ways?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

No corporate aid or tax breaks from the government. No bail outs. Higher corporate taxes. Get rid of redundant agencies. Strip down the law books and stream line them. Reduce and eventually eliminate welfare. (I'm poor enough to qualify for some of these and I still don't support them.) Stop wasteful spending, like the war on drugs, foreign aid to the middle East (including Israel), this endless war, and the tanks we had made despite the army not wanting or needing them. Get rid of blue (Religious based) laws. End the patriot act and disband all agencies established as a result of it. Increase corporate taxation, lower spending could reduce income taxes to the point of them being unnecessary and getting rid of the IRS. pass a law requiring loopholes be closed upon discovery, rather than allowing them to be exploited. Ban offshore banking. Get rid of the federal reserve. Stop mass surveillance. Basically I think the less government gets involved with an individual's personal liberty the better. For example the gay marriage debate was moot by the time it was debated in Congress, and it was technically never illegal as tradition and religion are not law. Thanks for the question, I hope you found my answer sufficient. If there are any specifics you would like to know my position on I'd be glad to elaborate.

I'm a conservative atheist.

hankster comments on Jan 22, 2018:

does "conservative" refer to your politics or is that a variety of atheism?

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

I appreciate the question, thanks for taking the time to ask it. I'm glad we have some common ground on the subject.

Why do we need feminism?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 22, 2018:

I don't think this new wave anti-male form of feminism is healthy or equal. I do believe that feminism has an important place in our society right now. My only hope is that one day we won't have a need for words like feminist or atheist. I hope that we can move past antiquated and wrong thinking ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

I feel like people stopped reading my response after the first sentence.

Why do we need feminism?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 22, 2018:

I don't think this new wave anti-male form of feminism is healthy or equal. I do believe that feminism has an important place in our society right now. My only hope is that one day we won't have a need for words like feminist or atheist. I hope that we can move past antiquated and wrong thinking ...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

You Tube has all the evidence you need from the people who are pushing this wage gap, pink tax antimale feminism. I'm not saying that most feminists believe men are less than them. I'm saying it exists, and I disagree with it based on the available data. There is an extreme in every group. I don't agree with most if not all extremists.

Is it just me, or is the religious world all screwed up?

hankster comments on Jan 22, 2018:

seems any group of humans that numbers beyond about 1 in membership, and that's no guarantee of exclusion, is certain to be a train wreck on occasion.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

Lol, I couldn't agree more.

What do you think is the common link in this "group"?

pfreddie62 comments on Jan 22, 2018:

I thought the common theme was not believing in god, anti-theism. I'm lucky my wife is an atheist as well, I don't think I could maintain a relationship with a religious woman.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

I know I've failed at that in the past.

ARE WE ALONE. So the question,are we alone in the universe?

SamKerry comments on Jan 22, 2018:

Firstly to qualify my response: I believe that life on Earth evolved from single cell beings which developed over millions of years from chemical reactions from Earths tumultuous past. Secondly, I have to consider if other planets in other systems in other galaxies have formed similarly to Earth?...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 22, 2018:

Well put, I just mentioned the Drake equation in my response.

Do People Understand That DACA Recipients Are Not Illegal Immigrants?

hankster comments on Jan 21, 2018:

this attack on daca, imo, is mostly driven by the desire to undo Obama stuff, and only addresses the issue for political gain, avoiding solutions.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 21, 2018:

The act wasn't well thought out and there was a much better, legal way to implement such a policy, but because politicians are awful, we now have yet another mess. Immigration is extremely important to any nation. Without it we would not have had the Manhattan project, NASA would be way behind and we wouldn't have most of the luxuries that we enjoy today. Not to mention we wouldn't exist.

Do you stay current on the latest science?

jayneonacobb comments on Jan 21, 2018:

I'm always looking up pop science on YouTube. If I find something interesting I'll read the study. Knowledge is power, afterall.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 21, 2018:

I'm going to start to. Maybe there should be a new category for science videos and articles... hint hint. ;)

Do People Understand That DACA Recipients Are Not Illegal Immigrants?

DJVJ311 comments on Jan 21, 2018:

First, to be absolutely clear, I believe in more than a path to citizenship and generally open borders. I do have to disagree with this post. They are illegal immigrants. They are illegal immigrants who we have documented and have "Deferred Action" on because they were "Childhood Arrivals". That...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 21, 2018:

@DJVJ311 I agree with your philosophy regarding the politics. I don't like Trump either. My point is by claiming Juan as an American citizen and keeping him here in the first place is tantamount to kidnapping. This causes me to reassess immigration law as a whole. As a result of that I need to know what went wrong and when. The DACA went wrong in 2012 By being passed, then became a problem in 2018. That is what were discussing, the ramifications of an unconstitutional law. Not what to do with these people. They are here, many of them will grow up and be successful. That's awesome for our country. I'm not denying that. Im just saying the wrong people are being blamed. This could have been avoided if we weren't so divided as a nation and we reformed our laws appropriately. Not only that, but we have a better, legal solution to the problem already. Green card programs through nonprofit backing for one.

Do People Understand That DACA Recipients Are Not Illegal Immigrants?

DJVJ311 comments on Jan 21, 2018:

First, to be absolutely clear, I believe in more than a path to citizenship and generally open borders. I do have to disagree with this post. They are illegal immigrants. They are illegal immigrants who we have documented and have "Deferred Action" on because they were "Childhood Arrivals". That...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 21, 2018:

@twshield I agree, they do need to reach an agreement and they need to do so within the confines of the law, weather that means changing or nullifying other laws or not. The argument I'm making is that people are blaming the wrong people. I don't like Trump either, but i don't let it cloud my judgment. I don't like any politicians, but I hate bad arguments and baseless assumptions.

