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I kneel before no one. No gods, no masters, no control freaks. Screw the tyrants from both political extremes, and their agendas.

SpikeTalon 9 Apr 19
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Communists and libertarians have one big problem in common: their preferred model of society works only in theory, it has so far never worked in real life.

Thibaud70 Level 6 Apr 19, 2023

No other political model has ever fully worked either, as all such systems have their flaws.

@SpikeTalon A system with some minor flaws can function quite well and for a long time. Look at the political systems in Canada, New Zealand or here in Europe (Germany , France, NL, Switzerland, Scandinavia...). Taiwan or South Korea are not bad either.
By contrast, there has never been a libertarian system, let alone one that worked for a few decades. The reason is obvious: any "system" with only a minimal government would be overtaken quite soon by the human predators: gangs, mafias, clans, strongmen, oligarchs, fraudulent companies ....
Nothing human is flawless. So it's pointless to look for a system without flaws

@Thibaud70 Then I'd say maybe perhaps it's time to give libertarianism a full and total opportunity to see how things go? Afterall, you won't know for sure whether something works or not if you don't give it a fair try? A system with minor flaws that could function well for some time might be doing so because no other alternatives were experimented with, and they are stuck with the current system, which sounds like it may or may not have been their choice?

Do know that I am not actually asking you that directly there, as I'm well aware of the fact that you hate libertarianism, in which I certainly would not seek to force such upon you.

@SpikeTalon Libertarianism had (and is having) its opportunities. Just think of Russia in the 90s. The old regime was gone, the new was weak, laissez-faire economics dominated, and the predators had their field day. Putin himself was part of a racket in St. Petersburg, where he and his buddies from the mafia gained millions. Oligarchs sprouted like mushrooms.
Or look at Africa: dozens of countries with "minimal government" (the kind that is so small you can easily flush it down the toilet , as Grover Norquist once put it). Mafias, militias, warlords, frauds of all kinds thrive...
The reason why the kind of libertarianism you are dreaming of does not exist is that it cannot exist, it's a mirage, like the perfect communist society that functions like an ant colony. But humans are not ants, therefore it's a mirage.

@Thibaud70 While there may be a Libertarian Party in Russia, the country as a whole is not currently nor ever fully was libertarian in the sense, and Vladimir Putin is far removed from being anything even remotely libertarian. That new regime after the fall of the Soviet Union and all of the corruption with Putin's cronies and oligarchs that you spoke of had nothing directly to do with libertarianism, as that sort of thing was allowed to happen due to unchecked governmental powers, powers of which enabled choice individuals to become filthy rich at the expense of the average Russian citizen. Don't believe me? Compare Russia to Ukraine, and ask yourself how long has Zelensky been in power and the guy who came before him compared to how long Putin has been in power, and you still want to convince me that libertarianism was responsible for that?

As for some of the African countries, they too suffer from out of control and corrupt governments, and the relatively few genuine libertarian movements in those countries could hardly be blamed for such miseries.

At present time, there are no true libertarian countries out there, only some countries in which have utilized some libertarian viewpoints, which leads me back to my original assertion that libertarianism as a whole has never fully been tried.-

The libertarianism I have in mind presently does not exist on a widescale due to the majority of the people who are duped into believing it could never work, and by extension they have focused their attention on other political systems that the establishment has declared to be legitimate, and as long as that's allowed to go unchallenged I suppose then in that sense libertarianism cannot ever fully exist. It's a mirage because the majority of human beings cannot see past their own biases, and thus the status quo maintains its grip on our societies. If the majority ever concluded otherwise, you would find out that libertarianism is anything but a mirage.

@SpikeTalon Your answer shows once more that I am right when I claim that communists and libertarians have more in common that they might believe: not only their ideal society has never existed, but whenever someone points out that country X has been communist or country Y rather libertarian, they both answer: but that was / is not TRUE communism / libertarianism !
Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao et al.... they just called themselves communists but what they created wasn't communism but mere tyranny, and so on. The same with libertarians: they too live in a dream, and whenever a country shows more or less signs of libertarianism, its not the TRUE sort of thing. Because the TRUE thing is a mirage, never to be attained.

But you did not tell me how in your ideal society all those human parasites and predators are kept in check if government is weak and maximum liberty for all is the highest value? If there is no FDA: who will stop fraudulent pharma companies from selling toxic drugs? If there is no EPA, who will companies stop from poisoning rivers and soils ? If there is no law and order, who will stop the mafias?

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