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Is “Objectivism” a legitimate philosophy?

... or just Narcissism with extra steps?

Anemynous 7 Apr 10
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1

It is inherently flawed and is a frankly rediculous extrapolation of Platonism aplied to abstract conceptual phenomena.

*Take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy.
Terry Pratchett

2

No. Okay, I was going to leave it at that, but it probably deserves a bit more. Any genuine philosophy has to take into account the is/ought problem; that is, the way it is v the way it "ought" to be. Objectivism doesn't. At all. It just rolls what it think are oughts and goes from there. It is based on the idea that a philosophy has no contradictions, which is nonsense, and completely adverse to how humans actually work. AND it is actually full of contradictions.

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Ayn Rand died broke and alone, living off of social security. I think that says enough for objectivism, jmo

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Absolutely not. Just like more "standard" religion, it's based on a flawed basis.
... and, shock, horror! From a hypocritical individual with questionable motives & morals & psychological imbalance. A latter-day experiment in the creation of a new religion. Alas.

MikaB Level 5 Apr 10, 2018
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I think objectivism is about morals?

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I can't pretend to be able to join the debate as to whether it qualifies as a philosophy under the definition of such. In fact, I had to look it up in order to even know exactly what it was.

However, I can say it's not a philosophy I can follow and be able to live with myself, as far as its ethics are concerned. I've seen said ethics being used to justify some pretty heinous things, and I've been bludgeoned with it, myself.

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It's very college-sophomore libertarian, I think.

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How would I know?
I am but a simple man.....

😉

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Rand coined the "fallacy of the stolen concept" -- endorsing a concept while denying the antecedent ideas that it is genetically dependent upon. The canonical example is the statement, "All property is theft". But property rests on the antecedent concept that there's such a thing as rightfully owned property. If there is not such a thing as rightful ownership, then there's no such thing as personal property, and you can't make statements about it, as you'd be stealing a concept that you actually reject.

However you have to be careful in using it, because it's easy to take your opponent out of context. "Property is theft", as originally uttered by Prudhon, was not meant as a literal blanket statement; he regarded ownership of land and factories as an illegitimate theft from the commons, so the actual statement was meant to suggest that the legitimate owner is society collectively. So he in fact had a concept of rightful ownership. Perhaps at most he was guilty of using the word "all", he should have probably said "all such", forcing the reader of the statement to seek out the context, or something along those lines.

This seems to be typical of Objectivism, to come up with facile "gotchas" based on a mischaracterization of opponents. Or at least its what I have encountered in discussion with objectivists, and what I have gathered from reading Rand's fiction. To an objectivist, all who do not endorse objectivism are oppressors of those who would be free spirits and individualists. As if that was even a binary choice.

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I have seen it used to justify people acting like total jerks. One person I knew would answer every debate with paragraphs of diatribe on the subject and quite frankly, it read like BS. Maybe that was just his take on it. For me it's like over confidence in the free market's ability to solve every problem. It starts sounding dogmatic and cult-like. But again, I only ever knew that one guy...

I think you nailed it. If someone is both an Atheist and and Objectivist, you can pretty much bet they are also a Libertarian. Which means no social web of any kind and no concern for the ecology (certainly not in any pragmatic sense, they generally have a bad grip on how quickly things are going out of control. Market forces ain't gonna cut it. Not fast enough, stakes too high). Basically it lacks an Ethos which considers "Humanity" to even be a thing at all. It is very much a "left brain" world view... a world which is not holistic but merely a sum of stoic individuals who carry everyone else on their backs. Yeah, it's used to rationalize a lot anti-social and negligent behavior. What I find is hilarious is that when you do find someone who is genuinely "pulling the world along" (in brains or deeds).. they aren't rugged individualists... they are humanitarians.

@Anemynous, yeah, philosophy or not, it's a giant FU to a huge slice of humanity.

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I've taught philosophy at the college level for decades now. Now and then someone asks about Rand and whether or not she is considered a philosopher. I'm on the fence, but if you forced me to choose, I'd say "no." The argument for her being a philosopher is that she did at least attempt a "complete" philosophy (in that she did cover the three major areas of epistemology, metaphysics and ethics over her career); for any modern philosopher, covering all these areas is something you must do to be taken seriously. The argument against her being considered a "real" philosopher is that her coverage of 2 of the 3 areas was abysmal and post-hoc (it was developed in response to criticism that she had not covered these areas, hastily contrived, and contained several areas that are arguably plagiarized). Finally (and perhaps most importantly), she demanded complete obedience from all of her followers, rather than a healthy intellectual debate/elenchus; even decades after her death, the vestiges are still with us. Her defenders tend to treat the entire sum of her work as revelation and any criticism as apostasy. Typically in philosophy we find people defending some aspects of (for example) Plato, while criticizing/improving upon others. With Rand, any criticism is a fool's errand, as her followers (sometimes facetiously referred to as "Randroids" ) will commit any mental gymnastics to defend any and all of her philosophical notions. I avoid "debating" with Randians, as I find it to be a parallel experience to debating with religious fundamentalists.

