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This is sickening...

[theguardian.com]

What is wrong with these people?

OwlInASack 8 Feb 12

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0

Would that similar outrage be directed at what Israeli Zionists are doing to Palestinians.

Yes. But in moments like this it can sounds pretty crass to always ask that question. The Jew in question after all had nothing to do without Israel.

Right now we could just oppose the hatred shown here. If we always have to temper it, it can sound as though what Netenyahu does has some cause here

I’m up for an unequivocal ‘that’s fucking disgusting’ without needing to go further on this one

@OwlInASack

These things do not happen in a vacuum. That's not justifying it, that's just a fact. Right now Jeremy Corbyn is being shamefully smeared as an anti-Semite. Right now US congressional rep Ilhan Omar is being pressured to resign for speaking the truth about the influence of AIPAC on the US government. Right now, Congress is trying to criminalize BDS, which is clearly an assault on the first amendment.

Timing is everything quite often. There are confirmed instances of anti-Semitic graffiti being perpetrated by Zionists to garner sympathy. Israeli Zionists are on record saying that anti-Semitism is good for Israel. Just this weekend, I watched the ceremony for the creation of the DC Jewish Cultural Museum, yet the US does little to spotlight its own genocides of Native and African Americans. It is my guess this museum will not make much mention of the Nakba or the genocide being carried out against Palestinians.

My tax dollars do not directly support the perpetrator of this particular attack (as far as I know), but they do support the murder and brurality committed in apartheid Israel, as well as the corrupting influence on my government.

So I can both acknowledge that hatred/racism/bigotry against Jews is unacceptable, and still point out that Zionist bigotry gets a pass, in part because they use Jews and Jewishness as cover for it to shield it from criticism.

You make the comments you want, and I'll post what I deem pertinent.

@WilliamCharles

These things do not happen in a vacuum

I think you missed the point though: Simone Weil had nothing to do with Israel. Somehow connecting nazi graffiti against her - and thereby every Jew effectively - is...I don't quite know what words to say - as 'unreasonable' doesn't quite cut it.

If someone posted fascist grafitti on my Chinese mates door because of what China is doing to the Uighurs, would that be reasonable? After all nothing happens in a vaccum...

@OwlInASack

Again, you want to paint nice, neat dividing lines. You treat my own statement as if I somehow approved of the attack on her. I did not and do not, but as I said, I feel it's worth mentioning in all this handwringing over racist graffiti against a person for nothing other than some vilified aspect of their heritage, that many of these same people decrying this, are silent about crimes far darker than mere graffiti. War crimes are being committed by a nation state whose very existence was justified by the horrible crimes committed against them. We in the US bankroll them, protect them with our veto in the UN, condemn those choosing not to collaborate in their relentless genocidal policies, or dare to even point it out.

Again, I have no reason to doubt that the attack was a result of someone's irrational hatred, but reject those using it to further their own agendas with regards to anyone speaking out for justice for Palestinians.

You need not mince any words with me, despite indicating that you're holding back on your disdain. You seem to insist I fall in line with your own sensibilities.

OK. Here goes.

You: A bad thing happened.

Me: Bad things are truly bad.

There, you happy? That would have saved immeasurable bandwidth.

@OwlInASack

I have a tree related story (this is indeed sickening).

[middleeastmonitor.com]

@OwlInASack

And one having to do with racist graffiti. But you are correct in that these are completely different instances. One was done by those without the sanctions of the country it happened in. Its government has and most its citizens would unequivocally condemn such acts, and see the perpetrator(s) face justice if caught. In the other country, the government itself is in league with those committing these acts, if not actually the ones themselves. The victims are shamefully treated as the culprits... by the state, the courts, the military, the sanctioned land thieves (euphemistically referred to as "settlers" ), their vassal state protectors, the vassal state media... a person with even basic powers of perception would get this, or merely pretend not to see the plainly apparent reality.

I would then ask, are you clueless... or in denial?

@WilliamCharles

I would then ask, are you clueless... or in denial?

Or option 3 - just disagree with you about whether it’s reasonable to always conflate actions against any Jew with the actions of the state of Israel, or whether it’s reasonable to always play whataboutery when a crime is committed against a Jew

You’ve made some mistaken assumptions about me. On my day I’m pretty vocal about what happens in Palestine. I’ve written at length, twice, on this board in defence of Jeremy Corbyn (who was my MP for a bit) and the disgrace of the anti-semitism smears against him, in the past 24 hours.

But that doesn’t mean it is reasonable to make those points when a Nazi attack is being made against Jews in general, and one dead Jew specifically. If I do so and need 3 long posts before I manage the most grudging of criticisms of that attack some might reasonably suspect that I’m equivocal in my condemnation of it.

@OwlInASack

Link... not conflate. As noted, Israel uses any of these instances to justify their own cruelty and oppression. This is always a point worth making, particularly since the narrative is, and has long been, virtually entirely one-sided.

