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Hi - a question around the brou-haha over The Bell Curve and Charles Murray from awhile back.

I don't have any of the information in front of me, and am loathe to try to "study up" on the whole matter to make a comment, but in replaying some of it in my mind, there's a basic question:

If I recall, Harris said here and there that certain things were basic science and "facts". How did Harris approach this when it came to evidence of a connection (correlation? causal? dunno) between IQ and race? I ask because while I respect Harris in general, I tend to grit my teeth when scientists seem to reflect a lack of awareness that in some branches of science, what may be termed irrefutable evidence or facts may ultimately turn out to be mis-framed. I don't have any particular example in mind, but does anyone recall roughly how Harris approached this?

kmaz 7 Aug 12
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The shit spewed by Ezra Klein is a great example of Fucked News. Klein is evil. As are any who attack science without reason.

Sam is all about science. As it Murray. Too many imbeciles have gone all ad hominem instead of actually using their frontal lobes.

JacarC Level 8 Aug 18, 2018
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I asked this question:

"...If I recall, Harris said here and there that certain things were basic science and "facts". How did Harris approach this when it came to evidence of a connection (correlation? causal? dunno) between IQ and race? I ask because while I respect Harris in general, I tend to grit my teeth when scientists seem to reflect a lack of awareness that in some branches of science, what may be termed irrefutable evidence or facts may ultimately turn out to be mis-framed. I don't have any particular example in mind, but does anyone recall roughly how Harris approached this?..."

Does Murray account for, or examine, difficulties in testing for intelligence, such as language barriers? Or severely deficient educational systems which may impact a test subject's ability to respond (or are IQ tests truly immune to this?) It may be that intelligence correlates with "race", to some degree or another. As to causation I don't know. It may be that intelligence is based in genetics, to some degree or another. It may be that environmental and social factors are also factors. My impression has been that to take all questions in this area as fully settled, and to assume that there can be no possible mis-use of the results of the science, is a bit much, if that's roughly what was going on.

In any event, I didn't ask for views as to Murray's views, and I don't recall how much of them Harris agreed with, but I wanted to get an improved idea of how he (Harris) framed the science.

kmaz Level 7 Aug 15, 2018
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No real racism here. Very disappointed with all the lefters condemning science.

And concluding only stupidness.

JacarC Level 8 Aug 14, 2018
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I believe Harris just let Murray talk. It's hard for anyone to simply say that there are differences in AVERAGE racial IQ scores without being called a racist. This "coverup" adds fuel to the alt-right movement and the "left is fake news" opinion.

Admin Level 9 Aug 12, 2018

I wish that were true, but I think Harris went a bit further. This link is very critical of Harris, but setting aside that point, it captures a bit of what I heard not in listening to the actual Murray podcast, but in listening to a subsequent lengthy statement or two by Harris. Specifically, this business of saying various controversial points are just the "facts".

[angrywhitemen.org]

@kmaz I've read the entire bell curve book and heard the podcast/interview. The book seems to be well researched and matches empirical evidence. A few years ago, I looked at overall SAT scores for the US and found that 100% of the 1 point/year drop in scores is due to an increase in the hispanic population. This doesn't imply anything about genetics and intelligence. I did the research when I got tired of hearing the media says the US education system is "bad" relative to other developed countries and that our scores are going down yearly. The SAT scores of each race has stayed flat for 20 years (got data for US gov) but only the proportions of each race in the US has changed. I had thought that the billions spent in head start programs would have made an impact but seems like it doesn't. [forbes.com]

To be clear, I am open to evidence that would show these conclusions are wrong. I've not read "Inequality By Design" as mentioned in the article. Have you? The author of the article only mentions that some of the Bell Curve's sources are considered biased and not data that shows that to be true.

Thanks, it sounded like you were saying that he didn't particularly say much on the matter,.... more just about providing a forum for Murray, considering the extent to which he had been shut out of discussion. However, from my listen to Harris's podcast and from reading of that critical article in the link, it sounds to me like Harris did weigh in, at least to the point of commenting where he thought Bell was relying on claims that Harris considered, as a scientist, to be non-controversial

No, I haven't done any of the readings in this area. Much of the topic seems to me to be tedious, as Harris himself indicated (if I recall).

I am not trying to say, or find some pretext to say, that Harris is a so-so, just because he delved into this area, or because he gave Murray a forum. It does raise a flag with me sometimes, as a pet peeve, when scientists seem overly-quick to dismiss something as settled science, or do not seem aware that the framing of arguments based on the settled matters may not be sound, but perhaps if I listened more closely or at greater length, or did reading into the topic, my impressions would change of how these matters were treated by Harris.

@kmaz I agree with you that it's good to be sceptical in situations that have wide implications. I'd suggest skimming Murray's book and see how the race section is about 5% of the thesis, namely, that intelligence matters when it comes to succeeding (financially, family, health, etc). I feel many parallels with this topic and global warming. People who deny global warming is man-made avoid learning about the science and make their opinions on faith. Then again, I've a tech PhD and trust the scientific method as does Harris.

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