Spot on ... incomplete but interesting for me. Inspires no useful questions in itself ..

No doubt there are some militant Randists, unwilling to engage in rational discussion and dismissing other viewpoints simply as wrong, but I've found that to be the case with any group or label.

Teaching Philosophy sounds like an awesome job! I'm jealous.

LoL. I didn't know so much of her work was post-hoc. That explains a lot. I noticed that even though I read a large amount of her work... I could have just read the smallest book and still got the gist of it:

Basically, every moral decision arises from some variation of self interest.
The good is industry. Anything that interferes with industry is bad.
Religion is dumb.
Feelings are dumb...
Unless they are super tortured feelings of stoic superiority and loneliness.

There you go, now you don't need to read her books.

@MrHIT It is indeed a great job most of the time, but really it depends upon the mix of students. Some semesters I feel like I'd do it for free (don't tell my employer that!), and other times it can be taxing. Overall, though, it's the best job I've had! Sure beats my first job: McDonald's!

@Beach_slim Every semester my classes cover Hypatia, Judith Jarvis Thompson, Phillipa Foot, Martha Nussbaum, and Patricia Churchland in my Phil 100 classes. In specialty classes I've covered others. Indeed, Thompson and Churchland are some of my favorites. As to whether some question whether men are really philosophers, I must disagree with that, too. Of the "4 Horsemen", there is debate as to whether Hitchens or Dawkins are philosophers or not [to their credit, I don't think either of them consider(ed) themselves philosophers]; IMHO, I don't think either are (though their arguments have philosophical implications).

@Beach_slim No one would argue that Hannah Arendt wasn't a philosopher. Rand wasn't. She wanted to be, but she wasn't good enough.

5

I'd say yes, Objectivism is a legitimate philosophy. Quite frankly I don't care that it isn't widely loved or respected by most philosophers.

Most people I talk to about Objectivism have a hang-up about Selfishness being a virtue. To that, I say first that selfishness simply means focused on the self. People often misinterpret this to mean that you are condescending or taking advantage of others.

Is self esteem important? Self love? Self respect? Self image? Self worth? Self acceptance? Self actualization? Absolutely they are, so how the hell is selfishness a bad thing?

Objectivism promotes rational selfishness: pursuing goals and values through actions that are congruent with your best interest. Doing drugs is not rationally selfish as it is unhealthy. Price gouging customers is arguably not rationally selfish as it may drive them to a competitor. The free market involves voluntary exchange between parties for mutual benefit. If your personal or professional relationships aren't providing mutual benefit, you may need to reconsider your position or actions.

Selfishness is a GOOD thing, but you need to distinguish between rational selfishness and irrational selfishness.

I should also say I say I am an Objectivist, but am not a Randist. I do not agree with everything Rand said. I do, however, view Objectivism to be a valid, legitimate philosophy.

MrHIT Level 5 Apr 10, 2018

I agree with what you've said and would add that selfishness that is not rational could be defined as "at others expense" in a negative way. I think the primary conflict with Objectivism comes into play with altruists who believe the most noble value is that of self-sacrifice. They all view profit motive as evil. This way of thinking is very pervasive and damaging, IMHO.

@IAMGROOT well said. I try to limit words in these posts because I'm not convinced someone could adequately defend or critique an entire philosophical system in a few paragraphs. To do that would require a lengthy essay that would inundate readers. Lol.

While there are a few extreme examples where it could be rationally selfish to take action at others' expense, I generally think it is rationally selfish to create win-win situations with most people you encounter.

@IAMGROOT It seems the theory itself for me inspires this kind of question .. this is not useful for me at least. I think the theory overcomplicates by concentrating on the three aspects and personally being very n taoism for years I find it vastly incompatible .. I do however think it useful as a piece of philosophy .. I also think it has it's limits (due to the three elements).

Correct me if I'm wrong.
The definition in selfishness has two part. "Center on self" is only one. "... at the expense of others" is the other part.
Ryan claimed there was no ground for middle ground. Altruism didn't work. Middle ground is bad, so selfishness is what is left. This is her words. She definded corporations kicking native people off their land so they can exploit their resources. The pursuit of profits is one of the most important things.

Most Objectivist I talk to don't have a problem with the idea of selfishness as Ryan explained it.

I agree @JeffB can be scary sorts in general I feel. I think it takes a certain person.

@IAMGROOT Well said.

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Ayn Rand thought so.

Well sure... It's her deal. I was enamored in my 20's... but these days I see it as super-lopsided. Half an Ethos, at best...

@Anemynous I see it as incomplete ... a tiny part of the all .. It concentrates on three very personal aspects .. so it isn't going to suit all .. I find it interesting but the debates and questions it inspires are often mundane for me personally !! 🙂

@Anemynous I was there for a while also.

@Nickbeee ditto

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I think it has useful components .. i would say that.. Those components have been pre identified though so just a different angle on an old set of explanations for me maybe! maybe i should read more onit.

4

Jusy a matter of opinion. i feel I should be the one in control of my destiny and will do whatever it takes to accomplish that goal. I feel that is pragmatic and not narcisstic.

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