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LINK The limits of religious freedom: America must come to grips with when faith groups limit personal liberty - New York Daily News

This lady escaped from her Amish community when she was 15 and tries to help Amish kids get out of abusive situations (and from what I’ve read of her story, just being Amish is freaking abusive to begin with).

When I escaped my community in Michigan in the middle of the night at age 15, I arrived in mainstream society laden with fears that had been reinforced through a limited Amish education that ended at the eighth grade. I’d acquired little secular knowledge thanks to a 1972 U.S. Supreme Court case Wisconsin vs. Yoder, which found that Wisconsin’s compulsory school attendance law was unconstitutional because it violated Amish parents’ rights to exercise their religion. As a result, I had no knowledge of science, sex education, or any subject contrary to Amish religious views. Had I not escaped, the Supreme Court ruling would have sealed my fate: becoming an ignorant Amish housewife.

... in New York City, Mayor de Blasio has failed forcefully to stand up to ultra-Orthodox yeshivas to ensure that these schools provide Hasidic children with a state-mandated secular education. Most recently, 30 members of the New York City Council signed a letter spearheaded by Council Members Chaim Deutsch and Kalman Yeger in opposition to regulations proposed by the New York State Education Department to provide the bare minimum general education to which they are entitled under state law.

She’s working to get the damn government to DO ITS JOB and make sure all children are required to get a secular education. I wish her all the success in the world – and I hope that includes getting rid of bogus pseudoscience books Christian homeschoolers use!

altschmerz 9 Oct 22
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0

Were you aware that marriage is mandatory in Amish communities?
Were you aware Amish Pay no Social Security Taxes?
The Amish were originally named after Jakob Ammann a biblical literalist, head of a religious sect
we now refer to as the Amish.
Until they are baptized, young Amish are not permitted to marry.
Once they are baptized, they are allowed to marry only within their own community.
The Amish believe that vanity is a sin. In order to discourage too much concern over appearance,
they give their children faceless dolls to play with.
Amish believe musical instruments encourage pride and vanity.
Between 2000 and 2017, the Amish population swelled from about 175,000 individuals to 300,000.
Amish women are expected to be wives and mothers, while Amish men perform farming labor.
In the Amish world, women are also expected to defer to their husbands’ wishes.
The Amish are famous for their policy of “shunning”, which may include various kinds of social stigma,
like a ban on doing business with them, or being forced to eat all meals at a table by themselves,
or even not being spoken to.
Amish Excommunicate. Those Excommunicated are banned from any form of communication with members of their Amish community, including family. They are also cast out of the village.
Anyone who is caught having any dealings with the excommunicated will also be excommunicated themselves.
The Amish are not permitted to use any modern machinery that requires electricity.
An Amish man is only permitted to grow a beard once they marry. In fact, it is mandatory.
Amish men, however, are not allowed to grow mustaches.
Amish Vote Republican.
Amish children are usually educated in one-room schoolhouses.
The Amish subscribe to the belief that it is unlawful to voluntarily have one’s picture taken.
This belief stems from the fact that a fixed image is unnatural, and therefore a potential inroad for Satanic influence.
Amish communities maintain a “community phone,” a single phone used to contact the English world
Amish do not participate in the military or any government-run assistance or insurance programs.
Amish run many Puppy Mills.
Multiple people who grew up in Amish communities have come forward with frightening accounts of domestic abuse and rape.
It is not uncommon for Amish to have childrens & young adults, especially women's teeth pulled by Blacksmiths. ALL of them, and replaced with dentures.

@altschmerz Isn't it though?

Did you see the news about the mennoties (amish suibgroup), who were killed in Mexico. The news reacted like "These noble religious people!"
Reality is mexican Mennotites COMPETE with the Cartels for distribution. Canada has persistant issues with Mennoites traffiking drugs for profit.

@altschmerz Yea, the mennonites in Mexico are a drug culture in the last 20 years. The youth have poor farmland and need to eat.
So it started with weed and like all other Cartels it has evolved.

1

Sorry but the constitution was designed to protect the people and religion FROM government. No one is forcing you to belive in anything. You are free to believe or not as you like. The founders came from a country where the King was also in charge of the church and used it as a weapon. So they did what they could to make sure the same wouldn't happen here. The state has no business dictating to the Amish or anyone else how to raise and teach their children. You may not like the way they do things but that is no reason to grant the government a power they will abuse. Read some history. Amish young people are given a choice to join the outside world or stay within their community. Not all of them choose to come back. One of my friends is one of those that did not go back. You NEVER want to give government the power you are saying they should have.

Norman, if as you say the Constitution was designed to protect the people and religion FROM government, the married couple in Oregon who refused medical care for their children would not have been prosecuted and convicted.