Do you skirt around the issue of out right saying you’re an atheist when people start talking ...

buck1977 comments on Jan 21, 2018:

I ask them "How do you know god______?".....and they look at me with a blank stare...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 21, 2018:

LMFAO

Do People Understand That DACA Recipients Are Not Illegal Immigrants?

sassygirl3869 comments on Jan 21, 2018:

Unfortunately herr trump, some Right Wing Pubs, and his followers are ignorant. They don't comprehend that DACA recipients are not illegal immigrants.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 21, 2018:

I get and agree with what you say in the first paragraph of your post. There are legitimate arguments to be made against the DACA though, and they should be made. I don't agree with what I call the "immigrant crimminal argument." I think it weakens good arguments by association. I'm just clarifying the terminology.

Do People Understand That DACA Recipients Are Not Illegal Immigrants?

wordywalt comments on Jan 21, 2018:

Those against DACA are nothing more than ethnocentric bigots.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 21, 2018:

@wordywalt *"The lady doth protest too much, me thinks." - William Shakespeare Now I troll you. ;) See, it's really not that fun, is it? The difference between you and me is that you don't demonstrate a basic understanding of tact or logic, despite the fact that I know you are capable of doing so. Take my advice and sharpen your whit with knowledge. It will help keep you from being embarrassed like this in the future. That, and learn some manners, polite people are taken more seriously. The worst part of all this is you and I both knew you would make another off hand comment, and that if you did I would make you look foolish again, but you did it anyway. This is the last time I will interact with you until you show intillectual growth and maturity. I honestly do hope that you take my advice and that you learned from this lesson. Reason and rationality, my friend, I wish you well.

Do People Understand That DACA Recipients Are Not Illegal Immigrants?

DJVJ311 comments on Jan 21, 2018:

First, to be absolutely clear, I believe in more than a path to citizenship and generally open borders. I do have to disagree with this post. They are illegal immigrants. They are illegal immigrants who we have documented and have "Deferred Action" on because they were "Childhood Arrivals". That...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 21, 2018:

@DUCHESSA I agree, countries shouldn't be run on feelings. I tend to base my opinions on evidence. The evidence says Obama broke the law. Green cards are perfectly legal, and I don't understand why these people couldn't have been put into the process of getting one while in the DACA program. It would have made this debate pointless. Granted it may have raised another, but I think it would have been harder to oppose. Sometimes suspending a law is the only option, but the way the DACA was written and implemented created a lot of problems. This is the same problem I have with the ACA, things could have been done in a smarter, legal way. But they weren't and now I'm being called a racist because I think forethought is important when governing a country. Not that any of you have acused me of racism, but it has been implied in this topic on another comment. *edited for clarity on the last point.

Do People Understand That DACA Recipients Are Not Illegal Immigrants?

DJVJ311 comments on Jan 21, 2018:

First, to be absolutely clear, I believe in more than a path to citizenship and generally open borders. I do have to disagree with this post. They are illegal immigrants. They are illegal immigrants who we have documented and have "Deferred Action" on because they were "Childhood Arrivals". That...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 21, 2018:

@DJVJ311 Let me tell you an anecdote. Rosa is 18, she's pregnant and her family has decided to hire a coyote and illegally immigrate to the United States. They are doing this in order to give her soon to be born son, Juan, a better life through giving him American citizenship by birthing him in the United States. They make the dangerous trek, which endangers the lives of everyone, especially Rosa and baby Juan and they get into the U.S. just in time. Juan is born right there in the desert. The boarder patrol agent that caught them only a 5 minute walk from the boarder helped birth Juan. Juan is an American citizen because he was born 5 minutes inside the boarder. Rosa and the baby are taken to a hospital near by. Her parents are deported the next day. When Rosa is deemed fit for deportation, she too is sent back to Mexico. Juan is placed in foster care and raised by strangers. Who's immoral in this story? Why are they immoral? Rosa and her parents are immoral. They first had to plan to break a law. Then they had to hire the coyote, which breaks yet another law. This is clear intent to commit an unlawful act. Because they hired the coyote they had to risk their lives crossing the desert. They also had to trust they wouldn't get double crossed by the coyote. Pregnant women are very vulnerable at 9 months, and so is the baby. This makes the hike very dangerous for Rosa and Juan. They also knew that if they were caught after Juan was born in America they would likely never see him again. Those choices do not sound like they are consistent with modern western morality, which is what I think you mean by "normal conversational English." *edited for two spelling errors, one clarifying verb (only) and quotation accuracy (normal).

Do People Understand That DACA Recipients Are Not Illegal Immigrants?

wordywalt comments on Jan 21, 2018:

Those against DACA are nothing more than ethnocentric bigots.

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 21, 2018:

@wordywalt Ok, I'm not going to discuss things with you anymore because you have failed to supply any evidence for your claim. You didn't even attempt to justify it, but you're acting as if you hold some sort of moral high ground. I find that behavior childish and not worth engaging in. I truly do hope that you start to learn about civil debate conduct. I think you're probably an intelligent person, and I'd like to see you use that intilect for something more than trolling people on the internet. I'd also appreciate you not assuming that people with differing views than you are automatically bigoted. A lot of us have legitimate arguments that have nothing to do with race.

Do People Understand That DACA Recipients Are Not Illegal Immigrants?

DJVJ311 comments on Jan 21, 2018:

First, to be absolutely clear, I believe in more than a path to citizenship and generally open borders. I do have to disagree with this post. They are illegal immigrants. They are illegal immigrants who we have documented and have "Deferred Action" on because they were "Childhood Arrivals". That...

jayneonacobb replies on Jan 21, 2018:

@twshield I'd love to see the people responsible for this legal blunder get sent to jail, but we all know they won't put Obama where he belongs. Or anyone else involved for that matter.