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I kneel before no one. No gods, no masters, no control freaks. Screw the tyrants from both political extremes, and their agendas.

SpikeTalon 9 Apr 19
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Communists and libertarians have one big problem in common: their preferred model of society works only in theory, it has so far never worked in real life.

Thibaud70 Level 7 Apr 19, 2023

@SpikeTalon A system with some minor flaws can function quite well and for a long time. Look at the political systems in Canada, New Zealand or here in Europe (Germany , France, NL, Switzerland, Scandinavia...). Taiwan or South Korea are not bad either.
By contrast, there has never been a libertarian system, let alone one that worked for a few decades. The reason is obvious: any "system" with only a minimal government would be overtaken quite soon by the human predators: gangs, mafias, clans, strongmen, oligarchs, fraudulent companies ....
Nothing human is flawless. So it's pointless to look for a system without flaws

@SpikeTalon Libertarianism had (and is having) its opportunities. Just think of Russia in the 90s. The old regime was gone, the new was weak, laissez-faire economics dominated, and the predators had their field day. Putin himself was part of a racket in St. Petersburg, where he and his buddies from the mafia gained millions. Oligarchs sprouted like mushrooms.
Or look at Africa: dozens of countries with "minimal government" (the kind that is so small you can easily flush it down the toilet , as Grover Norquist once put it). Mafias, militias, warlords, frauds of all kinds thrive...
The reason why the kind of libertarianism you are dreaming of does not exist is that it cannot exist, it's a mirage, like the perfect communist society that functions like an ant colony. But humans are not ants, therefore it's a mirage.

@SpikeTalon Your answer shows once more that I am right when I claim that communists and libertarians have more in common that they might believe: not only their ideal society has never existed, but whenever someone points out that country X has been communist or country Y rather libertarian, they both answer: but that was / is not TRUE communism / libertarianism !
Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao et al.... they just called themselves communists but what they created wasn't communism but mere tyranny, and so on. The same with libertarians: they too live in a dream, and whenever a country shows more or less signs of libertarianism, its not the TRUE sort of thing. Because the TRUE thing is a mirage, never to be attained.

But you did not tell me how in your ideal society all those human parasites and predators are kept in check if government is weak and maximum liberty for all is the highest value? If there is no FDA: who will stop fraudulent pharma companies from selling toxic drugs? If there is no EPA, who will companies stop from poisoning rivers and soils ? If there is no law and order, who will stop the mafias?

@Thibaud70 Your entie discussion is based on your theory.

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Posted by SpikeTalonI kneel before no one. No gods, no masters, no control freaks. Screw the tyrants from both political extremes, and their agendas.

Posted by SpikeTalonNeither one of the extremes, and yet the best of both worlds...

Posted by SpikeTalonSubstitute the word liberals for progressives, and that would describe me as well. As for the conservative part, the socially/theocratic (aka, bible thumpers, mostly) ones in particular.

Posted by SpikeTalonIndividuality is a dirty word to the authoritarians (both left and right) in the world.

Posted by HLMenckenFanStatist bingo

Posted by HLMenckenFanA quote from famous American libertarian journalist H. L. Mencken on government.

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Posted by SpikeTalonOne of my favorite Libertarians.

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