1

Right now, as the courts have ruled, there is little to be done. A mandatory testing by the state can be required - but then everyone teaches to the test anyway. Those in power want stupid sheeple to follow along blindly. Yes, it is B.S. I grew up near the Amish; I have interacted with active members and escapees. Getting out usually means leaving your family behind for good and never communicating again. I've seen a number of sad cases and abuse, including the selling of a daughter to keep a business afloat - it failed and years later the parents and purchaser were prosecuted, only after the girl had a few kids starting at 14.

1

I think every religion has the abiloity toi beocme abusive.

I once dated a guy who said his parents were like "born again Buddhists". He didn't really like to talk about it. However in my mind I pictured parents screaming something along the lines of " you are going to reach enlightenment if I have to beat it into you!".

@altschmerz When it comes to "protecting" traditions or a way of life, every religion can be terrible in how they go about doing it.

Most people don't know that Gandhi was assassinated by Hindu extremists, even though Gandhi was Hindu himself.

1

We once went to a book reading from a woman who escaped the mormon (no capital will be used) church. Some of her stories were horrific and we wondered why it took her so long to wake up but she did and wrote about it. I think the worst thing affecting our society is the fear of politicians to stand up to religious misdeeds. Starting with the leader(s) to all branches of government (IRS). There is too much fear of the backlash. Look how long it has taken to expose clergy (not just Catholic priests) pedophilia. It is a long, slow road and perhaps as more leave religion there will be a bigger outcry for politicians to be brave and do the right thing.

1

Providing an unbiased and secular education is a hard problem. Especially since we quite often have no real idea what kind of biases we hold or what baseless ideas we have. You go back less than a decade and there are all sorts of ideas and phrases that were not part of the mainstream discorse.

On top of this, the problem goes beyond objectivity and infringes on the realm of culture and society. What we teach children is a function of what we desire for our society. For example we don't teach kids how to manage their finances because we want them to grow up to be consumers who never achieve economic freedom. In fact, schools were designed to function similar to factories with bells denoting the end of a shift, everything being deliberately organized, and an evironment that promotes obedience by reinforcing hierarchical structure.

This is actually a hard problem that I can't say I have all the answers to. I don't think that teaching kids just whatever the teachers ( or even the parents ) have in mind is necessarily a good idea. I don't even know if there is a good way to optimize any of this because of the diversity of goals within our society.

@altschmerz I think we need to have more variety, unless we want to lose our edge. Giving everyone an education is definitely beneficial for society, but I don't think our system where we send almost everyone to virtually identical schools is necessarily the best way to handle education. Our world is advancing at an incredibly rapid pace, and there is no saying what kind of world the children of today will find themselves in tomorrow. Diversity is key when dealing with an uncertain future. Having more choices for parents and students alike can only be a good thing in the long term, although it will create winners and losers.

@altschmerz But it wouldn't be institutionalized.

@altschmerz I'm not an educator, although I do try to make it a point to come up with as many original ideas and viewpoints as possible, which I then throw into a pit to see which ideas come out successful. Thus there is a constant evolution towards what one might call truth. Like evolution this tends to lead to all sorts of strange but rational conclusions.

For example, my official stance on abortion is neither pro life nor pro choice, it's "throw more funding at male birth control" the objective being to cut the number of unwanted pregnancies down from millions to thousands, thus corecting the actual problem, which is the desire to have sex without risk.

3

I think possibly America just needs to get a grip generally!

1

It’s a fundamental human right for children to get a secular, unbiased, knowledge and fact based education. Religion should have no place in any classroom and any parent who wishes to deny their child the right to secular education should be prosecuted. There should be no exemptions for religious groups and home schooling should only be allowed in extremely extenuating circumstances and to a prescribed curriculum, and subject to external inspection by the education authorities. Religion should and must be a matter that legislators leave to individuals to decide on, as it’s a purely personal matter which has no place in the classroom, unless it’s on a purely academic level as a comparative study of religious beliefs and their histories.

2

This is one of the main reasons (though certainly not the only reason) I freak out when religious people tell me I should respect their right to believe as they please.
I have no respect for these abusive often evil idiots and I certainly do not believe abuse of children's minds to be a right.

2

Perhaps we need evangelical atheists knocking on amishes doors?

What I wouldnt give to see a Jehovah Witness knocking on an Amish persons door...

There is on You Tube film of Atheist missionaries going door to door in Utah spreading the good news of non belief, some the delicate little Mormite faithful are so shocked they are ready to pull a gun on them.

@altschmerz I looked it up

Fuzzy picture and first part hard to understand. Go to 5 minute mark.

@JackPedigo That was well worth the watch 🙂 I love his starting rant.

4

ALL children in this Country should have an education that equips them to live and work in the real world. That some religions believe they have the right to keep children ignorant should be against the law under our secular Government.

3

An often used work around in fundyworld is religious 'home schooling'.

4

The government doing it's job would be a first 😟

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