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Ladies, are we immodest because we're not covered up?
I read an interesting article in a local Australian rag today which said the Australian government has sponsored an islamic fashion designer who has a range of "modest" clothing. The reporter said she wasn't immodest because she wears shorts & vest tops, & I agree. It's plain insulting. She suggested the money might have been better used stopping fgm. How do you feel about being labelled immodest, & what do we do about it?

GoldenDoll 7 Feb 1
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I don't give a shit who labels me what anymore. It's their problem.

Of course. I'm just concerned about political correctness making me wear "modest" clothing.

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@GoldenDoll by fgm do you mean female genital mutilation? Because if you do I will point out the simple Act of discrimination occurred in Australia about 1996. Female genital mutilation was criminalised under the Labor Attorney-General Lavarche. The government was asked "why is this sexist law being passed? Why is male circumcision not included?" Their response was "the panel advising the government" (manginas, catholics, prurients, jews and christian or feminazi women?) "state that female circumcision involves the removal of an important organ whereas in men it is merely skin". When it was pointed out that skin is the biggest of the human organs no answer was forthcoming. The sexist religious based discriminatory legislation is still in place.
I recommend people to read the following blog to learn about the barbarity of male circumcision and its irreperable damage and harm:

[madsciencewriter.blogspot.co.id]

As for the government subsidising research into new fashion compared to subsidy for corporate theft of water, mineral deposits and coal burning pollution, we are talking montary peanuts. A new modest garment could turn into a profitable export earner for Australia - a country with a long history of subsidising General Motors and Ford to have them slap the citizens in the face and close manufacturing down.
Methinks you have been reading a report written by a poorly trained journalist obeying her publisher's edict of "stir the sheeple into hatred of Muslims".

I think your knowledge of fgm is lacking. Cutting off the clitoris (which happened to my adopted daughter) is NOT the same as removing a man's foreskin. If male circumsion involved cutting off your whole penis, I might agree with you.

@GoldenDoll Did you read the article? And was the dinl's 'G' spot also removed?

@GoldenDoll Yes I have just discovered that my knowledge is incomplete in that fgm has not only occurred in the name of Islam but also amongst Christians, protestants and Jews.
[en.m.wikipedia.org]
As for the argument of one sex's mutilation being worse than another you have got to be winding me up?
Both are barbaric acts that not only result in unneccesary deaths but also countless cripplings and deformities resulting in loss of ability to experience pleasure. About 25 years ago a superb documentary came out of the U.K. that highlighted the evils of male circumcisions. It was largely conceived and documented by non discriminatory Muslim women doctors!
IMO you should realise that a considerable amount of the violence associated with sexual intercourse arises because men have been circumcised.
Additionally The Australian Psychologists Associatiin have still not responded to the hypothesis that domestic violence by men to women may be a subconscious payback of the time the men were betrayed, when most vulnerable and without their adult consent, by their mothers having them circumcised.

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I like immodest very much.

Thanks for your in depth response.

@GoldenDoll Pardon my ignorance but I don't know what is "fgm" and why money is needed to stop it. I grew up in a very "immodest" country where "immodest" is the Norm. Every country I had visit in my life was very "IMMODEST" with the exception of Somalia. IMMODEST IS ALL I KNOW.

@GipsyOfNewSpain - Female Genital Mutilation. Look it up.

@GoldenDoll SInce you mentioned Female Genital Mutilation, I will excuse myself of the conversation since I don't qualify.

@GipsyOfNewSpain - You're not human then? Not concerned about what happens to women as long as you're ok? Gosh. And seeing as it was men who invented it, you should be educating yourself & supporting women.