It is also not unreasonable to look at the timing considering the people who are in the crosshairs of false anti-Semitism accusations. Make a truly anti-Semitic statement, and it will follow you for life. Smear someone unjustly as an anti-Semite, and it almost always is seen as "no harm, no foul."

Respond to whatever I write in any way you wish, but you have no say in what views I choose to express.

@WilliamCharles

Respond to whatever I write in any way you wish, but you have no say in what views I choose to express

Thats the second time you’ve expressed a similar sentiment. Can you show where I’ve suggested otherwise? My apologies if I’ve given that impression. Not my intention

I have a view that I’m trying to persuade you of. I’m not succeeding and from your last response am pretty firmly convinced that I cannot so so.

I’ve deleted the longer post I’d written. I’m not sure there’s anything more I can say here - though personally I still think it’s unreasonable (not to say deeply unhelpful) to raise the Palestinians every time bad stuff happens to a Jew anywhere. We may have to just disagree

@OwlInASack

Make direct statements instead of your convoluted hypotheticals. They are somewhat hard to parse. My opening statement implies by default it was a bad thing by indicating that another outrageous thing also deserves mention, even more so in my opinion as, 1) it is a daily occurance and, 2) it does not get a similar treatment though every bit as brutal and evil. It can legitimately brought up as relevant to any Jewish story because it is a reminder that Jews themselves have a special obligation not to be silent just as Americans are obligated not to be silent about their nation's war crimes.

Your claim that I didn't make a specific condemnation till my third (long) post is false. Check your reading comprehension. It is in my very first response to your reply.

You claim Nazis did it rather than someone used a Nazi symbol. This is an important distinction as you have no way of knowing who did it nor their motive. Because of the timing, I feel it's entirely possible that it could be meant to put anti-Semitism in the spotlight by those who use it as a means of manipulation. It has certainly happened before. Even if not, there's a tendency to discount the suffering of others as not on the same level as for Jews (as with the Holocaust). There were other modern genocides with equally unbearable body counts, but theirs don't get capitalized.

As to your specious claim you are not trying to silence me, you say I should have just said it was a bad thing and left it at that.

That you require me to be more flexible in order for you to post your longer compositions a non sequitur. Maybe you just make a shitty argument. Yet you're willing to put it on my shoulders that I'm being unreasonable.

I reject you presumption, and if you require that you be able to change my mind because you deem your argument clearly superior, that is just sophistry. You have established no such grounds for that.

@OwlInASack

As to my other point, my guess is there was some retribution against Palestinians until the real culprits were indentified in this occurence. Like I noted, you have no way of knowing who did it yet.

[timesofisrael.com]

@WilliamCharles

Hmmm. Long old post there - and pretty sensitive too. That makes it virtually impossible to communicate. Your accusations are pretty much your own failings too - ‘twas ever thus I suppose.

As your specious claim you are not trying to silence me, you say I should have just said it was a bad thing and left it at that

How you get to me trying to silence you is phenomenal! It’s like arguing with an alt—right who claim that every ones trying to silence them. If I make an argument that I think an appropriate way to behave is to do or say C or not do or say X you are entirely free to take notice or not. There is no attempt to silence and its snowflakey at best to suggest otherwise.

I’ll pick an element though which I think is central to the point I was making - ignoring your histrionics along the way:

Your claim that I didn't make a specific condemnation till my third (long) post is false. Check your reading comprehension. It is in my very first response to your reply

I was surprised by that. Did I just get this very earnest, but can’t really communicate/bonkers aggressive guy wrong? So I checked

So I can both acknowledge that hatred/racism/bigotry against Jews is unacceptable, and still point out that Zionist bigotry gets a pass, in part because they use Jews and Jewishness as cover for it to shield it from criticism

That’s the only bit of your post that could vaguely be called a condemnation.

A). It clearly is no such thing; and
B) you negate any sense of condemnation with your subsequent questioning of who might have done it

Sure - it might have been some Zionist. Who knows. It’s still shit. I can say it’s shit anyway as Simone Weil seems to have been a good woman and fascism can be condemned every time it’s met, including on the left.

I’m sure you’ve got more to say but given that you’re getting increasingly aggressive, that’s me done.

@OwlInASack

And to think you could have simply responded, "Yes, the outrages against Palestinians should be acknowledged as well."

@OwlInASack

Heaven forbid anyone try to bring attention to this in a manner not in line with your sensibilities.

[palestinechronicle.com]

@OwlInASack

Day after day after day... with the approval of the state.

[mondoweiss.net]

1

Attacking people for how they were born is terrible.

@Gooniesnvrdie Both. [en.wikipedia.org]

0

I guess that someone forgot that the one real thing that the French had in common with the Nazis was their hatred for the Jews which has actually flared up multiple times since WW2.

