Yes, it's been scary all over the West here. So many fires. So much smoke!

@Umbral Yes, the smoke was soooooo bad!

You're not wrong about the past, but the change that's happening is completely different and the speed of that change has never been seen in the course of this planet's history.

There's just no credible way to deny the degree to which human behaviour is contributing. The science isn't up for debate anymore. Those that do just look extremely foolish now.

Unfortunately there's still a big part of the population that has so much hubris that they think "they know better" because they think they're smarter than the average bear. Lots of them had success in life and think that success has something to do with how smart they are and that they just know better. Not realizing that it was just inherent advantages from birth and luck that got them their things.

Things are the issue here really. These people value things. They want things. They want to keep the the things they have. Admitting man made climate change is a threat to their things as they see it. Add that to a very healthy dose of latent guilt, and there you have the typical man made climate denier.

@Umbral Too much money involved in the "science" and "consensus" not to have aroused my skepticism. Governments and brokers the world over are making trillions of dollars off of the idea of AGW, not to mention gaining massive control and power over nearly every aspect of our lives. So, yeah, many thinking people are understandably a little skeptic. Especially when I grew up in a time when they were predicting the next ice age would be upon us within the next century. Now we're "heating up". Okay. Whatever.

@Piratefish That's not being skeptical about it. That's being cynical. "Thinking" people are out there doing the science, using the scientific method. That's what a skeptic does as well.

People should understand that trying to disprove other science and scientists is a huge part of science and the scientific method. The same scientific method used in creating the man made things every person trusts their life with every minute of every day.

If they grasped just that one thing, then knowing how many scientists agree on this would scare the shit out if them.

@Piratefish It sounds extremely improbable to think that such an overwhelming consensus exists. You'd have to say that virtually all scientists in virtually all countries would comply. Not THAT many would go along with such a conspiracy. There are many selfish, greedy people in the world, but there are also very many who are not. Although skepticism is good, there's such a thing as being overly cynical too.

@MST3K There are plenty who disagree, scientists included. What I see is money and typical human behavior. Many of the most vocal proponents of AGW don't seem to buy their own bullshit anyway, if one goes by their actions. There is a good book published by the famous astrophysicist, S. Fred Singer. Take a look at it sometime. Punches a lot of holes in the idea of significant AGW. Taken with following the money, it does more than make a thinking person cynical.

But I seriously doubt either one of us is going to change the other's mind. I just think that the doom and gloom being thrown at us is pretty laughable, else why would the very people clamoring about it leave some of the biggest carbon footprints of all of us. Seems either really hypocritical, or they don't buy a thing they are trying to sell the rest of us. I think we are far more likely to see the cap and trade market bubble burst long before we ever see any serious effects of climate change.

@Veteran229 And here I believed the data when it shows that CO2 levels lag behind average mean temperatures. Huh. I'll be damned, must have been reading the data upside down. Also, plaeoclimatologists say Snowball Earth occurred when CO2 levels were more than 100 times greater than today. Hmmmmm .....

@Veteran229 Lysenkoism is a great example of this.

@Veteran229 I also find it more than a little odd that, so far, every climate model prediction has been way off when later compared to actual data, and that they constantly have to keep adjusting the models to account for their very poor predictive power.

@Veteran229 Can't make any money if the sky isn't falling.

Never mind that it is the poor and economically disadvantaged countries who will be picking up the lion's share of the costs, not the super wealthy capitalists already in economic power.

@Piratefish The public at large absorbs all the externalities which should be absorbed by the polluting culprits, and yeah, the third world as always takes it in the shorts. By the time the moneyed 1% sees the impact on expensive coastal real estate, gradually submerging, and displaced populations who can no longer purchase anything, it'll be too late to address the underlying issues. But they'll be lighting their cigars with c notes right up until ecological collapse and human extinction. Yay capitalism, right? ?

@zeuser Except that the moneyed elite are the ones behind the whole idea of AGW. Who do you think are driving the cap and trade markets into the hundreds of billions, even trillions, and making an absolute killing from it?

@Piratefish I'm not saying cap and trade is the be all of carbon mitigation at all. The moneyed elite make a killing no matter what. Success here relies on moving away from fossil fuels and towards renewable sources, and that requires taking the 1% out of policy decisions. What are the odds of that, do you think? I believe we are saying the same thing.