@GoldenDoll Don't misunderstand me... you brought an issue that us living in america know little about. Because not happening in our backyard. I re-read what you posted and realized that Your first word was "Ladies". If you wanted to discuss how cruel FGM is and make it the problem of the issue. Should had open up with that, but I live in america where the more immodest you are the more "famous" you can be. We just elected the most virtueless human to our highest elected office. We got our own problems with immodest but they happen to be different to yours. If your object was to educate us what is going on in your country. Go ahead but the way you presented the issue... Only keyword I locked on was immodest because that is what normal men do in america. So back to your post you didn't even spelled out what now is your issue. I don't even know if you are australian because I haven't visited your profile. So without being address to me because I'm never been a Lady... I just worship them and adore them. I am immodest myself mind you... I feel nothing about being labeled immodest and I am not going to do anything about being label immodest. That's it... plain and simple. Question answered. And now for the first time in my life I know that fgm stands for Female Genitalia Mutilation in the other side of the world. I am a product of my environment and is not common practice or worry where I live. So Pardon my Ignorance on what bothers you so much. Next time Say what you Mean... Spell it out. I rather meet you in different terms and I am sure we both are Nice People.

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I have incredibly mixed feelings on this topic.

I have zero body shame and am not wrapped up in anyone's appearance--least of all mine--so I used to go about in tank tops, short shorts, and skirts without thinking about it too much--apart from enjoying my comfort on a 90° F day. I love to feel sun and wind on my skin. I enjoyed some lovely, freeing summers this way.

The rest of the year I would dress fairly "modestly", as I am generally averse to attention, and I need the warmth. Anyway I'm built like a bundle of sticks so cleavage is out of the question. But I would choose clothes that fit and flatter my figure--so I could be covered from wrists to ankles and still look amazing. (We get hot summers and cold winters with snow here.)

This was working for me until I started to notice how much side-eye I was getting from other women--especially during the summer. I wasn't showing nearly as much cleavage or wearing as short of shorts as others, but I got a lot of eyeball-hate. I didn't think there was anything at all provocative about how I was dressing, but evidently many folks, almost all women, had a problem with it. Even during the cooler months when I was more covered up.

So I don't care about "modesty", nor feel the need to cover my skin, generally--it's what I tend to prefer living in a colder climate and fashion-wise...and I know what kind of attention to expect from men when I expose certain areas and amounts of my skin (I hate attention). I used to treat my wardrobe like any other creative medium and create pleasing compositions for the artistic thrill of it--for my own amusent, with little thought to what anyone else would think.

I don't care what other people wear. I may think it's tacky to wear clothes that permit your boobs to hang out, but that's only because it treats the body like some kind of party favor when (I feel) the body should be regarded as natural and completely acceptible as is, not as having salacious parts. And if you want to treat your body like a party favor, who am I to look askance? I don't make the rules.

There's a difference between exposing skin and highlighting exposed skin, for the purpose of drawing sexualized attention. I used to unselfconsciously do the former, never the latter. I don't think many people can tell the difference, though. Not here in America. I'd like to see us accept nudity as something as natural as changing a baby's diaper but I don't know how we'd get there, with the Puritan hangover that's still afflicting us.

These days I make a point to choose oversized, shapeless clothing that obscures my figure. I'm not sure how I'll deal with the 90° F weather when it comes around again. Hopefully I'll be over it by then. I'm not the kind of person who can "just ignore it" when others are being hateful. I feel guilty when other people are catalysed to be hurtful on my account. I don't want anyone getting "bad karma" because of me. Not when there's so much of it about.

It doesn't seem to matter what my attitudes toward modesty are: people are going to project onto me their own attitudes and treat me accordingly. Perception is reality: I'm the stuck-up size 4 bitch who wants to make you feel bad about yourself and steal your husband. I don't want to deal with the fallout, so I don't dress the way I would like to dress--I dress the way that doesn't get me treated like a villain. At this point in my life, not being treated like a villian is more important to me than clothing. And I'm fine with that.

P.S. I've already heard all the "You shouldn't..." and "You should..." arguments, and I know that my attitude is not ideal. It's not designed to be permanent. This is something I need to work out on my own, and there's more to it than I've laid out here. Save yourself the typing and let me deal how I'm gonna deal.

Thanks for your response. Don't worry about karma - like god, it doesn't exist. Just another way to explain what we can't. I hope we can all be strong enough to resist when the burka becomes compulsory. X

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Hey, I think that We all have our style preferences, but to each his or her own.
Why does it matter, and who gives someone else the right to say what you wear.
Sounds Republican to me..

