Would things be different if you lived in King county (besides not being around so many screwed up conservatives)? I had heard there are more options on the west side. Are they that way because they actually believe all the crap or because there are so few non-conservatives around? Birds (mostly turkeys) seem to flock together. Must be difficult for you.

@JackPedigo I think it is the TV programing and up bringing. Thanks for your support, as a loner it's not too bad. Seeing stupid is the most disturbing part. There are several in the complex who are against trump so we get the trumpettes upset when we point out trump's failings.

@silverotter11 I have been giving our discussion some thought and came up with an idea many won't like.
In the past (and probably some times in the present) I have had strong opinions about some things. One was abortion. I was strongly against it but my then partner, Sandy, supported it. We had no discussions but at events she would stop at the NARAL sites and I would walk on. The fact that she was an alcoholic and didn't want to pass on her genes never occurred to me. Later, after leaving religion and joining ZPG, I got another side of things and now not only support abortion but speak up for it and even give money. Knowledge can have a powerful influence but only if one is open to hearing things they don't want to.
Yes, it's easy to condemn others and sometimes they should be. But I try to understand people's motivation. On this site we readily criticize others for their conservative and religious beliefs and we claim the higher ground. We simply don't understand how these people can stick to their ideas so strongly.
However, to get an idea of how they see things we could look to ourselves as we often do the same thing. At my post on Dr. Michael Gregor and the bird flu only 1 person answered and that was with a "kill the message because they didn't like the messenger" response. Some things I post can be controversial and often get rude responses. People don't want to hear some things and refuse to even think about looking into them for any semblance of evidence or reason. According to Dr. Gregor this virus and all other flu viruses are linked to our food choices. They are incubated and evolve from large concentrations of birds (sometimes together with pigs). Our food choices have clearly been shown to effect a huge number of things on this planet. Our food choices can either cause environmental destruction, torture, disease and death or they could be a source of health, healing and compassion. To many liberals ones food choices are as sacrosanct as Jesus is to the religionists and they simply won't discuss this issue. Immigration is the same thing.

@JackPedigo I rememer seeing the but I did not check it out, too busy with other short term stuff. You are totally correct. Once humans learned they could alter the landscape every advancement on the shovel has destroyed some enviroment. NO surprise the food choices have a huge impact on the planet. geezzzzz
The immigration thing is a riot - who the fuck do these people think grows most of their damn food? Merit based immigration that only allows people with means or smarts will crash farming in this country.
I have my blind spots and I do try not to come off as overly opinionated but I do put some of my comments with IMHO at the end.

@silverotter11 Thank you for the candid response. I also pass over things that seem long. It depends on how much time I have. But any time I mention food choices or immigration I almost always get self-righteous blow back. Sometimes people are open to civil discussion and it becomes a learning moment (sometimes for myself as well).
Immigration is a very, very complicated issue and my marriage with an immigrant working in a public school highlighted how complicate it can be. Yes, many immigrants help harvest our food and we have some of the cheapest food among developed countries BUT there are hidden costs; money for language lessons, schools, housing, training and on and on. In Europe the western countries get their workers from the Eastern countries. To be legal a worker must be from an EU country. They come with their trailers, spend the summer working and then go back to their own countries. It is a win-win (economically) for all involved. What I have learned about this issue I could write a book (literally) and many have been written. This issue is the largest cause of population growth in the US and has a huge environmental impact. Too few are willing to see that.
I sensed an openness and thanks for understanding!! BTW I do too and am always open to discuss things as long as it sticks to the rules of civility.

@JackPedigo As you might suspect I am pro immigration, NOT just so I can have cheap food. Diversity is a wonderful thing. Being as this is apple country a friend of mine had a brother who had an orchard years ago (around the end of WWII and he would run down to the border and get Mexicans bring them back to the orchard and at the end of the season take them back. He paid them well, I do not know if they were legal or not but he always had good help and he treated them well. But he still paid them less than what he of had to pay a white person. Well, if the virus gets as bad as some fear the herd may be culled. Europe by and large does not welcome outsiders and integrating immigrants is a real issue. Canada does a good job with intergrating immigrants but any systme can only support so much and that is a FACT.

@silverotter11 A lot of people are pro-immigration and I hear diversity all the time. However, I also hear that they do the work Americans won't do which sounds like exploitation (even Seattle has Sweat Shops). I also hear people lamenting over the loss of cultures as we are become one global melting pot with lots of languages disappearing. Diversity should be about biotic diversity not cultural. The more diversity (people the more habitat loss we have and the loss of biotic diversity). Again a very complicated issue and one which requires looking into with a fully open mind. At one time I felt as you but lots of things have changed that.
I do know you are also concerned about overpopulation.

@JackPedigo We don't need immigrants to exploit, Walmart and such are really good at exploiting people here legally. Sorry just being a wise ass. It is a complicated subject and true whether we imprt 'em or grow 'em at home there are just too many people - IMHO and something has to give.

@silverotter11 Much of Europe is experiencing negative population growth which could be a good thing but they also have high immigration rates. The US is nearing ZPG but our immigration policy is adding some 2 million more people directly and indirectly. It's not just people (it should not be about people but a policy that all must live) that are a concern but the added carbon footprint. How can we ask citizens to lower their footprint while helping others raise theirs?
This is the area I feel so many idiots support tRump. They are feeling like 2nd class citizens in their own country. I saw the same thing happening in Germany in 1989 when the wall was coming apart. There was no regard to the German people (Germany is about the size of Washington with some 10 times the population). The chancellor, Helmut Kohl, lost his job because of the pushback and, later there was actual violence, homes burned and people injured and killed. I have some Syrian/Turkish friends in Germany and they were seriously worried for their safety.
BTW all the talk of a 'wall' is just obscuring a simple solution to the problem of illegality. It's called E-verify and many companies lobby to not get it passed as they want a cheap and controllable source of labor.
Wise ass aside I think you are open to hearing facts (not the fake news of t supporters) and make an unbiased opinion.
Also, I am headed to the mainland tomorrow for my monthly visit to Bellingham and TJ's. I'll be gone all day.