Take that and add the ever growing EU sponsored Muslim population which has renewed the white supremacist movement throughout most of Europe and you get this.

But our wars and regime changes have been in the interest of who!?

1

A fish rots from the head down.

Bowers killed 11 Jews in their Temple in PA last fall.
"Bowers claimed Jews were helping transport members of the migrant caravans. He believed that those in the migrant caravans were violent because they were attempting to leave countries that had high levels of violence. And Bowers repeatedly called them "invaders."
Where do you think this line of thought came from?

Here is deleted tweet from Kevin McCarthy #1 Republican in the House, last October:

‘We cannot allow Soros, Steyer, and Bloomberg to BUY this election!’ "

The tweet shows a black-and-white photograph of a stern-looking George Soros, the Hungarian-born financier who has given money to liberal causes.

cava Level 7 Feb 12, 2019
2

It’s extremely disturbing. I don’t know how we are going to counter this wave of anti Semitiism which seems to be returning at an alarming rate. Young people who have no knowledge of the horrors of the Holocaust, and older people, some who are Holocaust deniers, seem to be conflating the Israeli State with ordinary Jewish people, some of whom are very old now and are concentration camp survivors. It’s happening in other countries, not just in France. Here in the UK, the Labour Party has been slow to condemn anti Semitic behaviour in its own ranks. The situation between Israel and the Palestinian people is dreadful, however it is being used as an excuse by some to target Jewish people who have no connection to the Jewish State, and in some cases are vehement critics of Israel.

Here in the UK, the Labour Party has been slow to condemn anti Semitic behaviour in its own ranks.

Have they really though?

I agree there is a big problem in the UK. Bt I'm pretty confident that labour party story was largely manufactured by the likes of the appalling Margaret Hodge and disgraceful Luciana Berger, who used charges of anti-semitism and racism against Jermey Corbyn (just not credible given his history) - which conveniently coincided with their long standing opposition to his left wing positions. That to me is like falsely accusing someone of racism or sexual abuse: it's a very highly charged accusation so not to be done lightly. If you do throw those accusations without foundation (and what is there here that warrants the abuse they've thrown?) then we know all we need to about the individuals indulging themselves. This has been appalling. And I'm not a massive JC fan - I Ieft the Labour party over his Brexit stance.

The story has been run and run by the right wing press but Shami Chakrobarty's report and review was the most extensive into the issue of any British political part ever. They've not been quick enought o implement all of the recommendations, but that is more logitistcs: after all 0 getting all party officials trained in anti-semitism (which they ave committed to doing: which other party has?) doesn't take two seconds.

Part of the issue to me is that the definition of anti-semitic has been driven by the likes of the Board of Jewish Deputies - who I have personally heard conflate anti-semitism with anti-Israel politics. Given their strong connections to to the conservative party, I'm really not having it.

And then we had the 100 public Jews who signed that letter calling BS on the accusation against JC, together with a couple of left wing Jewish groups who have very publicly supported him (though they aren't newsworthy apparently: the wrong kind of Jews as they noted) and I just do not buy this one. Sure - of course there have been some bad cases of Jew hatred in the labour party (though I never once experienced it). But the real publuc Jewish haterd, the Swastikas etc - that has to have come from the Xenophbia unleashed by the Brexiteers and by the charmless Mrs May with her 'go home immigrant' lorries.

I think the Labour party story been manufactured therefore, for political reasons. And - given the importance of the subject - I could hardly think worse of those who've done it.

@OwlInASack I think there’s a lot of truth in what you say, I don’t believe that JC is an anti Semite, and I’m sure there is an agenda by some to oust him, however, they have been slow to condemn and act. It goes without saying that the right wing press has capitalised, as usual, on their slowness to act. Yes, I agree that this referendum has unleaded what seems to be a tidal wave of xenophobia and racism, as well as anti-Semitism...not by Theresa May, who was a remainer, but by Boris Johnston, Nigel Farage and the other Brexiteers. The trouble is, now the genie is out of the bottle it is almost impossible to put it back in,

2

I think these attacks are responses to Israeli injustices in Palestine.

They might be, but a bad choice of response, because it appears to harken back to mid-20th century nationalism, when Jews as a people, not the Israeli state, were scapegoated.

Yes indeed. I think it's simply because the Jews are too strong to fight against in Palestine so European Jews are targeted instead.

If so thats a pretty myopic view... I think - as with our own brands of stupidity in the UK and Ireland - folks indulge themselves in victim narratives where the bad bogeyman is anyone other than their own tribe... I have zero time for this stuff - even as I can articulate the causes. In France I think the poverty of the Banlieus over decades has created the most fertile breeding ground imaginable for all kinds of crazy extremism

But, in the same way I wouldn’t excuse murder or any other crime just because I can understand it’s causes, I don’t here either.

It's interesting that you made no attempt to explain it.

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