Hopefully we can resist when the fashion police really decide what we can wear - my friend was stopped by police in Iran because her jacket didn't cover her bum.

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If an ugly 74 year old man can say anything, it would be for you ladies to wear whatever the hell you feel comfortable with and if others don't like it they can go f@#$ themselves. My daughter went through a awkward age of thinking her legs didn't look good. We went to get her a dress for an event one day and she picked out this long thing to which I said she looked like a Mormon Polygamist. I told her there's nothing wrong with your legs and I'm tired of hearing about it. I then got her something appropriate for her age and she has never looked back. She's a shorts girl to this day. Also she's got good legs.

gearl Level 8 Feb 1, 2018
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It should not matter how you're dressed. What may be immodest for me might not be for someone else. In otherwords, it's not up to me (or anyone else for that matter) to determine how appropriate someone is dressed.

I think saggy pants are ridiculous; therefore I don't wear them
I think string bikinis look bad on most people; therefore I don't wear them.
Micro-minis are too small. Don't wear those either.
sheer fabrics show too much. Nope, that's not me.

I think you get the point. There's always going to be someone who you don't approve of. Unless you wear blinders in public you will see them. Ignore them or don't go out.

The point is what do we do if/when clothing choice is imposed by law?

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Modesty is a cultural term. It means nothing besides the social implications of the place you live in. What one culture calls modest might be considered prudish to another. Wear what you like! If you don't think it's immodest, it probably isn't. A wiser person would understand you come from another culture with different values and leave it at that.

Thanks, but what do we do when that "other culture" imposes their modest clothing ideas on us?

@GoldenDoll The acceptance of culture has to go both ways here. If they can't accept yours, well... tell them to screw off.

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the term does shift responsibilty for certain behaviors. Myself I cover up for the most part because it is a fact that a lot of people can't control their impulses.I prefer not to deal with that. just like I took responsibility for my birth control even though I think it should be a joint effort

Unfortunately women in burkas still get raped.

And "covering up because people can't control their impulses" leads to the situation in many countries where there are "Women Only" areas, allegedly for their protection, but in reality to control the women. Just like having livestock in a pen. Let's educate men to "control their impulses", not punish women because they "can't".

@GoldenDoll I know what you are talking about. YOu have your choices . Ihave mine and I do not disillusion myself we can control a lot of what other people do

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Actually the utterly most modest way is naked. Even the religious should admit that is how you were created/born. If some god would have meant that you should wear some kind of dress, he/she surely would have created you with some clothes on. Don't you think?

Gert Level 7 Feb 1, 2018

I would love it if people could walk round naked freely - that's how it always was. For me the reason they can't is because of religion (again) telling us how wicked we and sex are - so cover up!

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For anyone to label me as "immodest" is ridiculous. It doesn't matter what I'm wearing.
Calling someone immodest is a value judgment, it's not a statement of fact in any way.
Do that to my face and you're not likely to appreciate the response you'd get. Your value judgments mean absolutely nothing to me. No one gets to tell me how I should dress, or conduct myself, so long as I'm not causing harm to anyone.
Personally, I feel the Australian government just wasted a whole lot of taxpayer money.
**My use of "you" and "you're" is general and not directed at anyone in particular.

Probably you choices are, at least partly, directed by the general fashion picture. Still it's a free choice to wear whatever, you're right. Modest dressing is for, mostly women, that are suppressed anyway to behave modest in general, submissive to the one who suppresses her. It's so interwoven in religious culture that even modern Muslim women will tell you that they wear the hijab because they choose to. They often are even proud to wear it, and they don't care what others think about it. That it is a token of their culture, and actually that's quite true. But it's still an apparent example of the limitations that a cultural intertwined religion can put on someones shoulders.

I feel that too. An 11 year old pakistani boy told me I was immodest. Because I had a 3/4 length sleeve on my shirt. When I arrived at class dressed in a long black coat, hat & gloves because of the freezing cold weather, an Iman told me "Ah! Good! Now you look like a REAL woman!" This bothers me on a really deep level.

@Gert women who defend the hijab/burka are a shining example of how effective religious/cultural brainwashing can be.

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